Attic or Not
 

I am earnestly trying to cut the cable and at the same time trying to learn about the intricacies of OTA antennas and signal capture. This forum and signal emulation tools have been invaluable. Thanks for your help and expertise. My first attempt was to try a Winegard Flatwave amped Antenna Model FL5500A. I was hoping to be able to place the antenna on top of the built in cabinet that I have my TV in. This would have placed it around 10ft AGL. Reception was spotty at best. I tried moving it around the room looking for a better location. Reception was good as long as the Antenna was perfectly aligned and in a narrow area of the living room, less than perfect results. I am wondering what your opinion would be concerning locating an antenna in the Attic. I have limited room (hip roof), but am loathe to put up a mast. Thanks again for your help.
Here is the link to my report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5134743d304345
I have a single layer of asphalt shingles over 1 x lathe.

There are very few guarantees when mounting an antenna on the roof and hiding it in the attic, will reduce that by about half. Maybe even more, depending on building materials, duct work, etc. Even worse, in the rain and snow.

Sort of like those goofy looking tinted covers that some people put on their vehicle running lights.

Give it a try and see what happens.
You have stations in multiple directions, so unless you are willing to settle for stations in a single direction, you will need to consider further options.

Any physical object between the antenna and the transmitter will affect your signal.

More objects more issues. Generally the best place would be on a mast at highest point on your roof away from trees and buildings between the antenna and transmitter(s).

The more you get from that, the more issues you run into with placement.

(There are weird exceptions that involve signal reflections, etc. but they are not the normal.)

Thanks for the replies. I realize that an antenna in the attic is risky, but I was hoping to be able to make an educated decision based on the experience and wisdom of guys who've been there. Is there an antenna combination that I should try in the attic that if unsuccessful can be successfully relocated to a mast? Would a pre amp like the CM7777 be helpful? Has anyone successfully paired 2 DB4's in order to pick up signals from opposing antenna's without using a rotor?
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...c2-250x250.jpg

Thanks again

I think I found the answer to this one in other posts here on the forum... not likely

Any thoughts on the Clearstream 2V?

An alternative to a rotor, would be an A-B switch.
Both of these, would require a tuner that is capable of "Adding" channels, VS a complete rescan.
W/ a rescan, you would lose any channels that were previously found from the other direction.

Which stations, other than those in a generally northerly direction, are on your "must have" list? Which are on the "like to have but not too important" list?

What are the surroundings outside your attic like? Can you achieve relatively unobstructed views in the requisite signal path(s)? The online/interactive tool is very useful in helping you visualize this. Switch to the satellite view, turn on the lines, then zoom/pan and drag and drop the balloon onto your rooftop. If the display switches to an oblique view, turn it off (the 45° control is under the "Satellite" control). Now, you can see the various signal paths overlaid on a view of your roof, and, by adjusting the zoom level, your surroundings including trees and buildings that were visible whenever that aerial view was captured.

I found your thread's title to be ironic as I use almost the exact same thing as the title of a tech tip I wrote a while back. I've attached it to this thread, you will likely find it to be enlightening.

We would like to reliably receive channels 25.x, 49.x, 66.x, 12.x, 46.x, 4.x, 40.x, and 5.x

Anything beyond that we would consider a bonus.

The satellite view pretty much shows obstructions every way we look (mainly trees). I'm not sure how clear the path has to be in order to compensate with a stronger antenna, but we live on 2 acre lot with trees blocking a clear path to the transmitters within 40 ft. in all directions except for eastward.(not good)

These trees are pretty mature and probably well over 30ft tall.

The "Flatwave" antenna picked up the stations that we wanted when placed in a specific area of our living room, but wasn't usable because of limited mounting options.

Is the reason that the Flatwave worked because of the fact its winter (no leaves)?

Is there hope for any antenna combination?

I don't really see any issues with being able to pick up those stations except for WDIV NBC 45(4.1). You're saying you got that channel with a flatwave in your living room?
What's wrong with the NBC station next to you?

To get a chance at that channel I doubt the C2V is going to be good enough. I had a similar channel I needed and the C2V wasn't strong enough outside going through a couple trees as well. I ended up with a C4V and its working great. An AD Juice preamp helped (xtra 10% signal) as well but I had a good signal without it but again, I'm on the roof. I think you have a good shot in the attic as long as you don't have metal objects in front of it and aim it at 143 magnetic. But be prepared to move it to the roof.

25.x, WEYI NBC & CW, NM 56.3 dB, 22 degrees
49.x, WAQP Ind, NM 54.8 dB, 329 degrees
66.x, WSMH Fox, NM 53.4 dB, 327 degrees
12.x, WJRT ABC, NM 41.4 dB, 330 degrees
46.x, WBSF CW & NBC, NM 35.3 dB, 1 degree
4.x, WDIV NBC, NM 6.3 dB, 136 degrees; you don't need that, you already have 2 NBCs
40.x, ? I don't see that; what is the callsign?
5.x, WNEM CBS, NM 32.2 dB, 1 degree

http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...pe=dBm&height=
click on callsign to see networks

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1453047259

That often helps. It also has a built in preamp. A preamp can make it possible to receive channels that are 5 dB weaker.

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...pslzl9olr6.png

Try the C2V in a temporary setup in the attic in several locations with the antenna aimed about 350 degrees true, 357 magnetic. If that doesn't work, add a preamp like the Antenna Direct Juice or Channel Master 7778. The 7777 would probably be overloaded.

If that doesn't work, you will have to go outside and higher.

WLMB 40.X is not going to happen. He won't get 4.x with a C2V. If it's a must I still stand by my choice of the c4v with the vhf add on at best buy. A db4e would be another good choice but he'll need to add a vhf antenna also.

I agree; it's NM of -19.5 dB is below the thermal noise floor (NM -15 dB) and it is a VHF-Low channel. But, there is another virtual channel 40 which you can see on the rabbitears.info listing. He didn't give the callsign, so we don't really know what channel he means.
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...pe=dBm&height=

He doesn't need it, he already has two NBCs, and it's in another direction.

This is what your FM signals look like. They probably are not strong enough to interfere with TV reception. The Juice preamp doesn't have an FM filter, but it does have a 4G LTE filter to reject cellular interference that is moving into channels above 51. The 7778 does have an FM filter.

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/d...4/Radar-FM.png

Hmmm.... WKAR and WLPC share the same frequency... Seems odd

I'm assuming he wants that channel for a reason... But I do agree with you.

The stations are about 90 miles apart and cover different markets:
WKAR is in East Lansing with a directional signal that avoids Detroit.
WLPC in Detroit is a low power station with a limited coverage area.

We will probably see more channel arrangements like this over the next few years with the FCC's repacking of the TV broadcast spectrum.

Hopefully it won't create problems.

Channel 4.x has local news for the area where I work. If I can't get it (even with heroic measures) it's not a show stopper.

Just to make sure I'm clear on your recommendations, which antenna is the most conservative (has the best chance of being successful).

The c2v, c4v, or db4e?

Would it hurt if I went ahead and put the pre amp in whether I need it or not?

Which vhf antenna should I get?

Thanks again for your help.

You only have one channel that is VHF but I think a UHF only antenna will still give you channel 12 (WJRT). Worth a shot before purchasing the add on VHF antenna. If you want channel 45 (WDIV) then I'd go with the DB4E and aim it at 143 MAG. This antenna has a bit more gain on channels above channel 24. The stations on the backside of the antenna aimed at 143 should be strong enough to be picked up on the backside. Depending on you cable length you might need a pre amp. I'd try without first. I ended up getting the best reliable signal for my situation with only a powered distribution splitter since I'm going to multiple TVs.

I think that is your best chance at getting all the channels you want between the 3 antennas.
If you have a BestBuy local to you, you could always try the other 2 first since they have a good return policy.

Try the C2V in a temporary setup in the attic in several locations with the antenna aimed about 350 degrees true, 357 magnetic. Add a DB4e with preamp aimed at 4.1. Use an A/B switch to select which antenna needed. An alternative would be to connect the C2V to the TV antenna input and connect the DB4e to a separate tuner that connects to the TV aux input. Another alternative would be to combine both antennas with a custom Tin Lee AC7 combiner for NBC real channel 45.
http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-custom...kup%20Info.pdf

Don't you think that the channels are strong enough to pick up on the back side? I'm picking up channels half his channels strengths on the backside of my C4V. Using A/B and multiple tuners just seem over the top for his report IMO.

Be cautious, BB has only a 14-15 day return window unless you've paid for one of their upgraded "memberships". Walmart has the C2V and allows a 90 day return. We, of course, if ordering directly from us, also offer a 90 day return window.

Yes you are correct.... it is a longer window. Amazon has a good policy also. Point is if local antenna are available they can be tried and easily returned within the return policy. It doesn't take more then a day to know if an antenna is going to work well enough.

Yeah, I know, but keep in mind that I deal (every week) with customers who let time slip away and come to us when they find that they've exceed their retailer's return period.

Just keep an eye out for those return windows.

Understood.... I appreciate all your input and help.

I have no idea how strong the signals are in his attic. The signal loss in an attic can vary all over the place. That is why I told him to make a temporary test in the attic.

Frustrated Cable Cutter asked for a conservative estimate to have a good chance for 4.1, and that's what I gave him.

Thanks gents, I really appreciate your expertise. I am going to purchase the c4v and try it in the attic. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'll just string the coax through the house. I'll let y'all know how it turns out.

Please be aware that the C4V has a different horizontal beamwidth pattern than the C2V. It might be a little more difficult to find an aim for the C4V that will cover 327 to 22 degrees.

The C2V claims 70 degrees
https://www.antennasdirect.com/clear...ntalplane.html

The C4V has a more narrow main lobe but 2 secondary lobes to make it a little wider
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...-sellsheet.pdf
page one shows a narrower (43) main lobe, but page 2 claims wide (70) coverage

The peculiar pattern with the two notches (nulls) that changes with frequency is the result of horizontal stacking. This pattern that has nulls is used in the Two-Antenna Trick on hdtvprimer.com with the phase reversed.

You can also see it in the pattern of the DB8e, which is two 4-bay antennas side-by-side.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical%20Data%20PDF's/DB8E-TDS.pdf

On UHF, the HPBW of the C4 is ~43° on channel 14 and ~31° on channel 51.

The addition of the VHF module has no known discernible effect on the UHF patterns.

Thank you for confirming my concern about the UHF beamwidth he needs when his antenna is aimed North.

The point of this antenna is to point south towards the virtual 4.1 channel and the backside to pick up the northerly stations. For reference I have mine easily picking up a 55 degree spread (332degrees to 28degrees) and stations half the strength he has being picked up on the backside. Even if it has to be installed on the roof.... it's better then putting up 2 antennas with a tinlee filter or A/B switch or two tuners. IMO there is nothing conservative about that.
If he has no desire to pick up Virtual 4.1 then I'd surely say use the C2V pointed to the north.

shoman94:

Frustrated Cable Cutter presented his problem to us.

Stereocraig, rickbb. and Tim gave their opinions.

ADTech gave his opinion.

I gave my opinion.

You gave your opinion.

It's Frustrated Cable Cutter's antenna and his money. He gets to decide how he wants to do it.

I have no desire to force my opinion on anyone.

Every reception problem is unique. What works for you might not be the best solution for someone else.

I'm not either but I'm trying to use this as a learning opportunity from experts for myself. I'm trying to decipher what leads to the recommendations you guys make vs what I have experienced in my own setup. I don't have the knowledge or background you guys have and I've been stating why I think certain things will work. Not having the "why's" bugs me I guess. lol

The point was not to drive anything down anyone's throat. Sorry if it came across that way.

Thanks so much for your help rabbit73, being a layman I was affected by the advertising. I am definitely going to take your advice and get the c2v, it's cheaper too! I really have much to learn. Thanks again.

Advertising? lol I'm just giving my personal experience because I've own both.

I wasn't alluding to anything you've said shoman. I appreciate your input. I was talking about the mileage claims on Amazon when they advertise the antenna's capabilities . I just figured further is better, apparently not always the case.

Thank you.

Yea it's not all about distance. The C2v is a good choice of you are not going after that distant channel you mentioned. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Just wanted to offer a hardy thanks for all the help that I received on my antenna selection, I have the Clearstream 2V permanently mounted in my attic and am enjoying OTA HDTV with stellar results. I am currently picking up 25 channels with the majority over 50% signal strength. The lone VHF channel is over 90%. I plan to split the feed to 2 TV's, any recommendations as to which hardware I should use? I am also considering adding the cm7778, any downside to that?

That sounds good.

Since I don't know the signal loss in the attic, what TV you are using, how low the per cent reading can go and still have good reception, and how long the coax lines are to the two TVs, you will need to do some testing.

You have several alternatives. First try a 2-way splitter. If the signals get too weak after splitting, add a Channel Master 3410 before the splitter. It is also possible to use the 3410 as a preamp near the antenna, feeding it power from down below with a PCT-MPI-1G power inserter. Split after the power inserter.

The other alternative is to try a 2-way splitter and if the signals are too weak after splitting, add a CM7778 or Antennas Direct Juice preamp near the antenna and split after the power inserter down below. The CM7778 has an FM filter. The Juice does not, but it does have a 4G LTE filter to reject cellular interference that is moving into frequencies just above channel 51. You can add an FM filter to the Juice, but it probably will not be necessary after looking at your FM signal report.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/d...4/Radar-FM.png

Juice pre amp
 

From PM by Frustrated Cable Cutter
QUOTE
Hey Rabbit73, what has been your experience with the juice pre amp? I added one to my set up in order to enhance the signal prior to adding a splitter and got terrible results. I went from receiving 25 channels without the amp to only 6 with it. The results were the same whether the power inserter was plugged in or not, leading me to believe that something was wrong with the pre amp. I returned it to AD and asked them to bench test it and let me know the results, but they haven't gotten back to me yet.
END QUOTE

I'm sorry to hear that you are having trouble. I don't have any personal experience with the Juice, but I have used many other preamps. I suspect partial overload of the tuner that creates IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) spurious signals that can damage your weaker signals.

Which 6 were you still receiving?

I have attached your question to your previous thread so that ADTech can have a chance to help you.

Please give us the details of what is connected to what in your test setup so that we will have a better chance of helping you. Like, where was the splitter located?

Doesn't that sound like the power inserter could be bad?

I use a juice and it works great...