Looking to cut the cord and install an antenna
 

Guess that should be install a better antenna in the title.

Not sure if this is the right forum spot or not.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03c9b03c21e1

I am hoping to receive signals from both Indianapolis, IN and Louisville, KY. I want both for NFL broadcasts as my team, more often than not, is on in one of the markets if not both. That would allow me to leave DirecTV and not pay for Sunday Ticket. Just as a side, I actually like DirecTV, I don't like my monthly bill.

Currently I have an AmazonBasics antenna and the amp that came with it. http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-A...0290967&sr=1-4
It's mounted about 13-14' above the ground. Coax run to both TV's with this setup is about 75'. I have it facing SE/NW and I pick up several channels in Louisville clearly. My Tivo shows a signal strength of 55-60 on them. There is a corner of a house and some electrical lines in the path but otherwise very usable minus ION and ABC being glitchy on clear days.

I played with the signal meter and found it could recognize Indianapolis stations but the signal strength was only 15-30 with no pictures. That lead me to speculate (hope really) that with a better antenna for the distance and possibly raising it up that I might be able to get both. I'd prefer something that would allow all channels at the same time from both directions but I assume dual antenna would be required if so.

Been doing some research and was thinking maybe I could mount the antenna on the roof using an eave mount. That would add another 6 feet just to the roof plus however high the antenna is positioned about it.

Any suggestions on what would be the best solution or if this is possible?

Generally speaking higher is better, there are exceptions and sometimes you need to move the antenna around AND up and down to find that sweet spot.

I don't know anything about that antenna, but just looking at the picture, I think you can do better with a known brand and roof mounted.

Mounting the one you have on the roof and adding an extension to the mast to get it higher won't cost much and might do what you want. A newer, (better), antenna won't cost that much either.

That antenna is an Amazon-exclusive version of the Mohu Sky 60. It's only difference is cosmetic (the plastic housing). I've found it, at best, to be less than mediocre once the reception conditions start to become challenging.

Please create and post a new plot using your exact location as your initial plot is flagged as not being accurate (Google could not geocode your address) . Instructions are in http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=14508

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03e0da24271e

I hope this helps.

The AmazonBasics has worked well through spring and summer so far. Not the strongest of signals but the picture has been good. How does winter weather affect TV reception?

With digital, all it takes is "just good enough" to have perfect or near perfect picture and sound quality. Digital cliff effect.

If your summertime reception was affected by seasonal foliage, that problem goes away until spring.

If you've been receiving sporadic out of market or distant reception during the summer, that usually goes away during the winter as the atmospheric enhancement effects subside and go away.

Realistically, reliable reception of the Indy stations at over 70 miles is probably going to be somewhere between extremely challenging and "ain't going to happen" even if you do everything right as far as antenna and amp selection, mounting site selection, and are able avoid any impairments in the immediate signal path out in front of the antenna. There are a lot of variables and the outcome depends on a number of things that may not be within your control such as buildings, trees, potential mounting height, willingness to deal with a very large antenna, and so forth. It's also going to depend on which of the Indy stations are going to carry the games that are of interest to you. Of course, and ESPN/NFL Network games won't be available with an antenna.

So, do you have a very clear line of sight to Indy? If not, you can expect reception to be negatively impacted.

Can you either handle a very large, 14' long antenna, or are you more in the camp that a smaller antenna with its lesser reception is the needed compromise?

Well, I had hoped for better news. I planned to compensate with Sling TV for ESPN.

To be honest, I am not sure about LOS. I have not climbed up on my roof to see. For the most part from street level there is not really any obstruction it seems that direction.

I had resigned myself to the idea that a large yagi style was going to be needed to get Indy stations. If there is a smaller antenna that has the same kind of range that would be great.

On a side note, some of my neighbors have old OTA antennas on 30-40 foot towers that have probably been there since the 70's. I'm a bit jealous.

Picking the ABC from 70 miles to show to the profile shows you down in a RF shadow. Not looking good to get that channel. Might be why your neighbors have 30 to 40 towers.

Transmitter Profile Detail

WRTV-DT (Digital)
Channel: 25 (6.1)
Network: ABC
Maximum ERP: 1000.000 kW
Coordinates: 39.899068 -86.201017

https://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/...RE-WRTV-DT.png

NOTE: The vertical dimensions in this profile have been exaggerated in order to make the terrain features more visible. This is merely an approximation based on the information available from the FCC database.
WRTV-DT
Effective ERP: 1000.000 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 72.1 miles Azimuth: 12 degrees Compass: 17 degrees

Sorry to be such a noob with all of this but can you expand on what you mean? And maybe how to interpret the image on the details page?

I'll try.

Here is the map:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1440790881

If you click on a callsign in your tvfool report you will see the profile. The transmitter is at the left end and your location is at the right.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...2&d=1440791231

The black arc that you see at the bottom of the image is the curvature of the earth, which starts to interfere with the signal at about 70 miles.

The color code for the image is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...id=15&Itemid=1

In very rough terms, the colors can be broken down as follows (not related to Antennaweb):

- White is extremely strong. Beware of signal overload on amps.
- Red-yellow-green are all quite strong. You can expect reasonable coverage with an indoor antenna.
- Cyan is where it's advisable to move the antenna up to the second floor or attic.
- Blue is where it's probably necessary to install a good antenna on the roof.
- Purple is quite weak and you really have to work at it for any chance of reception.

Here is the coverage map for WRTV ABC. You can see that the signal is pretty weak by the time it gets to your location. The color code is the same.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...3&d=1440791858

Thank you very much for explaining that. I missed it on the site. This looks like I'd have to install an antenna tower for my best shot and cross my fingers I could pick up the signals.

You are welcome. The fact that you were able to get some Louisville stations is promising. WHAS ABC real channel 11 from there could be received with better quality using a different antenna and a preamp. The Amazon antenna probably isn't very good for VHF-High channels 7-13. Unfortunately, ION is in a different direction.

Here is a close-up of the tvfool profile at your location that shows the colors better:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...4&d=1440805432

Another way to demonstrate the Indianapolis problem is to use elevation profiles:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...5&d=1440805752

adding the antenna heights:


http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1440805780

but the earth isn't flat:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1440805803

Thanks. This is all a little disappointing. As a kid we had OTA until I was 12 or 13. Always thought we watched Indy channels so I was hopeful I could do this. I'd hate to spend a ton of money to install a tower and get nothing in return.

Where do I find these terrain charts?

The Indy channels were analog then. You could watch them when they were very weak if you could tolerate a little snow. With digital signals it's all or nothing because of the "Digital Cliff," as ADTech mentioned.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...8&d=1440812083

The ones in color are ready made on the tvfool report. The black and white ones I created using this web site; it takes a little time to learn how to use their software.

http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html

I don't consider Indy to be impossible, just very difficult and expensive if you are willing to settle for unreliable reception and are willing to risk failure.

If you have a friend there he could stream it to you on the internet with a Slingbox.

Maybe I should write a nice letter to WRTV and ask them to raise their tower up a few feet for me. :)

I'll have to play with the site see how WXIN and WTHR look to my location.

Thank you!

Thank you for all the work you did rabbit73. I can't consistently get ABC in Louisville and looks like even less chance out of Indy. Played around on the heywhatsthat page. I think I got it set right with the 2 stations of most importance (WXIN and WTTV) in relation to NFL games. WXIN seems to have the same possible issue as WRTV but WTTV looked to be a better possibility.

I'm going to ask the lady across the road if she uses her antenna. It looks newer (not all rusty as the two behind me across the alley) so she may actually use it.

Just curious, given all the data in the thread does it look like I will need a tower mounted antenna to have a chance at Indy stations? Or would I have a chance with something like a DB8e mounted on the roof? Just looking for some expert suggestions on what I would probably need.

It would certainly be much less expensive to try a roof mount first. All you'd be out is the cost of the mount and a mast pole.

This is where I had my Amazon antenna. My plan today was to move it to the top of the house:

http://www.tfstudios.com/images/IMG_..._094639147.jpg

This is what the SE facing part of the antenna perspective:

http://www.tfstudios.com/images/IMG_...604881_HDR.jpg

By the time we got everything in order it ended up being the afternoon. Unfortunately it was stupid hot today and the roof temp was ridiculous. So back to Lowe's for some conduit. We were able to approximate the height of the antenna on it's normal mount. (sorry bad picture) It's not done properly I know, this is completely temporary setup for testing purposes.

http://www.tfstudios.com/images/IMG_..._202224311.jpg

When we set it we put the flat sides directly N/S instead of NW/SE. I also added a preamp I found at Menards and removed the Amazon amp. This afternoon the weather was completely clear. Doing a check with the Tivo I still got all the Louisville except one AND the displayed signal strength went from 55-60 to 70 or above. I was able to add WTTV from Indy but none of the other channels came in then. They fluctuated up and down with no stable signal.

As of 10:19 tonight, WRTV, WTHR, WFYI, WNDY, WTTK, WHMB, and WXIN from Indy all coming in solid.

My plan is still to move it to the top of the but if I put the original short J pole on there will the roof affect reception from the north?

Thanks for the photos.What preamp did you get? Is it near the antenna or down at the lower end of the coax?
That sounds like a big improvement to me.
I'm not sure which way is north after looking at the photos. Which direction does the side of the house in the third photo face? Without knowing that, my answer is if the present location isn't affected, then the planned location will not be affected.
Ah, yes: I see towers in photo 2.

The coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1441550522

The preamp is a RCA TVPRAMP1R. Relatively inexpensive so I figured I would experiment a little. I impulse buy. I have it mounted about 6 inches under the antenna.

About an hour or so later most of the Indy stations dropped off. :( Signal still good with the others though. At one point I had, for a few minutes, solid reception of channel 21 out of Fort Wayne which is 100+ miles away. That was weird.

That's the back of the house. It faces south.

I don't think either of those houses use those antennas.

I talked to the lady across the street with the antenna tower(not pictured). It's a bit shorter but only installed a few years back. Said it was never used and told me I could have it if I could get it removed safely.

You should jump on that, or put up a gable end mast pole mounting system with 15 to 20 feet of mast and guy wires on your roof. Add a "real" antenna and you may be surprised at what you can pick up.

Your improvements with just moving it up higher indicates to me that it's worth the trouble to go for it.

What kind of real antenna are you suggesting? I've been spending a lot of time at Amazon reading reviews of different antennas. And it's not helping. :D

Reading reviews on Amazon is the absolute WORST possible way to select an antenna. Antenna selection is more of a science and most reviewers are a very, very long way away from being scientists. Reviews set unrealistic expectations because the reader cannot possibly know the factors that lead to either success or failure for any particular customer.

Start with your precise location and a defined list of requirements and capabilities/restrictions. Someone who is experienced can then go over those lists and determine what is and isn't doable and what's needed to try and pull it off. As already noted a few days ago, you prospects are very poor for your stated goals.

The biggest restriction at the moment is that it will need to be roof mounted. Though my neighbor offered to give me her tower I do not have the capabilities to take it down, move it and reassemble it. I would have to outsource that to someone and I doubt I can afford that at this time. Of course I am also assuming it would be expensive. I have had e-mail conversation with a local guy who stated he does antenna installation. Though he wasn't very forthcoming with information I may inquire with him if that is work he performs.

I would prefer not to have to mount a 12' long antenna if there are other options available. A roof mount antenna option that will continue to allow me to get the stations I have and give me the best possible chance at my desired goal. rickbb suggested a better antenna with 15-20 of mast with guy wires. Guy wires, outside of knowing their basic function, is not something I have ever messed with. I'm not a handy man either, at least not a quality one. Couple limitations there.

Indiana weather can be fickle. It's cold in the winter and snowy. Spring and early summer gets very heavy storms with pretty strong winds so whatever I did would need to be able to stand up to that.

I don't know if I answered the list of requirements and capabilities/restrictions properly. Let e know if I didn't.

How about a ground mounted mast. It would be more secure than an eave mount, but less expensive than a tower.
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/AntInstallGuide.pdf
page 12

Thank you for the documentation rabbit73.

How high can the mast be on a ground mount (if I missed that in the PDF I apologize)? I've attached a picture of the side of my house. I was thinking that a ground mount could be closer to the actual entry point to shorten the coax run. The gas line may be a problem as I currently do not know where the utility comes in from. The biggest concern of mine would be mounting that close to the electrical lines coming to the house and whether that is safe or not.

http://www.tfstudios.com/images/IMG_...244087_HDR.jpg

If you look in the distance you can see the tower my neighbor may or may not be willing to part with for free.

Better to have the mast on the south side away from the power lines and so that the top of the mast would be clamped to the peak, your highest support point, to avoid the need for guy wires.

Downside to south side is that is my deck. Gives a somewhat solid base, but a base I plan on tearing out one day and building a patio. Could always drill a hole to place through. There is a base of landscaping rocks underneath.

This is the way KevinT did it, but the highest support point is pretty far down from the top.

http://www.highdefforum.com/1387304-post20.html

http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hd...nna-amp-2.html

Any thoughts on actual antennas?

Yagi like the RCA ANT3038XR (just an example)? This is where my reading Amazon reviews comes in. Sometimes the 1 star reviews have comments that have nuggets of info that may or may not be correct but open questions. Is this type of antenna better for VHF?

Or a bowtie like a DB8e with a secondary VHF be a better option to try?

I can't find any specs on that antenna, and I found two different images for it. It looks like it might also cover VHF-Low (real channels 2-6), which you don't need.

Seems like you want to concentrate on Louisville, use your RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp, and switch to another antenna. The weakest signal you need is WHAS ABC real channel 11, so the antenna must be for VHF-High and UHF aimed at 140 degrees magnetic by pocket compass, not a smart phone compass. The smallest antenna you can get away with is the Winegard HD7694P. The 7697 would be better for 1 and 2Edge signals; the 7698 is probably bigger than you need. Except for your tests, it's difficult to predict the results with the possibility of trees and those tall towers visible in the background, but they were probably necessary for Indy, not Louisville.

Your concern is justified, it wouldn't be safe.

That would work, but most of the VHF-High only antennas are no longer being made, so we are left with combo antennas.

I like the outline typeface you used on the photo in your post #26. It works well on light or dark backgrounds. I don't have an outline typeface in any of my software. What is the name of the typeface font and where did you get it?

Thank you for the response. I'll check out the Winegard antennas, do some reading today. Still trying to decide about the ground mast idea and if I want that on the deck area of my house.

Getting all the networks from Louisville would be ideal, covers the TV shows I like plus all the various sub channel stuff like Cozi and MeTV. The two Indy stations I'm still most concerned with are WTTV 48 (4.1) & WXIN 45 (59.1) for NFL reasons. WTTV comes in fine but I think it's transmitter is a lot closer. WXIN seems to come in after 5-6 pm fine, but not before that usually.

WRTV 25 (6.1) documented earlier in this thread comes in fairly consistently all day. Go figure.

I actually did that in Photoshop. The type style is Tahoma. I got the outline by rasterizing the text and then adding a line around it.

Yes, I'm still working on this.

Is a ground mount a way to install an antenna without having to get on your roof? I climbed up there to test out how comfortable I was. Yeah, not happening.

Yes, you can put it where you were going to put your original antenna.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ante...OcJsQ&dpr=1.25

Cool. If I was using my deck as a base it's about 15 feet to the peak. Figuring a need to having the mast taller than the house would you use maybe a 25' telescoping mast?

If the top of the mast is 5 feet above the peak, and the joint at the bottom of the top section is below the bracket at the peak, that would be OK. If the top of the mast is 10 feet above the peak, it would depend upon where the joint at the bottom of the top section is located. If the joint at the bottom of the top section is above the peak, then the mast would need guy wires, which you probably don't want to mess with.

I finally got a different antenna up. Decided to see if the bowtie style db8e worked well. Had someone do the install as I discovered I was uncomfortable standing on a roof. One panel is facing Indy, the other Louisville.

http://www.tfstudios.com/images/IMG_..._150207175.jpg

Using the Tivo, the signal was a bit improved on all the stations I usually got from what I remember. Should have done a test before starting.

The installer added a FM trap. I now pick up 11 out of Louisville. Strength shows 42 but it stays very consistent.

Channels 6 and 59 from Indy are more consistent during the afternoon test but the picture stills drops a little. Signal meter shows fluctuating from 40-49.

He recommended getting a better preamp. He thought he had one with him but he didn't.

I also have a ClearStream 5 that we didn't set up. He felt splitting the signal more may have more negative effect on what I do get for any gains on the VHF channels I'm not getting.

Would this antenna still pick up signal from the backside if both sides were facing the same direction?

To receive signals from both sides you would need both panels aimed in the same direction AND remove the reflectors from both.

Both panels aimed in the same direction makes the DB8e one of, (if not the), highest gain UHF antennas you can buy.

Thanks for the reply. Not sure I want to do that. So far pretty good. Had college football on WRTV 6 from Indy on all afternoon, very minimal issues. Couldn't say that a week ago. WXIN still comes and goes a bit.

Messing around today with this.

http://www.tfstudios.com/images/IMG_..._173948016.jpg

I put the ClearStream 5 up, pointed towards Louisville and direct connected to a TV. Was able to pick up 11 (VFH) and 32 (UHF) clear. Not sure if a preamp would help reception but I may connect it to mine tomorrow and see what it does. (can you tell I'm having fun just experimenting?)

Is there a way to combine two antennas without db loss? Or a way to compensate? Looking at the numbers suggests to my newbie knowledge base that WRTV and WXIN could be lost if I tried to combine them.

Ok, per the installers suggestion I swapped the RCA preamp for a Stellar Labs that he usually uses.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2465-/30-2465

Unfortunately did not change my reception but no big deal. Fairly inexpensive test.

Today I took the RCA preamp and connected to the C5. I ran it directly to a spare TV and did a channel scan. I picked up clear (though only did a few seconds each) all the channels from Louisville. Yea! But I also picked up 2 channels from Indianapolis that I did not expect.

If I pointed both sides of the bowtie towards Indy and tried to combine it with the C5 pointing towards Louisville am I going to run into problems with both antennas picking up signals from the opposite direction?