Help in Western Montana.
Ok so here's the deal and this will be long. I started by using cheap bunny ears and picked up one station, so I though what the heck let's see what we can do with a better antenna. My first choice was the Antennas direct Clearstream 2-V long range UHF/VHF antenna, without doing a tvfool check. The results, I picked up NBC no problem which didn't surprise me since I can get that one with the rabbit ears, and if I angled the antenna at about 45 degrees I picked up ABC/FOX even though that one comes up as grey extreme measures needed. If I took out the angle I picked up CBS/NBC but lost ABC/FOX, and couldn't get PBS at all. So I decided to add the RCA TVPRAMP1R, this gave me a stronger signal for the above mentioned channels but again it was either CBS/NBC or NBC/ABC/FOX and no PBS either way. Next I tried the ClearStream 5 VHF Ultra long range and nothing at all, even with the pre-amp. I'm now using the RCA ANT751, which I understand is also know as the winegard EZ HD Antenna with the RCA pre-amp. I'm able to pick up PBS with a signal of 40 according to my tv screen and 70 for NBC, I can move it slightly and get CBS/CW as well but when do that PBS goes out. I know there is a spread between PBS/NBC and the rest of the stations, and probably can't get all the channels without an antenna rotator. So the main thing I want to know is it possible to get an Antenna that will at minimum pick up NBC,CBS,ABC,FOX or is what I have the best I'm going to get signal wise? Here is my tvfool report, http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae259b3338d1
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The signal levels shown in your report suggest you need to use a large antenna with UHF and High-VHF capability or a combination of separate single band antennas.
Given the rather extreme terrain in the Missoula area, the accuracy of a prediction may be affected. Your reception experience thus far is encouraging. Consider the Winegard HD7698P pointed at 314° per a real compass. If you have more than one TV to connect, or more than 50' of coax between the antenna and TV, add an RCA TVPRAMP1R preamplifier. A premium system would be an Antennacraft Y10713, Antennas Direct 91XG and the TVPRAMP1R. Regardless of which option you choose, the antenna(s) need to be outside, clear of obstructions. |
For reception of ,
KPAX VHF high band channel 7 , CBS , CW , MTN. KECI , VHF high band channel 13 , NBC , Me-Tv. K08PR , VHF high band channel 08 , PBS , Spokane. KTMF , UHF channel 23 , ABC , FOX. Aim a Winegard HD7698P antenna at about 314 degree magnetic compass direction. Install a Winegard , LNA-200 'Boost' XT amplifier. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. Use a Old School magnetic compass to aim antenna. _______________________________ And for the reception of . K14IU-D , UHF channel 14 , is a repeater station for KECI. KUFM-DT , VHF high band channel 11 , Montana , PBS. Aim a second Wingard HD7698P antenna at about , 202 degree magnetic compass direction. Install a Winegard , LNA-200 'Boost' XT amplifier. ____________________________ The 2 antenna are connected to a , Remote control A/B antenna switch , http://www.mcmelectronics.com. #32-4425. ____________________________ Each antenna has it's own Winegard LNA-200 'Boost' XT amplifier. So the , power supply , power injector , preamplifier unit , are connected before the A/B antenna switch. |
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If someone wants to experiment with the Stacker, I won't try to stop them. The HD Stacker has it's fans and some others who would rail against it. I've yet to find credible documentation of it's performance, so I'm inclined to recommend options that have published specifications.
I just ordered a TVPRAMP1R from Amazon... less than $25. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13530 I'm not impressed with any of the rotators available... until you step up to commercial / HAM grade products. If the HyGain AR-40 is within your budget, I could suggest it in good conscience. http://www.hy-gain.com/Product.php?productid=AR-40 I'm more inclined to recommend a second antenna and tuner: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2882 This solution avoids any risk of being stuck with a TV that has to be re-scanned every time you switch antennas or re-aim the antenna. |
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Soap Box Alert...
Amplifiers are not a replacement or substitute for the correct antenna, mounted in a location that has adequate signal quality. Signal quality is like water quality... There's a lot of water in the sewage treatment plant, that doesn't mean you would want to drink it. A weak signal free of interference and noise will be easier for a tuner to work with than a bunch of amplified noise and interference with a dab of real signal mixed in.
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You're describing a situation that's quite common. Most TV signal meter functions display a value that's related to the error rate of the received signal. Simply increasing the signal level will not change the error rate if the errors are the result of signal quality at the antenna. A more powerful mix of signal, noise and interference will not be much easier to receive and decode than the weaker version.
If you get no signal through the preamp, you can presume the amplifier is not connected or powered correctly or it has failed internally. That you see signal though it says that it's working. If the total length of coax is 50' or less, and you are only connecting one TV with a good quality tuner, a preamplifier will add little. A 100' section of RG-6 will have less than 6 dB loss at the highest UHF frequency. At VHF frequencies the loss can be less than the amount of noise created inside a good preamp. |
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It sounds like you have a good quality tuner. Not much to be gained adding an amplifier unless you add a splitter and more cable.
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If you plan to be in areas with broadcasts on real channels 2 through 6, the HD1850 would give you just about the best available performance in that frequency range. It's a big antenna, you'd need to think about protecting it when on the road in the camper.
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I think I may have misspoke or your misunderstood me. I was thinking about upgrading to the HD1850 for my home and using my RCA ANT751 on the camper. Correct me if I'm wrong but, I was told I'm in an area where I need a large direction Antenna with a preamp? I received this information from one of my local tv stations, they claim a "deep fringe" antenna will work best. So are they giving me false information on what works best for high VHF? All of my channels in Missoula are VHF except 23.1/23.2 which are ABC/FOX, and I don't really need them since I have them on my SAT. One thing really confusing me is I'm getting KUFM-TV and K14IU-D which are at 202 and 209, When I point my current antenna at 314 give or take a couple degree's in each direction I get nothing even with my antenna being 25 feet in the air. It's so confusing to me, and I'm sorry if all my questions are driving you mad, you've been patient and helpful with my inexperience.
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Ah... I didn't read carefully. Your patience is equally appreciated. The ANT-751 would make a very good camper antenna.
The HD1850 does qualify as a 'deep fringe' antenna, as does the Winegard HD7698P. A significant difference between the two is that the 1850 has intentional support for real channels 2 through 6, the 7698 does not. If you know of credible talk about adding one or more translators in your area, and they are likely to be using channel 2 through 6, the 1850 would be worth the money and extra wind load area. Otherwise, I'll stick with my recommendations in post #2 of this thread. You can click on the call signs of each station on your report to see the path profile. It appears that you are severely shadowed by very tall terrain. You are no doubt needing to tilt the antenna toward the top of the ridge where the signals are diffracting over toward you. I would expect there to be sources of reflected signals also. |
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Just spoke with the fine folks at solid signal and the recommended the Winegard HD 7084P, Attenuator: 1296F, and Amplifier: AP8700.
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Look, you're in a deep, deep valley with granite walls 1000 to 2000' feet tall. The towers are behind the rim of the valley and all you'll ever get are reflections. Pick a very directional high-VF antenna plus a very directional UHG antenna, a rotor, and a decent sensitive preamp and start experimenting. I'd suggest either the single antenna already suggested or the premium system of a 10-element Winegard, a 91XG, a PA18 with UVSJ, and a capable rotor. Mount it all up in the air and give it a whirl. you'll get whatever is available, depending on your level of patience. |
For shot at reliable reception.
My recommendations are still the same. When setting up and testing the system , leave the antenna clamps a little loose , tip the front of the antenna/s up so the antenna is pointed at mountain ridge. When is all adjusted for best reception , then can bend the mast pipe and tighten every thing. Tv antenna rotators Are Not channel surfing friendly , must wait for antenna to rotate , and Will Be Domestic issues about the direction the antenna is aimed. Remote control A/B antenna switching Is Channel Surfing Friendly , press the button on the hand held remote control , change antennas and keep on channel surfing. |
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Ok guy's sorry I took too much faith in the "expert" at solid signal, that's why I posted it here to see if anyone agreed. I'm no expert in Antenna's and I won't claim to be one, which is why I depend on the people of this forum to save me from buying another antenna that will just disappoint me. I've decided to go with the Winegard HD 7698 as suggested. As for using an A/B switch I don't think it will be an issue, I've had my current antenna go funny and the tv had no issue remembering the channels it already had. I'm hoping the same will prove true the OTA tuner for my DishHopper so that I can record, if not I'll have to see if my tv will play nice with an external HD for a PVR setup. Thanks to everyone for the help and advise, I will post my success when the new antenna is up and running. :D
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Interesting development in tv reception.
I wanted to post a new "issue" to see if others have experienced this. I'm still using my RCA-ANT751 and RCA TVPRAMP 1R, and today I relocated my tv to the opposite side of my mobile home without moving the Antenna. Strangely enough my feeds are coming in stronger, not a lot strong but enough that the picture no longer pixilates. I'm still using the same cable and the same connectors, the only difference is the cable line now runs over the roof of my home to the opposite side and through the opposite wall. I'm curious if this is a common phenomenon?
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New Help with Signal in Montana.
Ok so I posted on here before and got some help and advise but I need to update the issue's and current setup. I'm currently using a rca ant751 while I wait on a replacement antenna. I was using the rca tvpramp1r and found it was actually lowering my signals according to the tv's on screen meter, so I removed it at returned it. When I say lowered the signal I actually lost all signal to KPAX-DT and dropped the signal on K14IUD from 75-80 to 60-65. Currently I'm receiving a signal of 52 on KPAXDT and 75 on K14IUD, and an intermittent signal of 15 on KUFMTV. The Antenna is actually pointed at 180 rather then the tv fool recommended 314, because when pointed at 314 I receive nothing at all regardless of height of the antenna. I even tried going 30 feet up as nothing, but when pointed at 180 I get the channels mentioned. I did a radar plot using interactive coverage map and even was able to put the pointer right were the antenna is mounted on the house. So I would like anyone willing to help to look over this and help me with a selection of the best antenna/preamp for my situation. I would "ideally" like to receive KPAX-DT, K14IU-D, and KUFM-TV, I found KTMF-DT to be possible occasionally with a Clearstream 2 pointed at roughly 258 degree's and and "pointed" at a 45 degree angle, this channel isn't mandator but would be "nice". http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae076714107d Not sure if it's possible to link the Interactive TV Coverage Browser but my coordinates are 46.883643,-113.888187, and based on lots of checking found the antenna needs to be lower rather then higher do to the deep valley I'm in. I forgot to add contrary to TV Fool K14IU-D I actually have line of sight, IE I can look out my door and clearly see the tower, you can even pick it up with cheap rabbit ears, though the signal is usually only around 45-50. Also if it makes any difference when it comes to signals I'm in a trailer park.
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That leaves the signals in the range of real CH-7 through 13. The Antennacraft Y10713 is the 'big gun' in that band of frequencies. I suspect the RCA preamp you got may have had a problem, I've head reports of low quality switches that select combiner and trap configuration. Try the Antennas Direct PA-18 and an external UHF/VHF combiner such as the Antennas Direct EU385CF. This two antenna approach let's you aim the two antennas independently, a very helpful 'plus' in your situation. |
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Quad shield is not going to help, the antenna allows desired signal along with whatever interference is in the air into the coax. The extremely small amount of signal or interference that could leak in through the shield of standard coax is already much much less than you need to be concerned with. If the signal meter reading is stable when you wiggle the coax at the connector, it's probably just fine, I've yet to have trouble with any compression style connector. (Crimp connectors are a different story....)
Both the 91XG and PR9032 are designs that covered channels 14 to 69. They both tend to favor the higher channels. If cost is an issue, and you already get K14IU-D with an small indoor antenna, the DB4e would be my choice. It's a newer design, concentrating on real channels 14 to 51, which gives it better performance than older antennas of a similar configuration. The DB4e is also going to have less wind loading. |
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If the signals are stable/reliable, and you have no need to run more cable, why add an amplifier at all? If you plan to add more TVs to your system or change the location of your TV so that more cable is needed, then a preamp may be in order. If you truly need a preamp due to existing or future cable & splitting losses and are going to stick with one antenna, then opt for the PA-18 which is an excellent weak signal amplifier with very good noise specifications. If you plan on building a two antenna system such as the DB4e and Y10713, then use a TVPRAMP1R. Based on the combination of the information in your TV Fool report and your on-site reports, should I move in next door, you'd see my DB4e, Y10713 and TVPRAMP1R hoisted proudly up the mast. |
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Cable should not be acting as an antenna. Cable should only conduct signal from the antenna to the tuner, with no signal leaking in or out along the way. Only the antenna should behave as an antenna.
This continues to make me wonder about the integrity of the connections between the coax and connectors at each end. However, the ANT-751 is a much smaller antenna than I would specify for your situation. You may simply be receiving too weak a signal to insure reliable reception %100 of the time. |
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Today I received and installed my AntennaCraft Y10713 and wanted to post my results. KPAX-DT 65%, KECI-TV 65%, KUFM-TV 40%, all based on my tv's signal meter. Now I was able to get KUFM-TV at 70% is I raised the antenna higher but lost all others in the process. Interestingly enough in order to get all channels I'm pointed at 189 degree's. When pointed at the Azimuth listed on my tvfool report I get nothing, I'm assuming this is due to my 2EDGE signals. My next step which many not happen until spring is to add a UHF antenna in the hopes of getting KTMF-DT, of course by then they should have a new owner who will hopefully correct their signal problems. I know people even in town that can't get signal without a large rooftop Antenna, because they use a directional antenna pointed north and located north of town. So I want to say thanks to those who helped me during this process and I'm glad I took the advise on the AntennaCraft Y10713 it works very well and was very affordable from solid signal.
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Ok not sure anyone is reading this thread anymore, but if anyone is I have a question to ask that someone I'm sure has already asked. So I'm in an area where in order to get a station I want my report say's I need to take "extreme" measures. Now I know that's not totally true since I was able to pick up this channel using the clearstream 2V from Antennas Direct. The station is KTMF-DT which is my local ABC/FOX station. So my idea is trying to stack two Winegard HD-9023 UHF Prostar 1000's. I know GroundurMast recommended the Antenna's Direct 91XG, but doing some research shows the winegard is just as good for channels under 30, and where I live the highest channel is 23. My thinking is if I take two winegards at $30.00 a piece I get a signal increase of at least 3db at a cost of $60.00 total VS $100.00 for the 91XG. Does anyone have any thoughts, or reasons why my thinking is flawed in this situation? Still living this AntennaCraft Y10713, it's so slick and light. I just wish I had never wasted the $60.00 I spend on that RCA ANT751, considering I spend half that on the Y10713 and it out preforms by miles. Oh and if it's needed again here is my tvfool report http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae8383425858
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I'm pretty sure you are referring to the HD-9032. (I transpose s'# too.)
If you're game to try your hand at stacking, it's certainly not a far fetched idea. In practice, don't expect more than 2 dB net gain if you get everything perfect. Before going to all that fuss, I'd try one 9032 just to see if it's fine by itself. ('Keep it simple' if you can.) |
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It turns out the co-channel interference I was worried about with KECI and K14IU-D never turned out to be any issue since K14IU-D is so much stronger. This really is do to I think a mess up by tvfool since I'm getting 100% signal with the UHF Antenna at only 20' above ground. I had to set it up this way since KECI was very weak and DISH recently lost carrier rights with KECI in Missoula. So My next issue is an actual adjacent channel issue that turns out only happens when there is an inversion or extreme cold IE 10 degree's or colder. The channels are KPAX-DT which is on real channel 7 but Virtual Channel 8.1 which in the right conditions is low enough in signal strength that it fights with K32EU which is actually broadcast on 7.1 real channel 8 (tvfool lists the virtual channel as 32.1 which is incorrect). Is there a way to block out K32EU? Or do I need to add a second AntennaCraft y10-7-13? If I need to add this second Antenna would I mount is next to the current or above/below the one I'm already using? One other question in regard to UHF antenna's, I've heard the bay style antenna's work better for 2Edge then Yagi? If this is true can anyone recommend which was to consider/avoid? I was considering the Solid Signal HDB8X or the Channel Master CM4228HD since the DB8 appears to work better for channels over 40 and my highest UHF channel is real channel 23.
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