The results from using a preamp are discouraging.
RCA TVPRAMP1R.

Tried various settings and connections and got -0- stations with any of them.
Here's what I tried:
FM Trap on
UHF separate (Yesterday this was set to combined with the same results)

Tried both UHF separate and the VHF post.
Have the DB8e connected to the power module which is connected to the CM 3414 amp.

Saw a YouTube video where a guy said he used just the outdoor box without power.
Tried that, too.

No results.
Was hoping this would help boost some of my weaker signals.

Is this a defective preamp?

Pretty sure I'm connected properly

Since I'm trying to be greedy, I called Antennas Direct for their suggestions on optimizing my weaker signals.

They sell this preamp

I may try it and order a combiner from them if the one I have coming from Amazon doesn't work

It will only take a few minutes to find out later this afternoon when it gets here

I may have gloated too soon.

I lost some stations completely and others went from normal to weak.
The only thing that changed was weather.
It got cloudier.

And, possibly, I attached the extra cable to two masts to get it up out of the way.

If the preamp killed your reception, then yes, something about it is likely defective.

It is easy to get excited by periods of good reception. Several days of good reception are generally needed to confirm the quality of your installation. Improved reception due to tropospheric ducting last for hours or sometimes days. See http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html for DX forecasts, as well as rear-view looks.

This is not likely to have any ill effects.

Thanks for that input, jrgagne99.

The highs and lows of cutting the cord

My area is black on that map.
It says nil signal.

What does this mean?

The problem with the RCA preamp could be that it is hooked up wrong, or it could be a bad preamp, or both. This is the hookup for the DB8e and the RCA preamp; it should work better than without the preamp.

DB8e > preamp > long coax > grounding block > power inserter > TV

If the signals are too weak for splitting:

DB8e > preamp > long coax > grounding block > power inserter > 3414 > TVs

To combine the CM for VHF only and the DB8e for UHF with no amplification for the CM:

To combine the CM for VHF only and the DB8e for UHF with amplification for the CM and the DB8e, using the RCA preamp as a combiner:

If the combined/separate switch in the RCA preamp goes bad in the separate position, use the UVSJ as a combiner:

It means conditions supposedly were not especially favorable for improved reception due to tropospheric ducting. That being said, as i understand things, weather fluctuations can change reception, outside of tropo ducting effects. In my case, I tend to get stronger signal when it is cloudy/overcast, vs. clear nights when the reception is typically not as strong (though still more than adequate for uninterrupted TV watching).

There are some voltage tests you can make on the RCA preamp:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1512417272

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1512417300

When the preamp is connected, the voltage will drop. It is necessary to use a T-adapter to have access to the center conductor to measure the voltage when the preamp is connected:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1511636090

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...8&d=1511635684

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks for that info, rabbit and jrgagne.

I've never used a grounding block.

Yesterday, I had the DB8e with the combined switch on.
Today, I had it set to separate.
In both cases, it completely killed the signal.

Here's how I tried it.
DB8e---.RCA--->LONG COAX--->POWER--->3414--->TV.

The DB8e is now 40' from the CM

That should have worked if the DB8e was connected to the UHF input of the RCA.

Try it without the 3414.

Time to make some voltage measurements.

I'll be returning the RCA and trying a different one.
That was the only one in my town.

I don't have a lot of choices here.
I have Ace Hardware, Busy Beaver lumber, and Walmart.

Next town, which is a lot bigger and 30 miles away, doesn't have much more.
That includes Lowes, Home Depot, bigger Walmart, Target.
Too bad Radio Shack doesn't exist anymore.
I looked for some kind of electronics store but none around.
There is a Best Buy 45 miles away in another direction.

How could the signal degrade that much in such a short time?
Only 4-5 hours.

I recommend getting one from Walmart or Walmart.com. My recollection is that they were generally of good quality with way fewer issues than the Amazon.com ones. Anecdotally, mine came from Walmart.com and works well.

I'm not at all surprised by this. It is not uncommon to see signal strength change by 5-6 dB (factor of 4) as weather patterns change. Especially for deep fringe situations. As a peronal example, last year on Superbowl Sunday, I was getting the FOX affiliate for 18 hours with 3 dB to spare, leading up to Sunday afternoon. Then at 2pm, signal strength began to decline and by 4pm it was gone completely... Murphy's Law.

I'll check out Walmart.com.
Usually, it takes a long time

I was looking at the PA18 UHF/VHF Antenna Pre-Amplifier Kit from Antennas Direct.
I can get a 10% discount which makes it $2 more than Wally.
WM has a pretty big selection which includes Channel Master and Winegard.

Which do you guys recommend?

Some have a 30 db gain, some 16, some variable.
It doesn't sound like a high gain always gives a better signal

Just got this delivered and hooked up.
Linear 2512 ChannelPlus DC & IR Passing 2-Way Splitter/Combiner
Got 13 channels VHF and 20 UHF.

(I almost always get 13 VHF stations).

It seems to work better than the previous splitter I was using.
Try another preamp and I expect to be as good as I can get.

I may try and raise the antenna a little to see if that helps.

Antennas are like real estate--- the three most important things are Location, Location, and Location. In my experience, moving the antenna around can often result in many dB increase in the SNR, vs. picking the right cable (sometimes even choosing RG-11), using low-loss preamp, (e.g. Kitztech KT-200), and other tricks can only result in a few dB at best.

As an example, I spent well over 40 hours mapping out all of the available rooftop area on my house for reception quality/quantity over a period of about 16 months. I found one particular location and mast height where I was able to get 80% of the channels I wanted, but was still missing one key channel. I was just about ready to call it "good enough" when I was able to borrow a big man-lift and fish around for reception up in some nearby trees using my antennas and a handheld portable TV. I was finally able to find a nice sweet-spot up in a big pine tree, where I get all 6 signals (19 channels) with 100% reliability. I used good-quality infrastructure (pre-amps, cables, etc.) to pipe the signal to my house, but the key to success for me was the location.


A 30 dB probably won't do any better than a 16 dB, unless your downstream losses really are that high. Here is a nice web-based utility to estimate your downstream losses, and by extension, the amount of amplification recommended at the mast. http://otadtv.com/cables/index.html

Remember, if there's no water in the well, a bigger bucket (more amplification) won't help. You need to dig deeper (get a bigger antenna) or dig the well in a different spot (move the antenna). Or something like that.

Good analogies, jrgagne99.
Checking the link.
Is my CM 3414 4 port amplifier considered a splitter?
And a question on connectors.

Do I count as a connector each connection to the antenna and combiner box as well as the connection inside to the splitter/combiner and the connection to the CM amp/splitter.
Or does this mean only if I connect 2 pieces of coax?

Thank you

PS: How do you check signal strength in various locations?

No. In this case, I think its positive gain should be counted to the positive side of your ledger. Rabbit may correct me on this.

In this case, I think "connectors" means barrel connectors that join two pieces of coax.


There are expensive (several hundred dollars) signal meters out there, but the poor-man's method is to use the signal quality indicator on your TV. Some use words like strong, good, and weak, others have numbers, some (like my Sony Bravia) give really useful information like the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR).

An intermediate approach is a little homemade widget using a Winegard camper/RV signal strength meter (Winegard RFL-332 SensarPro Black TV Signal Strength Meter), which requires 12V power (eight AA batteries) and a DC-blocker because it is designed for use with amplified Winegard RV antennas. Read R. Ross's review of the SensarPro on Amazon for instructions on the build. I built one and it works pretty well.

The 3414 is a distribution amplifier. It consists of an amplifier and a splitter in one case.

The amplifier has a gain of 15 dB, but the splitter section has a loss of 7 dB per outlet, so the net gain for each outlet is 8 dB.
https://www.channelmaster.com/Antenn..._p/cm-3414.htm

The answer by jrgagne99 is correct. Use the TV that has the best signal strength meter; all you need is a relative indication.....more is better.

This is from my 19" Samsung TV:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1512499825

I also like the Diagnostics Screen in my Sony TV. It gives relative signal strength and SNR. Screen shots from my Sony KDL22L5000:

Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and uncorrected errors:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...6&d=1438807158

Good Signal

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1438807179

Signal level meters are expensive.

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1440873529

I like to make antenna measurements, so I'm willing to spend the money. I bought the Sadelco 719E meter on the left when I retired from the government in 1988; it was $600. My wife gave me the Sadelco DisplayMax 800 meter on the right as a present; it was $1000.

Since that time, I have bought several meters on eBay, but I don't bid any more than I am willing to lose if a return isn't possible.

This one was $75 including shipping:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...8&d=1512491679

Thanks for that info, Rabbit73.

Always good and I learn.
(Slowly)

Just ordered the PA18 UHF/VHF Antenna Pre-Amplifier Kit from Antennas Direct.
Should get here late Thursday so I'm status quo until then.

Reception is poor today; possibly due to rain.

Reception will always be variable with your weakest signals and with the channels that are off-aim for your antenna.

Your goal should be for reliable reception of your strongest channels in all kinds of weather.

I have 11 VHF channels that fit that criteria but only 1 on UHF.
KDKA is my only 100% reliable UHF

This thread has me so confused. Maybe it's upthread somewhere, but can you restate which stations (call signs) you are shooting for, and maybe rate each one with a "must have", "would be nice", and "stretch goal". Also, is the TVFool report on Post #1 accurate, or has it been superseded somewhere downthread? (if so, in what Post number). Thanks :)

I understand, jrgagne99.
I have several 100+ page threads on a coal furnace forum.

The TV Fool report at the beginning should be accurate, still

2 KDKA Must have ***
4 WTAE Almost a must have
6 WJAC Would be nice
8 WWCP If I don't get WTAE then must have This is VHF
11 WPXI Would be nice but not major
16 ION Doesn't matter to me but wife would watch
19 WPCW Must have ***
22 WPNT Would be nice but a stretch
53 WPGH Must have

*** means I get those almost regardless of what I do.
I get other VHF stations reliably.
My challenge is with UHF stations with the exception of WWCP.

With a couple exceptions, I mostly had that when I started.

My goal is to get the stations I should get.

The DB8e has given me a fleeting glimmer of hope that I may achieve that.
Otherwise I've wasted my time and money.
And your time, too.

In general, as far as reliability, the DB8e hasn't gained me anything yet.
It's not due to anything you all have done.

You have been generous and patient with giving me your help.

I'll see what the preamp does.
The signals seem to be here

I think the DB8e aimed at 225-magnetic is your best chance for good reception of the UHF stations on your list. You may even be able to aim it at 206 magnetic to pull in WTAE on real ch-51, while still getting the 222/226/228 UHF stations. If not, your ABC will need to come from WWCP on VHF at 167-magnetic. Your can use your old CM UHF/VHF combo antenna for this, but I would buy a Stellar Labs 30-2476 for around $30. I think it will have more VHF gain than the old CM. In either case, combine the signals from the VHF antenna and the DB8e with a UVSJ at the mast, then amplify at the mast. I recommend the RCA TVPRAMP1 at the mast which serves as both a UVSJ and an amplifier because it has separate inputs for UHF and VHF. I don't think the Antennas Direct PA18 has separate inputs, so you'll need to use a functioning, good quality UVSJ upstream of it to combine the VHF and UHF signals before feeding into the preamp. Any UHF component being picked up by the old CM antenna should be stripped off by the UVSJ when you input the CM into the VHF side of said UVSJ.

If it is logistically too difficult for you to combine and amplify at the mast, you can do it at ground level, but be sure to minimize the coax length between the antennas and the amp.

You should do all of these things with only one TV in the signal chain and no CM-3414. Only after you have done your best to optimize reception should you worry about distributing signal to multiple TVs.

Thanks for those suggestions.

Right now, the DB8e is @215-218 (best guess because it's hard to be sure)
The CM and DB8e are @ 40' apart now and have separate coax.
I moved it to eliminate the chance that my metal roof was interfering

If I used a common preamp, I'd have to do this inside near where I put them into the CM 3414 splitter/amp.

Except for WWCP, all my VHF are strong on the CM.
I get these strong:
(Virtual)
9 WTOV
13 WQED
19 WPCW

WWCP comes in decently 80% of the time.
That's aimed at 215-220.
Not much else out there.

Although I don't feel a need to amplify the VHF, I just ordered this
Winegard LNA-100 Boost TV Antenna Amplifier, HDTV Signal Booster, HD Digital VHF UHF Amplifier, Indoor HDTV Ultra Low Noise Amp (USB Power Supply) - USA to see if it may help with WWCP.

My main concern is seeing if I can amplify the UHF.
The only consistently strong UHF signal is KDKA.
Probably WPGH is my second best and it's nowhere as consistently strong.
Or WJAC from Johnstown which is, usually, pretty good.
Other than those 3, anything else is by pure chance.

Earlier today I ordered the PA 18 for my UHF.

The RCA that I am returning was the only preamp to be found within 30 miles of me.
Once I get these pieces, I'll try with only 1 TV as you suggest.

Some new preliminary results.
If they hold, it's great.
I'm making this report with cautious optimism.

The first preamp to get here was the Winegard.
The Pa 18 may not arrive until tomorrow..

First, I hooked it to the DB8e and bypassed the CM 3414 and connected to only one TV.
Every station came in as either "Normal" or "Good"

Here's what I got: (Only UHF)
Virtual channel Call Letters
2 KDKA
3 WPSU
4 WTAE
6 WJAC
11 WPXI
22 WPNT
40 WPCB
53 WPGH

Subsequently, I hooked everything back up through the CM 3414 with 4 TVs.
No loss of signals or quality on any of the sets.

Weather was snowy and cloudy.
Next, I plan to hook the VHF only to see if I can get WWCP in addition to my usual reliable VHF stations.

After that, I'll try the preamp between the combiner and the CM 3414 with both VHF and UHF connected.

Wish me luck and I'll report back

So far, all those channels are holding.

I need to tweak my VHF antenna direction.
Night before last, the wind turned it.
I must not have had it clamped firmly enough.

WWCP and WTOV aren't coming in real good.

Other than that, it seems good.
(So far)

Thanks, rabbit73, for all your patience and showing me what a preamp can do.
And jrgagne99 for your instructions, too.

And TV Fool for making this great resource available to me.

I have a second preamp coming.
I was thinking of using it on the DB8e mast for UHF and the second on the VHF line at ground level.

Does that make sense or overkill?

I don't think that's a bad idea. It sounds like you're talking about amplifying the VHF at ground level, upstream of the UVSJ. If you put the wall-wart and power inserter outside, you would probably want to build some weather protection/enclosure for them since they are not designed for outdoors. I guess you could put the wall wart and power inserter inside, but you'd need another hole in the house, or need to make your current hole bigger.

Thanks for your reply.

My thoughts are to keep the Wingeard on the inside for VHF and use the PA 18 outside near the DB8e for UHF.
The PA 18 has weather protection.

I am amazed at how much the preamp has helped.
I consistently get a decent signal from WTAE and WPNT; two stations I couldn't pick up at all before.


Thank you, again, and rabbit73!!!!

The mast-mounted components of each pre-amp should both have weather protection, it is the wallwarts and power-inserter that you'll need to evaluate. Plus, I think only UHF side of your UVSJ passes power, hence the need to insert power for the VHF pre-amp upstream of the UVSJ.


When done properly, a pre-amp makes moot all of the downstream losses, at the expense of a small hit to SNR at the beginning of the signal chain.

The Winegard and it's power are completely inside.

I believe the power component of the PA 18 is inside and the connection and preamp are enclosed.
It just arrived a little bit ago but I haven't opened it yet.

That sounds like your AMP is no longer working how old is the amp
and the tree's I Suggest use a channel master telescoping mast of 40ft
And a channel master 7777AMP,and look at your Lowe's and home depot
and get free shipping too the store,we'll good luck and have a good day.

Thanks, Nascarken.
I replaced the amp around a month ago.
The previous one was about 5 years old.

Until I replaced it I was getting almost no stations.
That brought back all the other stations but not the ones mentioned.

My thought is my Clear Stream is only getting one station.

I can't do any worse by switching

Sounds like !!!

Just realized this is a really old thread