Going OTA in Clinton, SC: questions about antenna, mast, and trees

[Broadus]

First, thanks for a very helpful site.

Having just set up our new Samsung PN51F5300 (also have a small Toshiba LCD in the kitchen), we are planning to drop our Dish TV subscription, put up an outdoor antenna, perhaps 25 feet high, and add Apple TV or Roku.

Our house is one floor, and I anticipate the antenna mast being about 30 feet or so from the Samsung. We live in a small subdivision of moderate-sized houses with little to no obstructions as far as I am aware, other than a few trees in our neighbor's yard. Our greatest hindrance is probably distance from broadcasting towers.

Here are our TV Fool Results (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b9401ee8deb05) for our address. I'm starting from scratch as far as OTA goes, so I appreciate all advice with particular attention to these questions:

1. What antenna do you recommend?

2. What about an outdoor antenna mast? Any thoughts about the Channel Master CM 1830 (http://www.channelmasterstore.com/TV_Antenna_Mast_p/cm-1830.htm)? Something better?

3. Should I be concerned about this clump of trees across the street, probably within 40 yards of the antenna? They appear to be in the direct line of sight to the main broadcast towers according to the compass. If the antenna is pointed true north, the direct line of sight may be just a bit right of them.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mYHNa5Cwc66qXl1_xA0bm3T8AxSzjSeNXKJuQJpA1ec=w540-h404-p-no

Thanks for your help. Any insight is appreciated.

[GroundUrMast]

This time of the year, the trees will be less a factor. As they leaf out in spring, they'll become a greater problem.

The push-up mast is a good option... Though it requires guy wires. Question, If you mount the CM-1830 on your roof peak, would it clear the tree tops? If so, I would consider the combination of the CM-1830 and a tripod. The two together provide a controllable assembly during the raising or lowering process. Most tripods will tilt over when one leg bolt is removed. This leaves you with two bolts to hinge on. If this is the method chosen, I would mount the tripod, add the mast in it's lowered configuration, install the antenna with the mast/tripod assembly tilted over for access, then, without extending the mast sections, tilt the tripod/mast/antenna assembly up and secure the third leg. Once in the upright position, I would raise the mast sections and secure the guy wires.

The bottom line is, antenna location is as or more important in your situation as the antenna choice. The antenna recommendation is going to depend on your response to these thoughts and questions.

[Broadus]

This time of the year, the trees will be less a factor. As they leaf out in spring, they'll become a greater problem.

The push-up mast is a good option... Though it requires guy wires. Question, If you mount the CM-1830 on your roof peak, would it clear the tree tops? If so, I would consider the combination of the CM-1830 and a tripod. The two together provide a controllable assembly during the raising or lowering process. Most tripods will tilt over when one leg bolt is removed. This leaves you with two bolts to hinge on. If this is the method chosen, I would mount the tripod, add the mast in it's lowered configuration, install the antenna with the mast/tripod assembly tilted over for access, then, without extending the mast sections, tilt the tripod/mast/antenna assembly up and secure the third leg. Once in the upright position, I would raise the mast sections and secure the guy wires.

The bottom line is, antenna location is as or more important in your situation as the antenna choice. The antenna recommendation is going to depend on your response to these thoughts and questions.

Thanks for your response. I really appreciate it.

I really had not considered a tripod plus the CM-1830, but I understand your suggestion. And you're right about foliage--that's what I had in mind, though I didn't state it.

I take it that foliage is much more disruptive to digital broadcasting signals than it used to be with analog. If so, it probably discourages a lot of people from going OTA.

I just walked outside and tried to visualize 25' above our roof. I'm not sure that it would clear the trees. If not, does that mean we're stymied and need to forget OTA?

[GroundUrMast]

If you can't clear the trees, don't give up. I'm surrounded by Douglas Fir and Western Red Cedar, many in excess of 100' high. In windy weather I have some trouble, particularly with weaker signals. However, I can still watch TV. I'm using significantly larger antennas than indicated by by signal report.

In your application I'd suggest the Antennacraft HBU-44 pointed at about 325° (compass). If available use a location with less obstruction, but test reception before drilling holes in anything.

[teleview]

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The following information is a response to your statement.

""I take it that foliage is much more disruptive to digital broadcasting signals then it used to be with analog. If so , it probably discourages a lot of people from going OTA.""

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People now days , are not discouraged buy the disruptive effects of trees and tree leaves.

Reason:

90% or more of people now days have no reference to the Analog time of Broadcast Tv.

And at least 90% have Never Received Any Type or Kind Broadcast Tv.

---->And will aim the antenna Directly into Closest Trees.<----

---->And will aim a tv antenna directly into the Thickest part of the Trees.<----

And this is the reason for the constant and repeated and never ending information of , Trees and tree leaves have a Negative Effect on Broadcast Tv Reception.

The Best and Most Reliable Reception happens when avoiding aiming the antenna into trees and tree leaves in the direction of reception.

The greater the distance the trees and other obstructions are from the receiving antenna the better for reception.

Even with the constant and repeated and never ending warnings of avoid aiming the antenna into trees and tree leaves.

People aim the antenna directly into the close trees and directly into the thick of the trees even though another easy to install location on the same roof will mean no trees disrupting reception.

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For your location install a , http://www.antennacraft.com , HBU44 antenna aimed at about 325 degrees magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna.

Install a , http://www.antennacraft.com , 10G201 preamplifier.

Buy the HBU44 antenna and 10G201 preamplifier at , http://www.antennacraft.net , or , http://www.amazon.com.

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As a - Test - of reception I recommend install the HBU44 antenna about 8 to 10 feet or so above the roof.

Here are some above the roof antenna mounts ,

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html.
Use the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/Tripods%200703/3712.html.
Use the , ronard(4712-50-10) , 10 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224) .

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at , http://www.ronard.com , or , http://www.amazon.com.

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Avoid aiming into the closer trees in the direction to the North West.

And try for the thinest concentration of trees at distance in the directions of reception.

Also keep in mind that the stronger signal strength Tv stations of other directions are also receivable with the antenna aimed in one direction.

Directional Tv antennas such as and not limited to the HBU44 antenna receive the best at the front of the antenna , less at front angles to the antenna , less at back angles to the antenna , and less at the back of the antenna.

Directional antennas receive the least amount signal directly on the sides of the antenna.

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For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

Buy the , HFS-2D , HFS-3D , splitters at , http://www.hollandelectronics.com , or , http://www.amazon.com.

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Home Depot and Lowes have , 10 foot , 6 inch lengths , 1 and 3/8 inch diameter , TOP RAIL , chain link fence , PIPE , that makes good antenna mast. The cost is Low Dollars.

[Broadus]

Thanks for the encouragement and suggestion. The Antennacraft HBU-44 costs less than I figured I would have to spend, so that's all the better.

[Broadus]

Looking up the Antennacraft HBU44 on the Antennacraft site indicates that it would need an amplifier: "HBU44 is CEA-rated 'Blue' and 'Violet' for VHF/UHF channels 7-69 when amplified." Do I understand this correctly? According to Antennaweb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org/Stations.aspx?Address=25+Wisteria+Avenue&City=Clinton&State=SC&ZIP=29325&Housing=M&Accuracy=8&Height=9&Obstructed=False&StationList=&Lat=34.4552229&Lon=-81.858376), some stations are blue and violet.

[GroundUrMast]

I'd not be in a great rush to add an amplifier... Though one may be needed, I'd prove it first: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13646 If the need is established, the 10G201 suggested by teleview is a good option. The RCA TVPRAMP1R is another.

Also, agreeing with teleview, if the trees can't be cleared, I'd suggest using a single 10' mast section rather than the CM-1830. I think there would be little point in the added complexity of a guyed mast if it didn't clear the foliage obstruction.

[Broadus]

Thanks for the thread link. I'll check that out. One thing I've discovered is that old regular antennas around here seem to do a good job picking up the towers above Greenville and Spartanburg listed in my TV Fool results. I think my biggest concern is the foliage of the clump of trees across the street.

[GroundUrMast]

A common misconception has been that a 'digital' or 'HD' antenna is needed. However the old 'regular' antennas operate in the same way, the same frequency spectrum (L-VHF, H-VHF & UHF) and like the new antennas, have no awareness of whether the signal is analog or digital.

Perhaps the shift to the UHF end of the TV broadcast spectrum has fueled much of the confusion. In many markets, little if any broadcasting was being done in the UHF band prior to the transition from analog. Because many broadcasters wanted to maintain their analog system as long as possible, they built a completely new digital system and operated both simultaneously. The new digital systems had to use the UHF band, largely because much, if not all the available VHF spectrum was already in use at that time. Also, the digital standard, ATSC/8VBSB is negatively affected by impulse noise and similar types of interference (which is less prevalent in the UHF band).

[teleview]

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A comparsion of Analog pictures and Digital pictures.

With less then ideal reception , such as trees and other obstructions , the Analog picture has increasing amount of , multi-path = Ghosts in the analog Tv picture , the Ghosts would get so bad that the picture would be unwatchable.


With Digital reception the Digital Tuner Computer will Correct the multi-path up to about the same point as a analog picture would be unwatchable , and then the multi-path is to much for the digital tuners computer to correct and the picture goes blank no picture.

So the analog picture becomes unwatchable because of ghosts.

And the digital picture goes blank.

Either way the picture can become unwatchable.

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Also as a comparison , the analog picture was never clear of different types and kinds of interference.

The digital picture is Always Crystal Clear.

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With Analog , one is always Trying To Get the Clearest Picture.

And with Digital the the Picture is Always Clear.

[Broadus]

Thanks, teleview. So are you saying that digital signals are no less strong or whatever than are analog signals, it's just that with digital you either get a picture or you don't and with analog you get a good picture or a poor or unwatchable picture that may as well be no picture at all?

In other words, the coming spring foliage in the clump of trees will have no more ultimate effect upon digital signals than they would have upon analog. Is that correct?

[ADTech]

In other words, the coming spring foliage in the clump of trees will have no more ultimate effect upon digital signals than they would have upon analog. Is that correct?

No. On analog, the trees would cause either ghosting or snow. Usually annoying, but you could usually watch through it.

On digital, you'll get one of the following:
1) Perfect reception some, most, or all of the time,
2) Loss of signal lock , especially when the wind blows or the trees are wet,
or
3) No reliable reception at all on one or more channels.

UHF will usually be affected well before VHF.

[Broadus]

No. On analog, the trees would cause either ghosting or snow. Usually annoying, but you could usually watch through it.

On digital, you'll get one of the following:
1) Perfect reception some, most, or all of the time,
2) Loss of signal lock , especially when the wind blows or the trees are wet,
or
3) No reliable reception at all on one or more channels.

UHF will usually be affected well before VHF.

Thanks for the clarification. Would you recommend waiting till the leaves come out before I give this a try?

[teleview]

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As with most people you are missing the point.

The point is , avoid and limit obstructions in the directions of reception.

No I do not recommend wait until the leaves come out.

I am not saying their will be little or no reception.

I recommend install the antenna now.

And then if you will , keep returning to Tvfool and read what the question askers are saying and doing concerening aiming a antenna in to trees and other obstructions.

And perhaps you can find the wording that will get the point across.

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As to , Antennaweb , the program that predicts what Tv stations will be received is a Very Conservative Evaluation/Prediction Program , to point of being Defective Predictions of what will and what will not be received.

The owner of the web site knows the web site reception predictions are defective and does nothing to fix it.

Do not try and line up the information of antenna web and Tvfool.

Tvfool is the only web site that provides best information of what can be received.

[teleview]

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--->Install the Tv antenna now.<---

The information I am providing is for the purpose of being Good to Know Practicel and Useful information.

Information for reliable reception.

I am not in any way shape or form saying or implying install the antenna after the leaves are out.

[GroundUrMast]

The HBU-44 recommendation takes into account an estimate of the foliage impairment. If there was no vegetation to contend with, a significantly smaller antenna is indicated by your signal report.

While I can't offer a 100% guaranty of perfect reception, I think you'll do well, despite the trees. If I was in the same situation, I'd go for it.

[Broadus]

Thanks, teleview and GroundUrMast for the extra clarification and edited posts, especially the detailed info. Lots of specific and helpful information. For the record, I've used an outdoor antenna longer than I've used cable or satellite, but it was all pre-digital. I don't recall ever having to deal with a clump of trees so close that it's impossible to get around. However, they may not be so deep that a bit of a hole may be found, or at least a path of less foliage.

[Broadus]

The HBU-44 recommendation takes into account an estimate of the foliage impairment. If there was no vegetation to contend with, a significantly smaller antenna is indicated by your signal report.

While I can't offer a 100% guaranty of perfect reception, I think you'll do well, despite the trees. If I was in the same situation, I'd go for it.

Funny that you say that about the HBU44. Were it not for your recommendation, I would have gone with the HBU55, which is even larger than the 44. :)

We're going to go for it, so you guys will probably get more questions.

[GroundUrMast]

While I would like the added gain of the HBU-55, the beam-width of the HBU-44 is wider, something that will be useful in your situation.

[Broadus]

While I would like the added gain of the HBU-55, the beam-width of the HBU-44 is wider, something that will be useful in your situation.

That's good to know. Thanks. I figured you had a good reason.

[Broadus]

A little update: after months of thinking about canceling our DishTV subscription, I finally ordered the Antennacraft HBU44 from Solid Signal via Amazon. About everything I've read confirms this suggestion. I really appreciate the help here.

Now I need to review Teleview's list of accessories. I need to look into the 10 foot lengths of top rail chain link fence pipe. I would like to interconnect the lengths so that the mast rests on the concrete at the back of the house and attach it to the point of the gable, which would be perhaps 18 feet. I would prefer not to mount the antenna on the roof itself. I want the mast to be strong enough to endure stiff winds and would love not to have to use guys wires if at all possible. That may require a real heavy-gauge pipe, I guess.

As always, I appreciate suggestions concerning any of this. While I want to save money, I don't mind spending what is necessary.

[GroundUrMast]

You have several options. The chain-link top rail is swedged so that sections can be stacked end to end. That will require the use of guy-wires or wall brackets.

http://www.3starinc.com/adjustable_3-way_down_guy_ring_for_1-14_inch_antenna_mast.html
http://www.3starinc.com/wall_mounts.html

You can also consider using metal electrical conduit, rigid or IMC which will be threaded on both ends. It too would need to be supported similar to the top rail product.

[teleview]

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A wall mount bracket can be install on the eave at the peak of the roof , the sections of TOP RAIL PIPE are put together end to end and put up from the ground up and connected to the bracket at the peak of the roof.

The TOP RAIL PIPE can extend up to 10 feet above the peak of the roof with no guy wires.

I recommend about 5 or so above the peak of the roof with no guy wires.

The reason for 5 feet or so above the roof is , 5 feet or so is easier to reach then 10 feet above the roof.

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http://www.3starinc.com , has all manner of mounting brackets.

[GroundUrMast]

I've been comfortable with a single section of top rail held by a pair of wall brackets. I was able to reinforce the wall behind the siding with 2x4 bracing between studs, and bolt through the bracket, siding and bracing. about 3' of mast was below the peak of the roof which left the antenna at roof peak plus 7'.

The location was here in the NW, which gets a few storms that hit 100 MPH winds in any 20 year period. The antenna and mast went through a couple 60 MPH events before selling that property.

[Broadus]

Thanks, teleview and GroundUrMast. Something on that order is what I had in mind. Hopefully, I'll get it all done within a couple of weeks.

[Broadus]

A friend helped me erect the new antenna and connect it to our two TVs on Friday, though I had to deal reception problems with a couple of stations. Looking it over a hour or so ago, I realized that the antenna may be pointed directly at a limb which had a couple of leafy branches. I lowered the antenna about three feet (it's now maybe three feet above the point of the roof) and the problem was solved. We're getting good reception from all our "local" stations from the Greenville, Spartanburg, and Asheville area.

I also bought a Roku 3, so with Amazon Prime, we're pretty set.

I appreciate the help you guys offered.

[teleview]

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I am curious , what are the 2 Tv stations that had the reception problems??

Did you install the HBU44 antenna??

Is a preamplifier connected now??

[Broadus]

The two problem stations were 16 and 21, with 21 being the worse. That didn't make sense to me, as strong as the signal of 21 is, according to the TVFool report.

Yes, I installed the HBU44 but no preamp.