Want to Cut Cable- Antenna confusion

[Paul_Aris]

Ok, I want to cut the cable and use a combination of antenna for local channels and Hulu or netflix for online content with my smart tv. My confusion is around directional or non directional antennas. So looks like most of my channels are coming from 2 different directions. NE or SE. Can a directional be aimed in between (east and pull from both north and south east)? Would I need a rotor. Or are the majority of the good channels close enough that I could pull them in clear with a omni directional antenna. I know I need an antenna that will get low bands and the higher bands. Which antenna would work well for this area?

By the way I plan to install on a mast above my roof.

Here is my area in the 49456 area coe.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c691b827b494

[GroundUrMast]

I'd avoid an omnidirectional design. They generally offer poor performance when multipath conditions are present. If you are in an urban or developed suburban area, multipath can be a significant problem.

I'd go after the mix of strong, medium and weak signals that lie generally in the direction of 130°. An Antennacraft HBU-44 or HBU-55, or the Winegard HD7698P would be my suggestion.

If you have more than one TV to connect, a rotator can be a source of frustration for the viewers who at at the mercy of the person with the rotator control.

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A Simple Reception Situation.

The Current Plus Pending Applications Included Digital Tv Station Radar Plot and Channels List Tv Stations to the , South East and North East.

The main group of Tv stations is to the South East , some other Tv stations are to the North East.

Above the Peak of the Roof in such a manner that reception is not , obstructed , impeded , blocked , by the roof and building in the directions of , South East and North East.

Aim a , www.antennacraft.net , HBU44 antenna at about 128 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna , do not trust a cell phone compass.

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Antenna system amplifier will most likely not be required for 1 or 2 Tv's connected.

For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

Buy the HFS-2D splitter at , www.hollandelectronics.com , or , www.amazon.com

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How many Tv's will be connected??

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Here are some above the roof antenna mounts.

www.ronard.com/909911.html
Use the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

www.ronard.com/34424560.html
Use the , ronard(4560) , eave antenna mount.

www.ronard.com,ychim.html
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224) .

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at , www.ronard.com

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With the HBU44 antenna aimed to the , South East receiving the South East Group of Tv stations.

The Strong Signal Strength Tv Statins to the , North East.

Will Yes also be receive with No Antenna Rotation.

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Antenna rotators Are Not channel surfing friendly , must wait for antenna to rotate.

Antenna rotation is not recording friendly.

And their -Will Be Domestic Situations- about the direction the antenna is aimed.

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As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , have a Negative Effect on Broadcast Tv Reception and so do buildings and other obstructions in the directions of reception including your own roof and building.

Some and not all Negative Effects are.

Absorbing and Blocking Reception.

Multi-Path Reflecting Tv Signals Bouncing All Around.

The Best Practice for Reliable Reception is to install the antenna at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the directions of reception including your own roof and building.

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The Tv/s Must Channel Scan for the , ATSC-Digital Broadcast Tv Ststions/Channels , often named the ~ Antenna Channels ~ ATSC Channels ~ DTV Channels ~ Air Channels ~ in the Tv Setup Menu because the Tv transmissions travel through Air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna.

Some digital tv 's will Automatic channel scan for cable tv channels.

DO NOT channel scan for cable tv channels.

Go into the Tv Setup Menu and select and channel scan for ATSC-Digital Broadcast Tv Channels.

[Paul_Aris]

Do you think because of the close proximity I will be able to pick up WZZM 13 with they antenna's you suggested pointed around 130? If not should a smaller sub antenna be installed on the mast to point the direction of 13?

Also how much signal loss is there with longer cables. I would need to run down the side of the house to the basement. to a splitter. Then run across the basement to my cable splitter and then part way back across and up to the living room tv. The family room tv is close to the first splitter.

[ADTech]

Please go back and do an exact address plot. A zip-code level analysis is usually too prone to variations for it to be reliable.

RG6 and RG6QS coaxial cable typically exhibits 5.5-6 dB insertion loss at 700 MHZ which is the worst case for antenna signals. I usually use a factor of 1 dB per 17 feet and it's plenty close enough. You can pick 15 or 20 feet/db for off-the-cuff estimates and it will usually be close enough. Keep in mind that VHF attenuates much less per unit of cable length so, in the case of very long cable runs, the tilt of the signals (insertion loss of low frequencies vs insertion loss of high frequencies) can become skewed and might require some equalization.

Once more a more accurate analysis is available, estimate the length of your individual cable runs, identify the splitters (2 port, 4 port, etc), and then you can estimate whether any amplification will be required to improve noise margin and to overcome downstream distribution losses.

[GroundUrMast]

I agree with ADTech, that you'll be doing yourself a favor if you verify that the signal conditions at your actual location.

If the conditions don't change significantly, then I'd try just one antenna. If it turns out that the WZZM signal can't be received reliably after fine tuning the aim point, and WOTV is not an acceptable alternative for an ABC affiliate, then yes, a second antenna can be added. Let's not be too worried about that yet.

[Paul_Aris]

Originally Posted by ADTech

Please go back and do an exact address plot. A zip-code level analysis is usually too prone to variations for it to be reliable.

RG6 and RG6QS coaxial cable typically exhibits 5.5-6 dB insertion loss at 700 MHZ which is the worst case for antenna signals. I usually use a factor of 1 dB per 17 feet and it's plenty close enough. You can pick 15 or 20 feet/db for off-the-cuff estimates and it will usually be close enough. Keep in mind that VHF attenuates much less per unit of cable length so, in the case of very long cable runs, the tilt of the signals (insertion loss of low frequencies vs insertion loss of high frequencies) can become skewed and might require some equalization.

Once more a more accurate analysis is available, estimate the length of your individual cable runs, identify the splitters (2 port, 4 port, etc), and then you can estimate whether any amplification will be required to improve noise margin and to overcome downstream distribution losses.

I thought I did that. It must have only taken my zip. New plot but very similar.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c6c7be9d62b6

[GroundUrMast]

I'd try the single antenna solution, it's less expensive and likely to produce good results. We can deal with an alternate two antenna solution if the need is proven.

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Cable delivered services such as and not limited to , cable Tv service , cable Internet service , cable phone service , Can Not Be Connected to any coaxes that are used for the antenna and antenna system.

YES coax that was used for the cable delivered service can be used for the antenna system.

However any cable delivered service Must Be on a Separate Coax that is not connected to the antenna and antenna system coaxes.

[Paul_Aris]

Originally Posted by teleview

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Cable delivered services such as and not limited to , cable Tv service , cable Internet service , cable phone service , Can Not Be Connected to any coaxes that are used for the antenna and antenna system.

YES coax that was used for the cable delivered service can be used for the antenna system.

However any cable delivered service Must Be on a Separate Coax that is not connected to the antenna and antenna system coaxes.

Yes, I would still have cable internet so I would want to split where it comes into the house and to each tv. Is a screw in splice ok to add on to cable length? Another thing I noticed the antennas suggested don't pick up channels below 7. I see CBS is broacasted on 3 in my area. Is this a problem?

[tomfoolery]

Originally Posted by Paul_Aris

Another thing I noticed the antennas suggested don't pick up channels below 7. I see CBS is broacasted on 3 in my area. Is this a problem?

WWMT CBS is broadcast on real channel 8, which is high-band VHF. It will show on the screen as virtual channel 3.1 with CW network on 3.2. Since the digital switchover, many if not most stations use UHF or high-VHF broadcast frequencies while retaining the 'virtual' channel number that corresponded to the actual broadcast channel from the analog days, presumably so nobody got confused. And so they didn't have to change station letterhead.

Use the 'Real' column in the TVFool report for channel requirements for antenna selection.

[GroundUrMast]

If you need to add some length to an existing cable, the F-81 'barrel' connector can be used to join the new section of cable to the existing.

Example: http://www.cableandwireshop.com/holl...connector.html

As I scan down the list of real channels on your TV Fool report, WGVK (real CH-5) is the fist Low-VHF signal that I come to. It's quite weak, but if you want to try to receive it you could go attempt to with a Winegard HD7084P or Antennacraft HD1850.

I would caution against high expectations, there is more noise/interference present in the low band.

>=+

The columns in the channel list show the show the

Real Channel that is Transmitted and Received.

And shows the (virt) virtual number.

The radar plot shows the Real channel that is transmitted and received.

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When changing from Analog to Digital transmission.

Many Tv stations have changed to a New channel that is transmitted and received but have kept and display the old channel number.

That old number is now a (virt) virtual number.

And the old number is a (virt) virtual number even if the Tv station stayed on the same channel when changing from Analog to Digital.

The (virt) virtual number is not a Real Channel evenif the virtual number is the same as the Real Channel that is transmitted and received.

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WHVK-DT , Real VHF low band channel 5 , virtual number (52.1) , PBS .

WGUV-Tv , Real VHF high band channel 11 , virtual number (35.1) , PBS .

Are the Same PBS.

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGVU-TV

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The Real Channels are what a Tv antenna receives.


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The Current Tv Channels that are being transmitted and received in the , USA , Canada , Mexico , are.

VHF low band channels 2 thru 6.

VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

UHF band channels 14 thru 51.

[Tower Guy]

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

I'd try the single antenna solution, it's less expensive and likely to produce good results. We can deal with an alternate two antenna solution if the need is proven.

That's good advice.

Yet to add WZZM is pretty easy. Get this channel 13 Jointenna for $3.99 before they run out. http://www.channelmasterstore.com/JO..._p/cm-0583.htm
Then aim a Y5-7-13 at WZZM and couple it to the 7-51 antenna.

WZZM and the other strong signal strength Tv stations that are to the North East will be received by the antenna that is aimed to the South East.

[Tower Guy]

I believe that mis-aimed antennas are not as predictable as a properly aimed antenna. The additional cost of the Jointenna and the Y5-7-13 is not great. Note that Michigan has a great antenna supplier; Solid Signal. Summit Source is not far away in Indiana.

[Paul_Aris]

Good advice. I think I would start out with single HBU-44 pointed south east. Not worried about the low channel. The only one I was concerned about was CBS and now I know that is really on 8. Also I know to keep internet off the splitters and cables. I probalby wouldn't have mixed those anyway. Cable/internet comes in the opposite end of the house.

I would use a gable mount such as the CM9030 Adjustable Eave Mount on a 10-15' mast. I already had one of these in this location years ago but because of cable I removed it and brought it to my cabin and installed. It was a two VHF set-up older style. Works good at the cabin but I don't get one channel NBC that I should because it does not have the UHF set-up. But hey it was free and I can switch out to a different antenna later if it bothers me enough.

Now I just need to weigh my options. My cable and internet promos are over and just jumped to $130 or higher a month. So I am thinking of switching back to Charter to get the high speed 30 MBPS internet. This is important for me because we have an at home online business. However it is $40 per month. Still a lot cheaper than the $130 or more I pay now to have both TV and internet. I can add Charter select TV which is 125 channels with a lot of those in HD. It would bring the total to $104 per month with the hd box for both tv's.

Or I could buy the antenna mount and needed supplies for around $150 and then add netflix, hulu or amazon prime for around $8 per month. My monthly expenditures would be around $48 per month for internet, local channels and internet tv service. So really only $52 month cost difference to not have the antenna and stick with cable but there would be a $30 installation charge every year when i would have to switch because my rates go up. What to do?

[GroundUrMast]

$52 X 12 = $624

Or,

$52 per month invested in a balanced growth fund averaging 8% per year will grow to over $18,000 in 15 years.

I think most of us here tend toward telling the cable company to take a hike.

[Paul_Aris]

Well I ended up ordering the antenna and the mount. Once I get everything connected and I am cutting the cord and changing internet providers back to high speed charter 30MBPS. I figure I can always go back to cable some day if I need to but most of the content that is on really ins't that important or good. Entertaining? maybe, but gets old quick. I would rather go out for dinner and or drinks one more time a month than pay for cable. I feel I can get decent enough content with the antenna and netflix.

I will let you know how your suggestions work out.

[Paul_Aris]

Weird. I installed the hbu44 on a 10 foot mast above my roof and pointed it magnetic 128 and tried 138 degrees. I get wzzm 13 strong but no nbc or cbs. I get pbs 35 1-4 and 54 1-3. What went wrong? Oh and I don't get fox 17 either. By the way the RG6 comes straight down the mast and almost straight down the house to a ground connector and then into the house. Goes in about a foot and then I have a splitter. From there about 4-6 feet to my cable wall plate. From there another cable runs it to the tv. All total maybe 50 feet of RG6 from antenna to TV 1. Just for kicks I ran all the way to the other TV which is a longer route than I need but I used existing cable that was hung from where the cable splitter is. I didn't really see any worse signal on that TV.

After removing the one splitter and inserting a barrel connector I know get 3 programmed but its in and out and never clear. 8 is still nothing and 17 slightly worse than 3. I am wondering if I need a antenna amplifier or if I should have purchased the HBU 55. Bummer.