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Old 11-Nov-2019, 1:31 AM   #1
ohazco
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 11
Deep Fringe - Setup no longer working, at a loss

Hello All! Sorry for the novel, but its a 7 year story.

With great advise from this forum 7 years ago I installed an 91XG and AntennaCraft 10G202 on a chimney mount, about 20' from ground to antenna, pointed at 338. At that time I had RG59 cables with crimp ends running to the old directTV coax to the TV. I received all the red channels at 338 degrees (Denver) 95% of the time, and the yellow and green eastern channels (Kansas) 100% of the time, including the VHF channel 10. This setup worked great for about 3 years when I realized it was breaking my chimney apart. I moved it to a tower 15' north, 30' from ground to antenna, pointed at 338, with all new RG6quad with compression ends (and rebuilt my chimney). This reduced my reception of Denver channels to about 90%, which I assumed was due to the horizontal shift. Still good. Since then I have progressively lost signal more and more. I started losing the Kansas channels when pointed north, so I installed a rotor to be able to point to the east when necessary. I have burned through 5 pre-amps: the 10G202, 3 RCA TVpramp1's, and 1 new version CM7777 all of which stopped working at some point. Antenna Direct sent me a new balum. I have rewired from the antenna to the ground 3 times, and now test with a tv at the base rather than in the house. It just kept getting worse. I have not received Denver channels reliably (>20% of the time) for about the last year and have just had it pointed east. Channel 10 has started to get choppy. This weekend I decided to try a new 91XG and a Winegard Boost XT preamp (instead of the RCA) and completely rewired, to try to get my Denver channel back. I think it got worse. In the house and base of the tower I get some of the Denver channels very choppy, and no Kansas channels pointed north. I get vhf10 very choppy only when pointed northeast, and get 17 and 19 only when pointed due east with occasional choppiness. I just can't figure out what gives and am at a loss. Any thoughts on what could be going on, or anything else to try? Anything I could be testing for? I am considering an HDB8X to try... but am very hesitant to keep throwing money at this.. I just wasted $100+ on a new 91XG, and also concerned about its wind load, not sure my tower could take it.

Before all of this, I used to get Kansas with an RV antenna, so thinking giving up on Denver, ditching the tower and its lightning risk, and just putting a mid-range vhf/uhf combo down low to at least get Kansas. But pointed east on my tower my 91XG is choppy on them sometimes now, so maybe that won't even work?!? I wired up the elderly neighbor next door with his 30 year old UHF antenna and no preamp and he gets Kansas most the time.
?@%@X!

Here are my reports:
Note I do have a full power FM station about 1/2 mi south.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90388d28ae2280

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=26776

Hope someone has some thoughts... thanks!!!

Last edited by ohazco; 11-Nov-2019 at 1:35 AM.
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Old 11-Nov-2019, 1:32 PM   #2
JoeAZ
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 380
No easy solutions and lots of work involved....
For starters:
I would run a PROVEN "jumper cable" from each of
the antennas to a tv at the base of your tower. How
do each of the antennas perform compared to what
you are now typically receiving??? If better, then
you know the wiring/amplification is suspect further
down. I'd also try the above with/without amplification
as that FM station may be causing you some interference.

Last edited by JoeAZ; 11-Nov-2019 at 1:35 PM.
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Old 12-Nov-2019, 2:02 AM   #3
rabbit73
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,550
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohazco View Post
Hello All!
Hello, ohazco. Thank you for the reports.

It sounds like the new tower location isn't quite as good as the chimney location was for reception.
Quote:
I have not received Denver channels reliably (>20% of the time) for about the last year and have just had it pointed east.
You are not receiving channels from Denver, you are receiving channels from low power translators in Idalia that carry Denver channels.







Denver channels would never make it to your location except during unusual atmospheric conditions.



Quote:
I have not received Denver channels reliably (>20% of the time) for about the last year and have just had it pointed east
Something might be in the signal path from Idalia that wasn't there before, like trees.
Quote:
Channel 10 has started to get choppy.
Channel 10 is a VHF channel; the 91XG isn't designed to receive VHF channels and its balun doesn't pass VHF channels.
Quote:
This weekend I decided to try a new 91XG and a Winegard Boost XT preamp (instead of the RCA) and completely rewired, to try to get my Denver channel back. I think it got worse.
You are on the extreme fringe outside the area of coverage for Idalia channels. The red marker is your location.



K24EZ is a low power translator only running 0.192 kW ERP, that's 192 Watts. The actual transmitter output is only 20 Watts with an antenna gain of 8.06 dB.
0.03 kW TPO + 8.06 dB gain = 0.192 kW ERP
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...ms&facid=55618

Quote:
I get vhf10 very choppy only when pointed northeast, and get 17 and 19 only when pointed due east with occasional choppiness. I just can't figure out what gives and am at a loss.
The 91XG receives VHF channels off-axis.
Quote:
I am considering an HDB8X to try... but am very hesitant to keep throwing money at this.. I just wasted $100+ on a new 91XG, and also concerned about its wind load, not sure my tower could take it.
The 91XG is a better choice for your UHF channels.
Quote:
I wired up the elderly neighbor next door with his 30 year old UHF antenna and no preamp and he gets Kansas most the time.
?@%@X!
Small changes in location can make a big difference in reception.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ohazcoTVF2map.JPG (53.9 KB, 212 views)
File Type: jpg ohazcoTVF2map2.JPG (61.7 KB, 208 views)
File Type: jpg ohazcoTVF2map3.JPG (113.2 KB, 210 views)
File Type: jpg ohazcoTVF2covK24EZ.JPG (135.0 KB, 204 views)
File Type: jpg ohazcoTVFreportRE.jpg (199.0 KB, 207 views)
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 12-Nov-2019 at 3:22 AM.
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Old 12-Nov-2019, 4:30 AM   #4
ohazco
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 11
Thanks guys!

Rabbit, attached is my FM fool report.

I knew they were from Idalia repeaters, just meant the channels were Denver channels. My county is the only county in eastern CO that turned their repeaters off in 2007. .

I forgot about the terrain model/map... In 2012 I was definately in a more solid band of the Idalia transmitter.. I wonder if they lowered the power or something. I theorized tree growth as well... but just found it too coincidental that I also progressively lost Kansas channels.

Whats a way to test a cable to know its "proven" as mentioned by JoeAZ? Test resistance?

Other than that... sounds like I just need to give up on the Idalia/Denver channels.

Thanks!
Attached Images
File Type: png Radar-FM.png (88.2 KB, 26 views)
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Old 13-Nov-2019, 1:44 PM   #5
JoeAZ
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 380
Sorry for the delay in responding to you.
I spent a lot of time reviewing your situation.
Realistically, you should have no problems with
the Kansas stations. KWKS runs 464kw with an
antenna height of 373m agl. KLBY runs 625kw
but the antenna is 219m agl. The issue with KBSL
pixelating is probably related to the 91XG antenna,
that is not designed to receive VHF. The other
two stations should not be causing you any concern.
This leads me to believe you do have some issue
with your system. How close/tall are the closest trees
and in what direction are they???
My favorite way of testing cable is to run a Rf signal
from a "source" such as a converter box with on screen
graphics to the television. I manipulate the cable, one
small section at a time and look at the television for
any changes in video or audio. There are other ways
of testing cable as well.
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Old 13-Nov-2019, 11:35 PM   #6
rabbit73
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,550
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohazco View Post
Rabbit, attached is my FM fool report.
Thank you for the FM report. I see one strong FM transmitter KNAB coming from the south with a signal power of -15.1 dBm. If your antenna is aimed north or east, that will reduce the possibility of FM interference. If you do have FM interference it is most likely to be on VHF channels and a filter would help.
Quote:
My county is the only county in eastern CO that turned their repeaters off in 2007. .
How unfortunate; I was wondering why you didn't have stronger signals.

Quote:
Other than that... sounds like I just need to give up on the Idalia/Denver channels.
All is not lost. With a few modifications you can still have some reasonable reception.
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html
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