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Old 23-Sep-2015, 3:40 AM   #1
ngs428
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Antenna Options for My Location

hello,
My TV Fool TV signal analysis can be found at the link below,
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03129473c235

I have a single story house which is 2.9 to 13.65 miles from the CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX and PBS towers as you can see from the report linked above. I would like to run OTA to 2 TVs on the main floor and one in the basement.

I have a RCA ANT1650F in one of my first floor rooms. After repositioning quite a bit I am able to get all channels in green on my report. NBC (W27AU-D) is the most difficult to get in. The reception is hit and miss in my basement with the Zenith ZHDTV1 antenna I have.

I would like to get all channels in green on my report. I am willing to install an outdoor or attic antenna if that will help my situation. I am in WI, so how much will snow impact a roof installed antenna? I do not have a direct line of sight to the close towers, there are some tall trees in my back yard.

What are good install location options and antenna recommendations for my situation? Thanks for your help.

Last edited by ngs428; 23-Sep-2015 at 3:48 AM.
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Old 23-Sep-2015, 7:41 PM   #2
rabbit73
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Are you using the 1650 with or without the amplifier?

http://www.rcaantennas.net/docs/comm...NT1650F_OM.pdf

You have some very strong TV and FM signals that might cause overload to a preamp or tuner. Of course, the signals are weaker inside, so some experiments are needed. See attachment. An FM filter might be needed.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-FM-88-/33-341

I suggest you try a temporary setup of an RCA ANT751 or Antennas Direct C2V in the attic aimed at 169 degrees magnetic to see how it does. Don't drill any holes yet.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...-Complete.html
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/antennas...=1218809260470

The VHF "V" dipole of the C2V should be aimed broadside (perpendicular) to 197 for 7 and 9.

I do see a lot of trees in your area, so you need to try different locations, maybe the SE corner first.

If the attic doesn't work, go outside.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ngs428TVF FM est.JPG (101.2 KB, 214 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Sep-2015 at 2:39 AM.
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Old 24-Sep-2015, 12:21 AM   #3
ngs428
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Thanks for the reply @rabbit73.

I am using my 1650 without the amplifier. I used it initially, but removed it, tested and did not see that it improved anything. I am getting the following signal strengths with my 1650 per my Panasonic TV: Channel 7 - 85%, Channel 9 - 100%, Channel 20 - 100%, Channel 27 - 50%, Channel 55.1 - 25%.

As reported WFXS-DT 55.1 is not correct on the report. It was reported to be changed at http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15656. It is now broadcasting at low power 15kW which is why my signal is so weak.

3 questions:

1) Is there any downside to using the FM filter? I can certainly try it.

2) Could you comment on performance of an antenna in an attic where there will be snow on the roof (a foot or more) vs the roof mounted antenna where snow may get on it during heavy snowfalls. I am not sure what the better situation is for reception.

3) One other consideration is cable length. I would have about a 65, 35 and 100 foot run from an outside antenna to the 3 tvs. Concerns with signal loss on those runs?

I think I am going to try the Antennas Direct C2V based on your recommendation. Thanks!

Last edited by ngs428; 24-Sep-2015 at 4:51 PM.
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Old 25-Sep-2015, 11:53 PM   #4
rabbit73
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Quote:
1) Is there any downside to using the FM filter? I can certainly try it.
There is a small loss of about 1 dB, but you really need it because your strongest FM signals are about 6 dB stronger than your strongest TV signals, and about 40 dB stronger than W27AU.
Quote:
2) Could you comment on performance of an antenna in an attic where there will be snow on the roof (a foot or more) vs the roof mounted antenna where snow may get on it during heavy snowfalls. I am not sure what the better situation is for reception.
I have no idea what the signal loss will be in the attic, with or without snow. You will just have to try it.
Quote:
3) One other consideration is cable length. I would have about a 65, 35 and 100 foot run from an outside antenna to the 3 tvs. Concerns with signal loss on those runs?
The signal loss for RG6 coax is about 6 dB per 100 feet at UHF. Try it for one set, then add a splitter.

You can cascade two 2-way splitters for three sets to get more signal for the longest run.



If you still run out of signal replace the passive splitters with a Channel Master 3412, with one of the two outputs feeding a passive 2-way splitter for the shortest runs. Or, to say it another way, replace the first passive splitter in the above diagram with the 3412.
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File Type: jpg Efficient3waysplit2_1.jpg (59.6 KB, 1300 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 26-Sep-2015 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 26-Sep-2015, 12:03 AM   #5
ngs428
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Thanks for the additional info. I will be purchasing the antenna tonight. I will reply back if I have any questions. Thanks again!

Edit: Thanks for the diagram. I purchased 2 RCA DH24SPF splitters, the Antennas Direct C2v and the FM trap you recommended. Now I just need to determine my cable runs so I can purchase some cable and run a test setup to find the best antenna position.

I need to think this one through, because running the -3.5dB loss coax to the TV needing the best signal will result in longer runs for the other 2 TVs. I may need to compromise here.

I am looking at antenna on roof to cable run to the attic, to FM trap, to splitter, the -3.5dB to a TV with a long run then the other cable form the splitter to the basement to run a TV in the basement and on the main floor. The TV with the long run mentioned is positioned high on the wall so I plan to run the cable from the attic.

Last edited by ngs428; 26-Sep-2015 at 2:51 PM.
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Old 30-Sep-2015, 5:51 PM   #6
ngs428
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The ideal location based on my testing this past weekend was pointing the antenna at about 194 degrees right at channel 7, 9, 20 tower. Channel 27 was at about 75% signal strength. Installing the fm trap did not seem to change anything, but I suppose I will leave it in the system.

I could not get channel 27 any stronger, even when pointing directly in that direction. I think there were just too many trees in the way. But the leaves are now starting to fall here...
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Old 11-Oct-2015, 3:53 AM   #7
ngs428
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Well, the setup is in. Antenna on the roof, using monoprice quad shield tables. I am getting 100% signal strength on CBS, ABC, PBS and a better than ever 82% signal strength on NBC. FOX right now is being broadcast on a CBS sub channel.

Thanks for the help Rabbit73!
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Old 11-Oct-2015, 2:42 PM   #8
rabbit73
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Thanks for your report of good reception. Glad that I was able to help.
Quote:
Antenna on the roof
The coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

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Last edited by rabbit73; 11-Oct-2015 at 5:01 PM.
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Old 19-Oct-2015, 1:30 AM   #9
ngs428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post



If you still run out of signal replace the passive splitters with a Channel Master 3412, with one of the two outputs feeding a passive 2-way splitter for the shortest runs. Or, to say it another way, replace the first passive splitter in the above diagram with the 3412.
One follow up item. For some reason my signal strength on 27.1 dropped to about 40% today, half of what it was. Not sure what is going on. Leaves are falling here, so I figured that I would get better reception if anything.

In the diagram you are recommending a 3412 to replace the splitter that is connected directly to the antenna, correct? Then one output will go to the other splitter and one to the coax going to one of the 3 TV's.

I may have to try this if my strength does not come back.. In a pinch I installed my amplifier from the RCA ANT1650F before the 2nd splitter (I had power already there) and I was able to get to a watchable signal.

Edit: There are others reporting reception issues over the last day. May be a station issue. Hopefully something they can resolve. if you could still address my question about the 3412 location that would be great.

Last edited by ngs428; 19-Oct-2015 at 1:38 AM.
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Old 19-Oct-2015, 6:03 PM   #10
rabbit73
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Quote:
In the diagram you are recommending a 3412 to replace the splitter that is connected directly to the antenna, correct? Then one output will go to the other splitter and one to the coax going to one of the 3 TV's.
Yes, but only if it is needed. It is a balancing act because of the great difference in strength between WSAW and W27AU. Too much amplification can cause tuner overload which might make it even more difficult to receive W27AU, because the distortion products from the overload might wipe out your weakest signals.

Code:
                                       TV 1 needing strongest signal
       outside                           /
Ant > grounding > coax > FM trap > CM3412            TV 2
       block                             \          /   
                                        2-Way Splitter 
                                                    \
                                                     TV 3
WSAW is your strongest signal with a Noise Margin of 78.6 dB, even before adding the antenna and amp gains, which puts it in the Overload category.



Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report

http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html
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Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Oct-2015 at 7:20 PM.
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Old 19-Oct-2015, 7:09 PM   #11
rabbit73
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If there is still too much difference in strength between WSAW and W27AU, you can make WSAW and WAOW weaker by attenuating VHF only:


Code:
 
                              10 dB  
                            attenuator             TV 1 needing strong signal
       outside            V/         \V             /
Ant > grounding > coax > UVSJ       UVSJ > FM > CM3412           TV 2
       block              U\         /U   trap      \           /
                           coax jumper             2-Way Splitter 
                                                                \
                                                                 TV 3
The first UVSJ separates VHF and UHF so that they can be treated separately; the second UVSJ recombines them.

Quote:
May be a station issue. Hopefully something they can resolve.
Can you call the W27AU station engineer? Since W27AU is a translator, you might have to call the master station WJFW.

http://www.wjfw.com/contact.html
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Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Oct-2015 at 7:36 PM.
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Old 19-Oct-2015, 8:43 PM   #12
ngs428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
If there is still too much difference in strength between WSAW and W27AU, you can make WSAW and WAOW weaker by attenuating VHF only:


Code:
 
                              10 dB  
                            attenuator             TV 1 needing strong signal
       outside            V/         \V             /
Ant > grounding > coax > UVSJ       UVSJ > FM > CM3412           TV 2
       block              U\         /U   trap      \           /
                           coax jumper             2-Way Splitter 
                                                                \
                                                                 TV 3
The first UVSJ separates VHF and UHF so that they can be treated separately; the second UVSJ recombines them.

Can you call the W27AU station engineer? Since W27AU is a translator, you might have to call the master station WJFW.

http://www.wjfw.com/contact.html
Make absolute sense. Thanks for the added troubleshooting.

Also, I just contacted the station directly. Waiting on a reply.

Edit: the station engineer confirmed they are experiencing issues and are working to resolve. They are currently broadcasting at reduced power.

Last edited by ngs428; 20-Oct-2015 at 5:35 PM.
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Old 18-Sep-2016, 7:55 PM   #13
ngs428
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Almost a year later, all channels are coming in aside from 33-1, 33-2 and 33-3, the FOX WZAW channels. They used to be 55-1, 55-2 and 55-3, but recently changed and are still broadcasting from the same location. They still broadcast with what seems to be low power and are not even on the TV Fool report. They broadcast out of a true 58 degrees while channel 27 broadcasts out of a true 166 degrees. Seems like it is too much separation for my clearstream 2V which has a 70 Degrees (Horizontal Plane) Reception Pattern. 33-1 since I added the CM3412 just pixelates every 30 seconds or so.

I currently have the following as a setup:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/udlyjahbtg...tenna.jpg?dl=0

I can also get Fox on 7-3, so this is not a big issue. 7.3 seems to not have as much bandwidth as 33-1.

Thoughts get 33-1 in better? Possibly a different antenna?

Last edited by ngs428; 19-Sep-2016 at 6:27 PM.
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Old 20-Sep-2016, 2:07 AM   #14
rabbit73
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You are correct, WZAW doesn't show on the tvfool report, but it does show on a rabbitears.info search. The tvfool website is short on people to do updates.
rabbitears search
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php



What you get is a lot like a tvfool report with the channels listed in decreasing order of strength.

WZAW is about 15 dB weaker, so you need an antenna with more gain aimed directly at it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ngs428TVFre2.JPG (133.9 KB, 542 views)
__________________
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Last edited by rabbit73; 20-Sep-2016 at 2:16 AM.
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Old 20-Sep-2016, 3:09 AM   #15
ngs428
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Thanks for the reply Rabbit73. My 2 weakest channels (27 and 33) are 108 degrees apart. Seems as though I would need an antenna not as directional as my Clearstream 2v.

Odd thing is, when I point my 2v antenna directly at WZAW 33 it actually comes in worse than my current setup where I have it aimed directly at channel 27.

Thoughts on some good high gain antenna options? Thanks again!
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