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Old 24-Aug-2016, 4:59 PM   #21
lviperz
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Guess before I spend more good money I will get on the main roof and have a look from the chimney.

Or another thought. What if I aimed the antenna right at WTVW and use a pre-amp? I will have to check the signal strength of all the stations when I do that.
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Old 24-Aug-2016, 7:22 PM   #22
rabbit73
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Quote:
What if I aimed the antenna right at WTVW and use a pre-amp? I will have to check the signal strength of all the stations when I do that.
That would be worth a try. First aim it at WTVW without a preamp and see if you still get the other three. Then add a medium gain preamp that is resistant to overload. The 8-port distribution amp doesn't have a lot of gain, so you probably will not need to replace it with ordinary splitters. You could always insert a splitter as an attenuator between the preamp power inserter and the distribution amp if tuner overload became a problem.

The antennas Direct Juice preamp is resistant to overload; it doesn't have an FM filter (which could be added), but it does have a 4G-LTE filter that blocks cell transmitters just above CH51. A CM3410 distribution amp is also resistant to overload, and can be used as a preamp.

You do have some strong local FM signals that might require an FM filter. I did an FM report based on my estimate of your location:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/7...9/Radar-FM.png

You can do your own report here, but it doesn't link like a tvfool report:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29
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Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Aug-2016 at 7:54 PM.
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Old 24-Aug-2016, 7:57 PM   #23
lviperz
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Out of curiosity, is there a way to calculate the beamwidth of the stealthtenna?
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Old 24-Aug-2016, 8:53 PM   #24
rabbit73
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Not easily done. It is usually measured on an antenna range, by noting the two azimuths where the gain is 3 dB down from the max; these two points are also called the half-power points.

Now maybe some more about overload:

WEVV has a Noise Margin of 56.8 dB. If you add the 10.5 dB gain of a Winegard HD7694P, that brings you up to 67.3 dB; that's OK.



Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

WEVV has a signal power of -34.0 dBm = 15 dBmV

The CM7778 has a max input of 34 dBmV

WEVV 15 dBmV + 10.5 dB ant gain = 25.5 dBmV; OK

WEVV -34.0 dBm + 10.5 dB ant + preamp gain 16 dB = -7.5 dBm; close to tuner overload

ATSC Recommended Practice:
Receiver Performance Guidelines


Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010

RECEIVER PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES

5.1 Sensitivity


Quote:
A DTV receiver should achieve a bit error rate in the transport stream of no worse than 3x10E-6 (i.e., the FCC Advisory Committee on Advanced Television Service, ACATS, Threshold of Visibility, TOV) for input RF signal levels directly to the tuner from –83 dBm to –5 dBm for both the VHF and UHF bands.
5.2 Multi-Signal Overload

Quote:
The DTV receiver should accommodate more than one undesired, high-level, NSTC or DTV signal at its input, received from transmission facilities that are in close proximity to one another. For purposes of this guideline, it should be assumed that multiple signals, each approaching –8 dBm, will exist at the input of the receiver.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Aug-2016 at 9:02 PM.
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Old 24-Aug-2016, 9:12 PM   #25
lviperz
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Great info. I really appreciate it.

From what I have learned here, it appears that using the Winegard HD7694P alone, pointed more towards WTVW may actually be all I need. That of course depends on the trees.

I was messing with the interactive map on here and moving my antenna position at different locations and it's highly possible that mounting to my chimney may give me a better LOS to WTVW. However, it might put the trees in the way for the other 3 stations. But if they are strong enough and the antenna gain is enough, I may be able to overcome it by aiming more towards those stations.

I will try and get up on the roof this weekend so I can get a visual.
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Old 24-Aug-2016, 9:40 PM   #26
lviperz
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To add to my last post. The reason I believe the Winegard HD7694P may be enough is because I currently receive the 3 stations just fine. WTVW drops out a few times maybe every few minutes to once or twice per hour. Usually less drop outs at night. So my thoughts are the Winegard HD7694P may give just enough extra gain and wider beamwidth to overcome the leaves.
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Old 25-Aug-2016, 12:10 AM   #27
rabbit73
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Your chances are good.

Don't make any permanent mounting until you try a test for another location. The signal strength of a problem channel can vary according to the location on your property. It's not just because of the trees, but also because the wave front of the incoming signal might be non-uniform. The best location for the signal might not be where you want the antenna, but your plan sounds logical to me.

I was having trouble receiving CH 42 because my antenna was facing the wrong direction. I went across the street and setup a 2-bay UHF antenna, my meter, and a preamp. I was able to get a nice scan and a stronger signal with the antenna aimed at the transmitter for CH42.

Interestingly, when I moved the antenna a few feet left or right, without changing the height or azimuth, there was a big difference in the signal strength and scan quality. This is most likely because of the tree line in front of the antenna about 200 ft away which created the non-uniform field.

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Last edited by rabbit73; 25-Aug-2016 at 1:57 AM.
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Old 25-Aug-2016, 12:16 AM   #28
rabbit73
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Quote:
I was messing with the interactive map on here and moving my antenna position at different locations and it's highly possible that mounting to my chimney may give me a better LOS to WTVW.
Did you turn on the green signal lines to show the signal path?

For example, like this

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Old 25-Aug-2016, 1:53 AM   #29
lviperz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Did you turn on the green signal lines to show the signal path?

For example, like this

Yes, I had the green lines on. That's how I saw the direction for aiming the antenna. I'll do it again and try to capture the image so you can see.
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Old 25-Aug-2016, 8:13 PM   #30
lviperz
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So here are the images from the interactive map showing the current location, possible chimney as well as the front of the house. All 3 show the lines indicating the path to the stations.

I still have to get on the roof to make sure I will clear the neighbors house. I have a story and a half, he has an actual 2 story house.


Current location of antenna


If I mounted on the chimney


I don't really want this location. I don't really want to see the antenna from the front like that. Beside, how to get that past the wife with a 1 year old new roof would prove difficult.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MapView-Current-1_resize.jpg (209.6 KB, 319 views)
File Type: jpg MapView-Chimney-2_resize.jpg (211.2 KB, 310 views)
File Type: jpg MapView-Front-3_resize.jpg (211.8 KB, 301 views)

Last edited by lviperz; 1-Sep-2016 at 8:57 PM. Reason: Updated image sizes
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Old 26-Aug-2016, 1:38 AM   #31
rabbit73
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Thanks for the interesting photos. Good analysis. You do have a lot of trees in your most needed direction. I don't see an easy solution. The antenna needs to be where the signals are, and the trees will continue to grow.

An Antennas Direct C2V might look a little better from the street. I wonder if it has enough gain if you can get it high enough.

(I try to limit the width of my photos to 800 pixels. Otherwise the post gets too wide and then the type is too small.)

Wish I had a better answer for you.

73,
W4...
ex-W2...
ex-DL4..

Once-upon-a-time, many years ago, there were no trees.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg lviperzTVFnotrees.JPG (28.7 KB, 359 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 26-Aug-2016 at 2:10 AM.
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Old 26-Aug-2016, 1:37 PM   #32
lviperz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thanks for the interesting photos. Good analysis. You do have a lot of trees in your most needed direction. I don't see an easy solution. The antenna needs to be where the signals are, and the trees will continue to grow.

An Antennas Direct C2V might look a little better from the street. I wonder if it has enough gain if you can get it high enough.

(I try to limit the width of my photos to 800 pixels. Otherwise the post gets too wide and then the type is too small.)

Wish I had a better answer for you.

73,
W4...
ex-W2...
ex-DL4..

Once-upon-a-time, many years ago, there were no trees.

Ha ha ha. Yeah. Several years ago I used to be able to look out my back windows and see the Ohio river. Now it's all jungle. And I think my neighbor actually thinks he is living off the grid somewhere with all the additional trees he is planting. Just going to get tougher in the next few years. So either I will have to put up a tall pole with guy wires or find another home for the tower. Either way I'll have to sacrifice looks for signal.

On another note. The only way I have to measure my signal is with the old HDhomerun Duals that I have or by watching on my tv. Unfortunately I don't have a signal meter on my tv. But I watch WTVW through the HDHR and like I said, I get about 65% signal and I see slight drop outs every few minutes. However, I do not see them near as often directly on the tv.

Thinking the tuners in the HDHR are old and weak, I contacted Silicondust and asked about the tuner difference in my old model and the newer models. They told me the new models have better tuners and I should see better results.

They backed this claim up by offering me a deep discount for the new model. So I gave it some thought for a few days and decided I would try the new model. When I said I wanted to buy 2 of them, I was told they were low on stock and couldn't get them to me yet. So they actually offered to send me 2 refurb units at no charge. Then said when the new units are back in stock I can buy the new unit or just keep the refurb units.

Now that's customer service.

73's to you too rabbit
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Old 26-Aug-2016, 7:03 PM   #33
lviperz
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I finally got my RMA from channel master to return the CM-4228HD antenna. Return shipping costs are my responsibility and I figured the thing only weighed 10 pounds so how much can it cost? OMG!

I went online to the 2 main shipping providers, USPS, UPS and Fedex. I cannot believe the rates.

Fedex - $41
UPS - $53
USPS - $129

All because of the package size and not the actual weight. I know there is no way channel master paid $53 to ship it free to me, but OMG.

Guess I'll just keep it and wait for a friend to need something like it. Once you consider the chance channel master may add a 25% restocking fee and add in the shipping, that's like buying the antenna in the first place.

Ok, rant over.
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Old 1-Sep-2016, 8:49 PM   #34
lviperz
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Just wanted to share an update. My free refurb HDhomerun Connects arrived today. I will test them out on the current setup this weekend. I wanted to see if there were any improvements in the tuner before I tried moving and/or getting a new antenna.

I have not had a chance to get on the roof to scout out a different location yet. Had some rain last weekend. Supposed to be beautiful out this weekend so hoping to find the time to get up there and have a look.

Oh, and I was able to ship the CM-4228HD back from work. Work gets discounts so it only cost me $20 to ship it. Now lets hope they don't apply the restocking fee.
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Old 2-Sep-2016, 7:42 PM   #35
lviperz
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I fired up one of the HDHR4-2US units I received. The tuner in it is a lot better than the old units I have, but not enough to leave the antenna where it is.

The new unit shows about 3% to 5% better on the signal strength but signal quality and symbol stayed the same. There are less drop outs however, but still drop outs. The new unit also picked up another station from the back of the antenna that the old units do not. WSIL is behind my antenna.

Guess my next step is to scout out a place on my roof. Hopefully this weekend.
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Old 3-Sep-2016, 10:00 PM   #36
lviperz
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View From Roof

So I finally got on the roof today. Not one of my favorite things to do anymore. Guess I lost some nerve as I aged. Anyway, here are 3 shots from the chimney. Height is about 30 feet. I took shots in the direction of WTVW, in between where the antenna would point and finally towards WFIE, WEVV and WEHT. So basically starting West then moving right towards the South.


Looking towards WTVW


Looking towards where the antenna would point. Midway between the furthest stations.


Looking towards WFIE, WEVV and WEHT

The chimney on this old house only extends maybe 2 feet from the ridge. So the most height I could probably get is 5 foot off the ridge. So basically the height I took the pictures from.

Now comes the questions. First off I'm thinking the beamwidth of the stealthtenna I'm currently using isn't all that wide. So probably might do fine with the Winegard HD7694P at the current location. Thoughts?

My other question is about my tower. I have another 10 foot section I can add but I'm worried about needing guy wires. I currently have the tower strapped to the flat roof with 18" metal straps. THe tower is currently 4 feet above the roof. If I add another 10 foot section, would the current straps at about 15' be enough to stabilize the tower? Or should I use some guy wires?

I could easily run 2 guy wires to the east at the North and South ends of the roof. The other guy wire would have to go West and there is a utility pole there in my yard. No services on it any longer so I could anchor it there.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20160903_134254_resize.jpg (251.0 KB, 277 views)
File Type: jpg 20160903_134257_resize.jpg (250.6 KB, 279 views)
File Type: jpg 20160903_134300_resize.jpg (238.5 KB, 267 views)
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Old 3-Sep-2016, 11:49 PM   #37
rabbit73
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Thanks for the photos.
Quote:
Not one of my favorite things to do anymore. Guess I lost some nerve as I aged.
I feel the same way.
Quote:
So basically starting West then moving right towards the South.
Huh? Starting East and moving South?
Quote:
I'm thinking the beamwidth of the stealthtenna I'm currently using isn't all that wide. So probably might do fine with the Winegard HD7694P at the current location. Thoughts?
I think the beamwidth of the stealthtenna is at least as much as the 7694. There is an inverse relationship between gain and beamwidth. More beamwidth means less gain; more gain means less beamwidth.

Your photos show that you must go higher. You must not extend your mast without guy wires. A good solution, to keep ahead of the tree growth, would be a 5 or 10 ft tripod at the peak installed by a roofer to reduce the chances of leaks from roof penetration by fasteners. An alternative would be a Rohn 25G tower (expensive) somewhere on your property. Another alternative would be a tilt up mast to keep you off the roof or tower.

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Tilt-Over_Mast

http://www.wv7u.com/mast/mast.html

http://freeantennas.com/tilt-over-tower/index.html
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TiltUpMast.jpg (63.4 KB, 108 views)
__________________
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Last edited by rabbit73; 4-Sep-2016 at 12:33 AM.
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Old 4-Sep-2016, 12:40 AM   #38
lviperz
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Yeah, got my East and West reversed. Sorry about that.

The current tower I have is a 30' tower but I'm only using 2 of the sections. So only at 20 feet right now. The pole is a 20' telescoping pole. So I should be able to reach 50' as long as I can guy it safely. But I still wonder if I should add guy wire to the tower since 15' of the tower would be above the roof. I would of course add guy wire to the telescoping pole at the half way point. I'm just concerned about the 15' of tower above the roof.

Guess if I'm going to go through the trouble of adding guy wire, why not add more to be safe.

I like the idea of the tilt-over-mast, thanks for sharing that idea. But I don't really have any area in the yard for that. If I didn't have the back extension on the house I would just put the tower at the end of the house and strap it at the eve.
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