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Old 28-Jul-2014, 3:20 AM   #1
Darken
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Join Date: Jul 2014
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Best Approach

Hello All,

Was hoping someone could spare a moment to lend a little advice. Im looking to cut my cable and would like to get an antenna, here's my plot:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c67d09264635

At first glance it looks promising but im a little concerned with the distance to the USA networks. I will have about 100 feet of coax feeding 1 television and im in the foothills of a mountain so quite a few trees. My antenna will be on the roof, approx 25 feet off the ground.

I was hoping someone could suggest an antenna to pick up both the VHF and UHF channels.

Thanks in advance for all who reply.
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Old 28-Jul-2014, 8:24 AM   #2
teleview
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A Simple reception situation.

For reception of USA and Canada Broadcast Tv Stations/Channels.

Above the Peak of the Roof in such a manner that reception is not , obstructed , impeded , blocked , by the roof and building in the directions of , South East , South.

Install a ,

http://www.antennacraft.net.

HBU44 antenna , aimed at about 150 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas ,

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna , do not trust a cell phone , tablet and etc. compass.

As always , antenna aim can be adjusted for best reception.

Most Digital Tv's have a Signal Strength Meter and some Digital Tv's also have a Signal Quality Meter.

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Install a ,

http://www.antennacraft.net.

10G201 preamplifier.

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For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a , Holland electronics , HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

For 4 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-4D , 4 way splitter.

http://www.hollandelectronics.com.

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Here are some and not all above the roof antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html.
Use the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html.
Use the , ronard(4560) , eave antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224) .

http://www.ronard.com

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Here are some places to buy antennas and etc.

http://www.saveandreplay.com.

http://www.trentondistributors.com

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Also know this.

As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , have a Negative
Effect on Broadcast Tv Reception and so do buildings and other obstructions
including your own roof and building.

Some and not all Negative Effects are.

Absorbing and Blocking Reception.

Multi-Path Reflecting Tv Signals Bouncing All Around.

The Best Practice for Reliable Reception is to install the HBU44 antenna at a
location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or
kind in the directions of reception including your own roof and building.

Last edited by teleview; 29-Jul-2014 at 7:14 AM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 29-Jul-2014, 1:13 PM   #3
Darken
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 16
Thanks for the suggestion. Just curious, for a few extra dollars would you recommend getting the hbu-55? It seems to be advertised as having the ability to reach further than the hbu-44 and since I'm looking to try to access towers 100 miles away would it be worth it? I also noticed the wineguard hd7698 received good reviews for "deep fringe" set ups. Just trying to narrow down my options. Thanks for your time
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Old 29-Jul-2014, 5:24 PM   #4
teleview
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Looking at the Radar Map shows Tv stations to the , South East and to the South , the Tv stations are spread over a wide angle.

So the HBU44 antenna is selected because the HBU44 has a Wider Forward Angle of Reception.

The forward angle of reception is also known as Beamwidth.

The HBU55 and HD6798P antennas have narrower beamwidths , a narrower beamwidth is not good for your reception situation.

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Maximum antenna gain is not the , be all and end all , when the signal reception is reduced at forward angles to the antenna because a narrow forward beamwidth.


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An alternate setup I can recommend is a 2 antenna setup to cover the wide angle of reception.

Install a , http://www.antennacraft.net.

Y10-7-13 VHF high band channels 7 thru 13 antenna aimed at about 154 degree magnetic compass direction for reception of , WVNY-DT , ABC , Real VHF high band channel 13.

And install a , Antennas Direct , DB8e , current UHF channels 14 thru 51 antenna.

Aim 1 panel at about 160 degree magnetic compass direction.

Aim the other panel at about 140 degree magnetic compass direction.

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Install the Y10-7-13 antenna about 3 feet below the DB8e antenna on the same antenna mast/pipe.

----

Install a , http://www.antennacraft.net.

10G221 preamplifier.

-----

Connect the Y10-7-13 antenna to the VHF connection of the 10G221 preamp.

Connect the DB8e antenna to the UHF connection of the 10G221 preamp.

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Home Depot has , TOP RAIL , chain link fence , PIPE , that makes good antenna mast/pipe.

The sizes are ,

10 feet - 4 inch long , 1 and 3/8 inch diameter.

and

10 feet - 6 inch long , 1 and 3/8 inch diameter.


---------------------------------

Here is important information.

Some of the signal strengths of the Tv stations you will like to receive are Weak Signal Strengths.

Avoiding obstructions to reception in the directions of reception is Important.

Last edited by teleview; 1-Aug-2014 at 8:13 PM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 10-Aug-2014, 12:28 AM   #5
Darken
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 16
Hi all,

Figured i'd help out as best i can by posting my results. I went with a Winegard 7698p and decided to try it out in the attic first despite the long distances im trying to receive from USA. And for the most part i consider the attempt a great success. I receive almost all the channels i had hoped to receive from my TV Fool report. Basically all those in YELLOW color code minus FOX and ABC. I even pick up a couple from the "Pending" option. I haven't installed it in any kind of permanent fashion so i will continue playing around with it in my spare time to hopefully pick up FOX and ABC without having to anchor it to my roof. (The antenna is 14 feet long!)

Oddly enough, i am having trouble receiving one of the channels that is listed as one of the strongest. CFCF which is CTV. It seems to be hit or miss and often i find when i place my hand on or near the cartridge housing cover or even when i physically move my body closer and further away from the antenna it greatly affects this channel. Does that seem unusual? Especially since it is supposedly one of my strongest signals? If i can get NBC and CBS crystal clear from 110 miles away in my attic and i can get CBC which is in the same direction and distance what could be causing this channel to break up?

I'll assume that for FOX and ABC they might just be a little too weak to pick up from my attic and im sure the surrounding trees arent helping my cause. Does anyone think a pre-amp could help my situation?

Thanks
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Old 10-Aug-2014, 12:59 AM   #6
teleview
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CFCF is strong signal strength.

The antenna is in the attic.

Attic's Increase Multi-Path.

The multi-path can effect some channels more then others , the effect is highly variable.

Multi-Path is Tv signal bouncing all around in the attic and bouncing off you and when you move around this changes the multi-path.

Multi-Path in attics is Not Good for Reliable Reception.

A amplifier connected to the antenna in the attic will make the reception Worse.

Reason: A antenna system amplifier connected to a antenna that is in the attic

will amplify the multi-path Tv signal bouncing all around in the attic along with

the main direct signal.

Antenna system amplifiers can not tell the difference between reflected signals and main signal.

Amplifiers amplify what ever is fed to it.

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To improve reception move the antenna to a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the direction/s of reception.

Obstructions to reception are , attic , roof , building , trees , tree leaves , plants , plant leaves , hills , mountains , bill boards , signs , tractors , UFO's , and any thing else that is in the way of and is obstructing reception in the direction/s of reception.
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Old 10-Aug-2014, 2:36 AM   #7
StephanieS
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 442
Greetings,

Next step is mounting the antenna outdoors. Attics are terrible for installations. They weaken signals greatly, create unpredictable signal environments and put your antenna much closer to household interference. The fact that you even decode any US broadcasts is a positive sign in the attic.

FOX and ABC are to weak to "punch through" your roof. Outdoors is the only place they'll be received. Generally anything below 20db in signal strength is off the table in a attic install.

Outdoors may remedy your stronger Canadian signal drop outs too. These may be victim of the unpredictable nature of attic environments.

Trees are also a wildcard. They attenuate (read: reduce) signal strength and when they move in the wind they change the situation which the signal is arriving often slicing and dicing the signals. The result you see is a drop out. As such, homeowners hate this recommendation but either 1) Mount above the trees or B) cut the trees down. The best antenna system in the world cannot perform to it's potential with things blocking the signal.

There are some options such as a tower or being creative with mounting your antenna like this:



Though, the next step is testing outdoors. The HBU44 would've been better to test as recommended by Teleview with as it has a wider beamwith. The Winegard being a great performer may not have that sweet spot where you get both US and Canadian channels to your satisfaction.

Cheers.
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Old 10-Aug-2014, 8:28 AM   #8
teleview
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As bad as trees are for reception , when trees are obstructing reception.

A Tall Straight Pine Tree can be used as a Tower to install a antenna UP High so

as to have better reception.

When installing a antenna in a tall pine tree , cut away branches in such a

manner that branches will not whip around in the wind and beat on the antenna.

http://www.ronard.com/tree_adjust.html.

http://www.ronard.com/tree.html.

http://www.ronard.com.

Last edited by teleview; 10-Aug-2014 at 4:10 PM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 10-Aug-2014, 1:29 PM   #9
Darken
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 16
Thanks very much for the suggestions. I went with the winegard 7698p mainly because a friend in a similar situation to mine is using that model with great success. The beamwidth ultimately wasn't my highest priority because i wanted to focus mainly on the channels that were in the 117 to 140 degree range so the others werent on my "wishlist". I certainly understand that setting it up outdoors would be ideal but with such great results from the attic (receiving USA networks from 110 miles away!) i was curious if there was anything else i could do from within the attic to try to receive FOX and ABC? I read at a few places that if a signal strength isnt at least 50% it wont display so im wondering since i do get a couple USA networks at 75% signal strength (CBS and NBC) and as per my TV fool report FOX and ABC are approximately 10 NM(db) and 10 Pwr(dbm) weaker than those channels i already receive from the same direction and distance, would it be fair to assume that im likely getting a very weak signal that my tv tuner just cant yet display? Wouldnt a pre-amp possibly boost that weaker signal just enough to give it chance to be displayed? I figure i cant be missing too much more to get FOX and ABC considering the success i already have with CBS and NBC. Im also curious to see the results as fall rolls around and all the leaves start falling...

Last edited by Darken; 10-Aug-2014 at 1:31 PM.
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Old 10-Aug-2014, 4:40 PM   #10
teleview
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Testing/Experimental.

You can do Any type and Kind of Testing and Experimenting.

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Yes a antenna system amplifier can be installed in the attic.

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I recommend a , http://antennacraft.net.

10G201 preamplifier.

Or

RCA-TVPRAMP1R preamplifier.

Or

Winegard , LNA-100 Boost amplifier.

--------

And Yes it is Ok to Test any Other Antenna System Amplifiers.

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And Yes is Ok to Test any other devices that may or may not improve

reception.

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And Yes is OK to do any other reception testing with any other type or kind of antenna in the attic.

And Yes is Ok to Try Any Thing.

Many people have every type and kind of

information about reception , be it the , Truth , Misinformation , Lies.

--------

And Yes Please Post the situations and results here so that others can learn and

understand more about reception.
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Old 11-Aug-2014, 1:33 AM   #11
StephanieS
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Posts: 442
WCAX (CBS) has a licensed transmitter output of 550,000 watts. WPTZ (NBC) has a licensed output power of 650,000 watts. WETK (PBS) is licensed for 90,000 watts.

Now we have WFFF (FOX) with 47,000 watts and WVNY (ABC) at 10,000 watts.

FOX and ABC are operating at fractions of the power of WCAX and WPTZ. Think of this as trying to see bright spotlight pointed at you from 110 miles. Now imagine trying to see a halogen outdoor lamp in the same circumstance. The comparison may not be exact, but you get the idea over long distances the dimmer light becomes harder to see first assuming nothing is obstructing it. This same principle applies to signals. There is less power behind WFFF and WVNY.

TV internal signal strength meters can often be misleading. Instead of reporting true signal strength, they report error packets and display that as the strength quality of signal.

We've been pretty steadfast in our suggestion of an outdoor antenna mounting solution. While it is a pleasant surprise that some of the US networks are received. Attic installations can lead to endless "tweaking" - signals dropping out here, there. You re-aim the antenna in the attic, others start to come and go. It can be a never ending session of chasing your tail. This due to the unpredictable nature of what attics do to signals.

I do not expect WVNY or WFFF to be received from an attic installation in any circumstance. The only way WVNY and WFFF will be reliably received is via an outdoor antenna. These signals as mentioned before, are not bright "lights" and don't have the horsepower to punch through a roof.

Best of luck whatever you decide.
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Old 11-Aug-2014, 2:05 AM   #12
Darken
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Thanks so much for taking the time to explain the output power situation. Im learning a lot. Although i am intrigued at what might be accomplished by attempting to finalize an attic installation, i decided to take it outside today and placed it in an easy to access area of this "sub roof" where the antenna was approx 15 feet off the ground but had no obstructions aside from trees (i was alone so decided not to risk climbing to the highest point of the roof with the antenna for this test) and i received all channels that my TVFool report mentioned with the exception of ABC. I see now that ABC might be tricky since it is a weaker signal and there are co channel and adjacent channel warnings as well. I will be looking for a tripod and mast to mount it on the roof in the near future. If you have any suggestions for tripods and masts that deliver to the Montreal area i'm all ears.

Thanks again for your time
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