Help choose antenna for attic

[toadcat]

We just built a new house and want to go with OTA tv instead of satellite for now. Here is my set up.

I have 5 home runs of quad shield going from the attic to a data closet. 1 for antenna the other 4 for satellite if we decide to go that route. From that closet I have 12 more quad shield home runs going to various spots in the house for tv connections.

I plan on hooking everything up like this. Antenna-amplifier-joint-8 connection splitter (if possible). The run from the antenna to splitter is about 50-60 feet IF I have to add the joint and place the antenna close the the gable wall. If I don't need the antenna close to the outside gable wall then the run from antenna to splitter will be around 30 feet. The longest run from splitter will be around 40-50 feet.

Here is what I would like recommendations on.

Antenna in attic. The sheathing on the roof has thermal foil on the back. I hope that won't interfere with the signals. The direction the antenna will point will not be through the sheathing but through the siding which is James Hardie concrete siding. Should I place the antenna close to the gable or several feet away from it?

Amplifier as the longest run from the antenna will be around 100 feet.

8 connection splitter. There will be 6 connections now and when I finish the basement there will be 2 more connections.

Here is my TV Signal Analysis.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0559697d58d120

I appreciate any and all information.

I would like to keep the antenna in the attic but if the signals don't come through then I will place on the roof.

Thanks,
JW

[toadcat]

Doing some research and reading it seems like the Winegard HD7696P is highly recommended but has been discontinued. Looking at Winegards website I see they have a more powerful antenna in the HD7697P.

Would the HD7697P be a good recommendation for my situation. It also says "Substitute the HD7084P or HD8200U to add low-band VHF reception." on the page for 7697. Do I need low-band VHF redeption?



As for the splitter, is there a recommended 8 way splitter? There are so many different ones.

I am lost as to the amplifier.

I appreciate the help.

The Broadcast Tv station Are Weak Signal Strength at your location.

Ok , here is how to receive both groups of Broadcast Tv stations/channels , the North West group , and the , North East Group , at the same time with 2 antennas , one preamp , one down lead , and a non power passing 8 way splitter.

Above the Peak Of The Roof in such a manner that reception is not impeded and blocked by the roof and house in the directions of , North West , North East.

Install a AntennasDirect , Clear Stream 4 UHF antenna with the ->Reflector Screens Removed.

This will allow the CS4 to receive at the front and back of the CS4 antenna.

Aim the CS4 antenna at about 85 degree magnetic compass direction , this will position the CS4 to receive the 2 groups of Tv stations at the front and back of the CS4 antenna.

Adjust the aim direction of the CS4 antenna for best reception of the 2 groups of Tv stations directions.

Also install a AntennaCraft , Y10-7-13 VHF high band antenna aimed at about 320 degree magnetic compass direction.

___

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

___

The CS4 and Y10-7-13 antennas Must Be Up In The Air Clear of Obstructions to reception by the roof and house.

___

The CS4 and Y10-7-13 antennas are connected together with a UHF/VHF diplexer/combiner. AntennasDirect , Model Number , EU385CF-1s .

___

Install a Channel Master CM7777 preamp to the output of the UHF/VHF combiner so that both antennas are amplified at the same time.

___

The , preamp unit , power injector , power supply , are all connected , before the input of a , Non power passing , 8 way passive splitter.

So power supply and power injector is going to the preamp unit only.

A Non power passing splitter is used , so as to not pass the preamp power out to Tv locations.

If 6 Tv's are connected , then use a 6 way Non power passing passive splitter.

___________________

Here are some above the roof antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html.
Use the 5 foot tripod antenna mount , ronard (911).

http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html.
Use the , ronard (4560) , eave antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.
Measure the chimney and use a , ronard (2212) , ronard (2218) , ronard (2224) .

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing , ronard (x) , in the solisignal search box or buy from ronard.

_______________

Here are some places to buy antennas and ect. .

http://www.solidsignal.com.

http://www.amazon.com.

http://www.antennacraft.net.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com.

http://www.antennasdirect.com.

___________________________________________

[toadcat]

teleview,
Thank you for the detailed instructions. Do I need the dual antenna? Won't the stations from Topeka be the same from KC or will they have different programming?

Granted I like the idea of having more channels but it is not needed.

Looks like I will have a good project once all the materials arrive.

Thanks!

[toadcat]

One other question.

Can the CS4 be mounted on the mast below the Y10-7-13?

To keep it Simple.

If you like you can install 1 antenna , HD7696P antenna or HD7697P antenna aimed at about 45 degree magnetic compass direction.

KQSA has The Country Network on channel 12 in the direction of 320 degree magnetic compass direction , the signal strength is Very Weak.

KQSA is the main reason for the the 2 antenna set up , other then that the Networks are the same NBC , FOX , ABC , CW , PBS , MyNetwork , same Networks , both directions , the local programing and ads, will be different.

_____

Makes no difference the antenna that is on top or bottom.

I think it looks better to have the Y10-7-13 on the bottom and the CS4 on the top , however either way is Ok.

[ADTech]

Antenna in attic. The sheathing on the roof has thermal foil on the back. I hope that won't interfere with the signals. The direction the antenna will point will not be through the sheathing but through the siding which is James Hardie concrete siding. Should I place the antenna close to the gable or several feet away from it?

Forget the attic. Hardie-board and radiant barrier are both signal killers.


Kansas City's station's are all UHF, Topeka's are a mix of UHF and high-VHF. If you want both cities, it's going to take some work and luck. A single city would be easy. The biggest advantage of getting both would probably be sporting events that might be blacked out in one city but not the other. Your choice

The reflector-less C4 won't work, sorry, the beamwidth is too narrow. If you want to try two antennas tied together, select ones with significant nulls at 90° and keep them at right angles to each other. Amplify each separately, then combine the the amplified output using a reversed splitter. Cross your fingers and hold your breath, because this is not a high-reliability proposition.

Best of luck!

AD Tech's reference to 2 UHF antennas.

A Antenna Directs , DB8e , 2 panels that can be aimed different directions and receive 2 different directions at the same time.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...V-Antenna.html.

Aim one panel to the , North East Group of Tv stations.

And the other panel at the , North West group of Tv stations.

[Pete Higgins]

toadcat,

I’ve had cable for the last 32 years, so “playing” with TV antennas has become more of a hobby than a necessity. I tried using an 8-Bay Bow Tie with movable panels to receive stations from two different markets (~123 deg. apart) and had very poor results (my signals are even weaker than yours, so I lost almost everything).

A gentleman on this forum (tripelo) explained that when the panels aren’t aligned in the same plain with both panels’ signals arriving on the same channel(s) in phase and adding in the combiner, the signals on one panel see the other panel and ~½ of the signal is reradiated by the different panel. To prevent this he recommended “isolating” one panel from the other using pre-amps, exactly what ADTech recommended. He recommended using “matched” preamps which I didn’t have so I kind of winged it with what I had and it made all the difference in the world.

A single 4-Bay in each direction didn’t provide enough signal strength at my location so I applied the same logic to two 8-Bays with much better results. I also added a VHF High antenna to receive VHF signals from one market.

Here is a link to a power passing combiner that will pass power to two amplifiers isolating two panels or two separate UHF antennas; http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...ce=google_base

Here is a link to a whole series of posts on the experiments I recently ran with pictorials of my working design (post # 40); http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2288

If you truly want to feed up to 8 different sets I would recommend an amplified 8-Way splitter like the PCT MA2 -8P; http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...er-(pct-ma2-8p)

I assume a rotor to turn your antennas isn’t practical because people in different parts of the house are going to want to watch channels arriving from different directions?

Information about the reception element of a antenna and a reflector that is
'behind' the reception element.

A reflector that is 'behind' the reception element creates a narrower forward beam width and the greatest amount of reception is one direction.

Removing the reflector so that only the reception element remains will Increase the beam width to a Very Wide Beam Width.

As an example.

The standard indoor rabbit ears type antenna , 2 reception rods for VHF reception , has - Very Wide Beam Widths - and is a Bi Directional Antenna.

The UHF reception Loop that is part of the standard indoor rabbit ears type antenna is a single reception element and has Very Wide Beam Widths and is also Bi Directional.

The same situation also applies to the CS4 UHF antenna UHF reception Loops.

With the reflector screens removed , the CS4 has Very Wide Beam Widths and is Bi Directional.

Receiving on both sides of the CS4 antenna.

My evaluation is , the CS4 antenna with no reflector screens , will receive the groups of Tv stations to the , North West and North East.

[toadcat]

Oh my. All this has become more confusing. I didn't think OTA would be so complex. Just an antenna, point it where the stations are, watch TV.

What do all these numbers and acronyms mean? There are people with different views on what to do and each have different equipment recommendations. I don't mind figuring out stuff on my own, but I can't be buying all this stuff and then have to buy more because it didn't work.

I guess I was really hoping that a suggestion would come up and people would agree that is the best coarse or action. I do appreciate everyone's knowledge and willingness to share it.


Teleview...I like the idea of trying to pick up that topeka station with "The Country Network". If you think taking the reflectors off the CS4 will allow for picking up that station then I will go that route. I guess the CS4 will be pointing Northwest, correct?

Pete...It sounds like you know what you are talking about by saying I should put two amplifiers on my setup. One for each antenna before the combiner.

Again, thanks for all the help.

[ADTech]

Removing the reflector so that only the reception element remains will Increase the beam width to a Very Wide Beam Width.

Adding directors or placing multiple elements in a horizontal array will narrow the horizontal beamwidth. Reflectors increase forward gain by suppressing the rear lobe.

With the reflector screens removed , the CS4 ,,,,, is Bi Directional.

Absolutely correct.

With the reflector screens removed , the CS4 has Very Wide Beam Widths a.....

This is incorrect. The reflector on a panel-style antenna,whether loops or bowties, has little effect on the horizontal beamwidth of the antenna's main forward lobe.

In any event, trying to pick up signals from 45° off boresight with an antenna that exhibits a horizontal beamwidth of less than 45° won't work unless you happen have a side-lobe that lines up with the signal path on the frequencies of interest.

I don't have polar plots of the C4 sans reflectors, but I do have ones of a single tapered loop with and without reflectors that exhibit the behavior I described. I've also located some plots of a commercial 8-bay with and without reflectors that also exhibit the expected behavior.

[toadcat]

Ok, so I can get all this stuff ordered and on the way so I can install. Can I get confirmation that this would be the best set-up?

1. Antennas Direct Clear Stream 4 pointed to the northeast. I'll leave the reflectors on.
2. Antenna Craft Y10-7-13 pointed to the northwest.
3. Two Channel Master CM7777 added in line before the next item.
4. Antennas Direct EU385CF-1s UHF/VHF combiner
5. When needed as we only have one tv right now. A non-power passive splitter for however many tvs we have.

I appreciate the help.

[toadcat]

Just thinking. Could I buy two UHF/VHF antennas and point one toward KC and the other to Topeka and receive both versions of channels from each market? Or am I just thinking way to simple about it. For example:

Two of these - Solid Signal Xtreme Signal HDB91x with one pointed 85 degree the other at 320.
Or two of these pointed the same - Antennacraft HBU33 High-VHF/UHF Antenna.

[toadcat]

Another option. Buy a UHF antenna to point towards KC and a Hi-Band VHF to get the one channel from Topeka as my wife likes watching country music videos.

If so any recommendations for which antennas to get? Can I still do the setup as mentioned before. Antenna, preamp for each antenna, combiner to tv.

Sorry for all the questions and confusion/questions. The wife is wanting tv for the kids now and I am lost with all this as we have always had free cable because she worked for the cable company. Now with our move we have no access to cable and I don't want to get into a contract with a satellite company.

[ADTech]

There are multiple options to consider. Generically:


KC only - A single, long-range UHF antenna. No pre-amp is likely to be needed for a single set.

Topeka only, all channels - A long-range high-VHF/UHF combo antenna. Needs pre-amp.

KC plus Topeka VHF - A long-range UHF antenna aimed at KC and a high-VHF antenna at Topeka, combine with U/V combiner. Pre-amp needed.

KC plus all Topeka - see post #7 (requires two pre-amps and a double cable run).

There are far better choices in pre-amps than the CM7777. It's high gain makes it easy to overload a system and it should be used with discretion only when needed. FWIW, I have yet to find an amplifier in any chain retail store that carries a pre-amp that I like. You'll likely do best if an appropriate amp is ordered.

Realistically, you could have something up in the air this afternoon or tomorrow as a start. Best Buy carries the C4 with 20" CJ-mount in many of their stores. Add the necessary coax to install the antenna pointed at KC and hook the single set up, configure everything, then evaluate for subsequent steps as needed.

At this point, you'd do best to make a decision as to what option best serves your needs as an initial step. Most of the options I laid out offer a good basis for growing the system.

Best of luck!

[toadcat]

ADTech, thanks for the replies. I go with the first option just to get up and running and if the wife wants the other channel from Topeka then I'll add to what I have.

Any guidance on the HD Stacker Antenna from Denny's?

[Pete Higgins]

toadcat,

ADTech laid out all the practical options I could think of and he’s a professional.

One thing that did occur to me is that if you decide to buy a preamp, you should at least run an FM Fool report to look for strong nearby FM stations. Typically, the more gain a preamp has the more prone it is to overloading from one or more strong local stations that fall within its band pass. It doesn’t appear that you have any nearby TV stations to worry about but FM stations can be just as lethal. From what I’ve read, the Channel Master CM-7777 is one of the more overload prone.

Antennas Direct also sells the Clear Stream 4 bundled with a PA-18 VHF/UHF amplifier, 100’ of coax and a ‘J’ Mount that might give you everything you need to get up and running.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream4-Digital-Antenna-Bundle.html

I have a Antennas Direct 91XG that performance & construction wise I am very happy with.

Perhaps ADTech can address the relative merits of each for your situation. I know I would be very interested in the comparison.

[ADTech]

Any guidance on the HD Stacker Antenna from Denny's?

Well, he's never provided any useful performance data on the antenna (even when pressed), I've never tested it (don't plan to, either), you have no need for its low-VHF elements which contribute to its size and bulk, and I'd suspect that the Siamese twin concept has ill-considered side effects in terms of undesirable coupling between the two antenna sections.

The C4 and other UHF-only antennas shouldn't be particularly susceptible to FM interference. In any event, that issue is easily handled with FM traps/filters in most circumstances.

Our PA18 would certainly be recommended for this application should a pre-amp be required.

[coco]

I've been having a HD STACKER since May 2010 with no problems.It is a VHF-HI &UHF antenna. It is only 60 inches wide by 70 inches long, and weighs only 9 pounds. Here is my TVF report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9900d006f15e2a
I catch everything on my list down to: WLPB channel 24 PBS 24 hours-7 days .
I catch down to WLOX channnel 39 ABC after dark. I have my Stacker on a rotor. '