60 miles away from broadcast tower..help

[GroundUrMast]

Originally Posted by teleview

Management 'allows' antennas on patios and balconies because the the Federal Antenna Law says you can put antennas on patios and balconies that are part of your unit and are under your direct control.

As to the grounding issue , think about this , are any of the other antennas on other patios and balconies grounded as has been recommended here , but not by me.

And as to the grounding issue , I given my answer.

@teleview, Citing examples of deficient installations is poor reasoning. If the driver of the car next to you on the freeway is 25 MPH over, drunk, texting, not wearing their seat belt, all as their little kids in the back roll around with no restraint -- Would you argue that you have reason to do likewise? Your past comments have always been vague, implying that grounding is not important and that it's not worth mentioning. If that's your position, we disagree.

@tvsimpsons, If there is no practical way to ground the antenna in a way that meets local code, at least use the means available to you. As a last resort, consider using a surge protector outlet strip. http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-...1#.UHGoKa6mV68

[rabbit73]

I agree that you should at least find a way to ground the coax for reasons of personal electrical safety. I use a grounding block that is connected to the electrical system ground with no. 10 copper wire.

The power supplies in equipment now are mostly switchmode power supplies (switchers) for reasons of efficiency. Switchers have more AC leakage current than the older transformer operated power supplies. All power supplies have some leakage current which puts a small voltage on the metal equipment case and coax shield even of equipment that is operating properly. When multiple pieces of equipment are connected together, these leakage currents add together which might be sufficent to be felt if you touch the case and a ground.

If the equipment becomes defective, you want the excessive current to go directly to ground and not through you.

I have had some personal experience with this problem and made some tests to figure it out:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1255983/vo...#post_18772087

So with all this line of reasoning , then a radio that is placed on the patio/balcony for better reception but the speakers are inside the apartment should be grounded with number 10 ground wire to electric service ground. Or at the very least a power strip that has a high Joule rating.

And so every one that reads this knows , the power strip with the high Joule rating is also connected to the same electric outlets that are through out the building and those outlets are polarized , meaning that one side of the plug/outlet is connected to ground , and that is the same way the power strip with a high joule rating is grounded.

The coax from the antenna on the patio/balcony is connected to the Tv and being connected to the Tv the coax is also connected to the polarized electric plug of the Tv that is plugged into the polarized electric outlet and is there by connected to ground.

It is the reason for polarized electric service.

I wonder how close to zero the % is that a patio/balcony would be struck by lightning in a apartment complex.

Or even the ' electric charged air ' during a storm in a apartment complex , how close to zero is that.

This is a way of understanding the every day practicalness of this situation.

Not OMG !! we will be electrocuted , we are living in danger , we are living like the drunks on the freeway. OMG!!

These Obscure examples of electric issues of this switching power supply , and that power supply , and some other power supply , and that power transformer , and some other something , that have been presented here , are exactly that , Obscure examples. And Yes I can rattle on about all these issues and many more , However I Do Not rattle on and on and on .

In responds to these Obscure examples of electrical issues.

Is , UL Approved , Underwriters Laboratories Approved , that test electrical devices in all manner of ways for safety.

So whats the point??

The point is that people come here to tvfool to get Broadcast Tv Reception and I do the best job I can and even then I strive to do more then the best job I can to help these people free them selfs from $1,200.00 a year cable and satellite bills.

[GroundUrMast]

@tvsimpsons, you asked, "...do I still need to ground these outdoor antenna?" Simply stated, @rabbit73 and I both agree, 'it's a very good idea'.

I still have no idea what @teleview is trying to say... if it's, 'no, don't bother' or 'only if it's convenient', I think he's giving you potentially dangerous counsel.

[rabbit73]

teleview:

Since I was nearly killed three times by leakage current, I'm probably a little more aware of the potential hazards than most people. That is why I thought a leakage current tester was money well spent. I have made many leakage current tests on equipment; have you?

This is a way of understanding the every day practicalness of this situation.

Not OMG !! we will be electrocuted , we are living in danger , we are living like the drunks on the freeway. OMG!!

It didn't seem trivial to me when I was shocked while making tests of CECB sensitivity. After that happened, I was determined to find out why I was shocked, and made a lot of tests. The reading shown on the tester in the above photo is about 200 microamperes (0.2 mA); this is the actual leakage current that I felt when I was shocked. It is not strong enough to be lethal, but it certainly got my attention because it could indicate defective equipment.

Do you also think that NEC, UL, ANSI, and OSHA are being too careful about electrical safety? I use their regulations as my guide.

All AC operated equipment has leakage current. Just because you can't feel it, doesn't mean it isn't there. The important question is this: Is the current greater than or less than the safe limit?

So with all this line of reasoning , then a radio that is placed on the patio/balcony for better reception but the speakers are inside the apartment should be grounded with number 10 ground wire to electric service ground.

That is one way to ground equipment, but there are other ways; the grounding block and no. 10 copper wire is what is specified by NEC.

If you are standing on the ground outside and you touch a metal part on the radio case, your body will conduct any current from the radio to ground. A 2-wire polarized plug is no guarantee that the metal case is grounded. Equipment with a 3-wire plug that is connected to a 3-wire receptacle is grounded.

Or at the very least a power strip that has a high Joule rating.

The joule rating has to do with surge suppression, not grounding. The suggestion by GroundUrMast that a power strip (with the coax grounding feature) be used to ground the coax has to do with connecting the coax braid to the electrical system ground, assuming that the power strip is connected to a working 3-wire outlet.

And so every one that reads this knows , the power strip with the high Joule rating is also connected to the same electric outlets that are through out the building and those outlets are polarized , meaning that one side of the plug/outlet is connected to ground , and that is the same way the power strip with a high joule rating is grounded.

To repeat my point: If the power strip has a 3-wire plug that is connected to a working 3-wire outlet, then the receptacles on the power strip will also have the grounding pin of its 3-wire receptacles grounded. But, when you plug a 2-wire equipment plug into its receptacle, there is no grounding pin on the 2-wire plug. That means that the wider blade of the plug is connected to the white neutral wire, but there is no guarantee that the metal case of the equipment is also grounded because there is no third wire in the power cord to connect to the green wire.

The coax from the antenna on the patio/balcony is connected to the Tv and being connected to the Tv the coax is also connected to the polarized electric plug of the Tv that is plugged into the polarized electric outlet and is there by connected to ground.

NOT TRUE, teleview.

If you look at the pdf of Leakage Current Tests in my previous post, you will see that the 2 Apex CECBs, the 2 8-inch TVs, and the Sony TV all had leakage current even though their 2-wire polarized plugs were properly inserted into a 3-wire outlet strip that was connected to a working 3-wire receptacle. It was only when I grounded the common coax wire that the leakage current went to zero as measured by my Simpson 229 Leakage Current Tester.

Have you made any resistance measurements with an ohmmeter between the threaded collar of the antenna connector and the wide blade (neutral) of the plug on a 2-wire power cord? If what you say is true, then the resistance would be very low, almost zero ohms. But, it's not.

Attachment No. 1 shows my ohmmeter with the probes connected together for a short circuit. The OHMS scale reads zero ohms. Note that for the ohms scale ZERO is at the right end and open circuit is at the left end with an infinity symbol.

Attachment No. 2 shows my ohmmeter connected to my CECB No. 7, which is an Apex DT502. The black probe is connected to the threaded ant connector and the red probe is connected to the wide blade (neutral) of the 2-wire power plug. The meter reads an open circuit, which means that the coax IS NOT connected to ground through the power cord.

Q.E.D.(not a ham Q signal)

When you give antenna advice, you are very careful to double check your facts to give an accurate and thorough analysis of the reception problem; I'm surprised that you haven't done the same in this case.

It is the reason for polarized electric service.

The polarized plug makes sure that the neutral wire of the equipment is connected to the neutral wire of the electrical system, but it does not necessarily ground the metal case of the equipment or any of the RCA or type-F coax connectors because there is no third wire in the cord. If equipment with a 2-wire cord is connected to equipment with a grounded 3-wire cord, then the equipment with the 2-wire cord will be grounded through the shield of the connecting wires. But, before that connection, the equipment with the 2-wire cord is not grounded.

The neutral (white) and ground (green) are connected together at the electrical panel, but once they leave the panel they must not be connected together, and each serves only one purpose. The white is the return path for current from the load to the panel. The green is only for grounding (bonding).

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ic/hsehld.html

In spite of the fact that the 2-wire polarized plug does not ground the equipment, it has many safety advantages. In the case of a table lamp, it ensures that the shell of the socket is connected to the neutral wire and the switch is connected to the hot (black) wire. When a bulb burns out and you put a new one in the socket, most people don't unplug the lamp or even turn the switch off. The polarized plug makes sure that the threaded shell in the socket is not hot if you touch it when changing bulbs.

I wonder how close to zero the % is that a patio/balcony would be struck by lightning in a apartment complex. Or even the ' electric charged air ' during a storm in a apartment complex , how close to zero is that.

The point that I am trying to make is not about lightning or build-up of static charge on an antenna system, it is about electrical safety.

And then there is , UL Approved , Underwriters Laboratories Approved , that test electrical devices in all manner of ways for safety.

UL doesn't guarantee that equipment is properly grounded if it only has a 2-wire cord; a 3-wire cord is needed for that. There are, however, standards for leakage current.
http://www.mdsr.ecri.org/summary/det...px?doc_id=8285

I Do Not rattle on and on and on .

Yes, you do; you just did. And so do I, because I want to be sure that we are giving the best safety advice possible. It takes a lot of words to correct the misinformation in your last post and, to use your words, "so every one that reads this knows" the truth.

So whats the point??

The point is that people come here to tvfool to get Broadcast Tv Reception and I do the best job I can and even then I strive to do more then the best job I can to help these people free them selfs from $1,200.00 a year cable and satellite bills.

Your point is valid, and it is the primary reason why we are giving advice. But, it is also our responsibility to make sure that their installation meets the NEC requirements and is safe for them to use.

There is also an insurance consideration. If something bad happens with an outdoor antenna installation, you don't want to give an insurance company an excuse to deny a claim because of non-compliance with the code.

I would rather give too much safety advice that they can ignore if they wish, than to neglect to caution them about a potential safety hazard.

Wouldn't you?

With respect,
rabbit

These Obscure examples of electric issues.....that have been presented here , are exactly that , Obscure examples.

Leakage current is not an "Obscure" concept. It is an everyday safety issue for EVERYONE that uses AC operated equipment.

Here is another case of voltage on the coax jack:
Getting A/C voltage on converter box's antenna input !
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...postcount=1022

[GroundUrMast]

We have now officially highjacked the OP's thread.

Unless the OP wishes to discuss grounding further, consider the matter closed in this thread.

[westom]

If Allentown is like Bethlehem, then serious mountains and other reflective obstructions must be considered. Better details of the environment can mean a better answer.

A quick review of Philadelphia stations show two stupidly remained at low frequency VHF channels. Making your antenna problem more complicated. My guess is that Channel 6 is so low frequency as to probably be useless. Cannot believe some station management would have been that foolish.

The Truth is that the Biased and Flawed studies that were done several years ago , low band channels 2 thru 6 and high band channels 7 thru 13 are exactly that , Biased and Flawed Studies and information.
There are Tv stations that went to the UHF channels June 2009 at then applied to the FCC got approval to go back to the VHF low band channels 2 thru 6. They are not stupid , they are very smart , because Tv stations are finding out that with the correct transmission parameters VHF low band works very well for Tv transmission and reception. And the cost to run a Tv transmitter on VHF is thousands and thousands dollars Less per month then UHF. I have known this for a long time and I will no longer apologize for VHF transmission and reception.

[rabbit73]

westom:

The OP said:

I only need 4 channels to live..ABC, NBC, Fox and CBS.

At first glance it looks like he needs CH6 for ABC, but if you research W07DC-D on CH7, you will see that it carries ABC, which is why teleview and GroundUrMast said that he would need VHF-high and UHF antennas. Rabbitears.info indicates that it is active:
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...llsign=W07DC-D

You can research other VHF-low channel assignments here:
http://www.rabbitears.info/statistics.php

The noise level on VHF-low is usually higher than on VHF-high and UHF, esp. in urban areas, which requires a stronger signal to maintain a SNR greater than 16 dB. But, if the noise level is not excessive, then VHF-low transmission can be quite satisfactory and economical as teleview indicated.

[westom]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

The noise level on VHF-low is usually higher than on VHF-high and UHF, esp. in urban areas, which requires a stronger signal to maintain a SNR greater than 16 dB.

One antenna optimized for the many UHF Philadelphia stations can be less expensive and provide better reception. Then he must have a separate antenna for completely different frequencies for that one stupid station.

My experience building antennas is that UHF reception is easy. Antenna can be small and discrete. Adding VHF is more difficult and requires a significantly larger antenna. That violates the OP's requiirements such as not being obvious.

[tvsimpsons]

Guys thanks for all the info. I am going Clearstream antenna and surge protector for now.

Thank you all for your help and information.

Very good , please let know how the reception is , if requires improving of some channels , we can think of creative ways to improve reception.