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Old 6-Jan-2014, 5:01 PM   #1
mulliganman
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inconsistent reception of local Fox

I have posted here before when I was trying to get my antenna setup. My equipment has been installed and setup for some time now, but I am growing frustrated with my reception of the local Fox station. It is the only channel I consistently lose in snow, etc. and the signal strength has seemed to drop over time since the original setup (the high made it to low seventies upon setup). I have a two antenna setup. One antenna is the Clearstream 2V aimed toward Fordland and am using a 100 mile directional antenna aimed toward Bolivar with a preamp and distribution amp to try to pick up Fox. Here is my info: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5b940f11af42d0

Fox is broadcasting from KRBK and KWBM. Do I have any options or am I just out of luck?
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Old 6-Jan-2014, 5:42 PM   #2
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What's a "100 mile" antenna? What amplifiers?

You do know that Boliver is 30 miles NORTH of Springfield, don't you? What is the actual compass heading that the antenna is aimed at?
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Old 6-Jan-2014, 5:49 PM   #3
mulliganman
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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
What's a "100 mile" antenna? What amplifiers?

You do know that Bolivar is 30 miles NORTH of Springfield, don't you? What is the actual compass heading that the antenna is aimed at?
I am well aware of where Bolivar is. I don't have the name of the antenna or amp and was relaying what my installer simply told me. I am assuming the "100 mile" is simply the range of the antenna. I can attempt to contact him and see if he can give model numbers. As far as compass heading goes, I don't have one and don't believe he used one. He would aim and I checked signal strength as we tried different aims. The current aim direction is where we got the strongest signal using this method. He is the only installer I could find for my area so I was kind of stuck with what he came up with. If you have installers in your network for this area, I would be glad to listen if it is determined there are other solutions that could resolve my issue.

Last edited by mulliganman; 6-Jan-2014 at 5:57 PM.
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Old 6-Jan-2014, 6:33 PM   #4
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Well, is the antenna aimed towards Springfield or towards a point just east of Branson? That is, is it receiving one of KRBK's SFN transmitters or are you getting them via the sub-channel on KWBM?

Can you take a picture of the antenna so that it can be seen and identified?

Installers who focus on TV antennas are nearly extinct, there simply isn't enough business.
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Old 6-Jan-2014, 8:07 PM   #5
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Well, is the antenna aimed towards Springfield or towards a point just east of Branson? That is, is it receiving one of KRBK's SFN transmitters or are you getting them via the sub-channel on KWBM?

Can you take a picture of the antenna so that it can be seen and identified?

Installers who focus on TV antennas are nearly extinct, there simply isn't enough business.
The antenna is aimed towards Springfield/Bolivar. I've attached some pictures of the antenna so hopefully someone can identify the model. Anyway, here are the pics.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg photo(1).JPG (216.0 KB, 1356 views)
File Type: jpg photo(2).JPG (198.8 KB, 1273 views)
File Type: jpg photo(3).JPG (232.3 KB, 1246 views)
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Old 6-Jan-2014, 11:37 PM   #6
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I hate to say it, but if the guy sold that as a "100 mile antenna", he lives in an alternate universe where a mile is much, much shorter than ours. I don't recognize it off-hand and I cannot make out enough details to do so, but it would appear to be a small UHF/VHF compact combo.
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Old 6-Jan-2014, 11:54 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
I hate to say it, but if the guy sold that as a "100 mile antenna", he lives in an alternate universe where a mile is much, much shorter than ours. I don't recognize it off-hand and I cannot make out enough details to do so, but it would appear to be a small UHF/VHF compact combo.
Yep, that's what he said. Do you think given my report and the problems I described if I would be better off continuing going after the Springfield tower with a different antenna setup or re aim toward the KWBM tower with the same setup or a different antenna setup. Or is this is good as I can do with Fox? I have zero signal right now on 49.1 and that is without any snow/ice on or around that antenna yet all the channels I'm pulling in from the Clearstream V2 are as strong as ever.
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Old 8-Jan-2014, 1:48 AM   #8
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anyone with any thoughts?
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Old 8-Jan-2014, 11:19 AM   #9
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Well, that antenna, for starters, is an unknown. It obviously isn't what you believe it to be.

You say you have a preamp and a distribution amp. Which ones? How are all of the system components connected?
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Old 8-Jan-2014, 12:07 PM   #10
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Sure, the image is way to distant. Use your zoom on your camera to take a up close picture of the design.

Plus, the 100 mile claim is just unscrupulous advertising in these cases. Small amplified plastic antennas don't do "150 miles" either. It's garbage.

You want to talk what a 100 mile (VHF) antenna looks like? Go look at the old Channel Master Quantum 1160. It's almost 16 feet long. Most advertisers don't go beyond 70 miles with UHF claims because curvature of the earth combined with the shorter UHF wavelength makes those signals degrade faster than VHF counterparts.

As to your questions about FOX and specifically if you are out of luck. Not at all, according to your plot I would think your clearstream 2V ought to receive KRBK at a heading of magnetic 349. Where are you pointing the clearstream? Have you tested alternate locations on your roof? Sometimes moving a few inches to a few feet can cure a "dead spots."

It's too bad I didn't see your prior posts. I might of suggested an Antenna's Direct DB8 mounted on a rotor with an option for an Antennacraft Y5-7-13 if KOLR was unreliable.




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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
anyone with any thoughts?

Last edited by StephanieS; 8-Jan-2014 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 8-Jan-2014, 7:38 PM   #11
teleview
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+=>
-----

This information and questions are Straight to the Main Point.


http://forum.tvfool.com/search.php?searchid=275111.

--------------------------------------

I see the ClearStream 2 V , CS2V , CS2V UHF/VHF antenna , in the back ground above the roof in the pictures.

Is the , CS2V , receiving , KRBK UHF Channel 49 , FOX??

And what approximate direction is the , CS2V , antenna aimed??

Last edited by teleview; 9-Jan-2014 at 3:12 AM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 8-Jan-2014, 11:17 PM   #12
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephanieS View Post
Sure, the image is way to distant. Use your zoom on your camera to take a up close picture of the design.

Plus, the 100 mile claim is just unscrupulous advertising in these cases. Small amplified plastic antennas don't do "150 miles" either. It's garbage.

You want to talk what a 100 mile (VHF) antenna looks like? Go look at the old Channel Master Quantum 1160. It's almost 16 feet long. Most advertisers don't go beyond 70 miles with UHF claims because curvature of the earth combined with the shorter UHF wavelength makes those signals degrade faster than VHF counterparts.

As to your questions about FOX and specifically if you are out of luck. Not at all, according to your plot I would think your clearstream 2V ought to receive KRBK at a heading of magnetic 349. Where are you pointing the clearstream? Have you tested alternate locations on your roof? Sometimes moving a few inches to a few feet can cure a "dead spots."

It's too bad I didn't see your prior posts. I might of suggested an Antenna's Direct DB8 mounted on a rotor with an option for an Antennacraft Y5-7-13 if KOLR was unreliable.
Yeah I should have known that 100 mile claim was bogus. How I even ended up with that second antenna was because he couldn't find FOX KRBK with the Clearstream 2V but he didn't use a compass to help him aim either. That antenna is aimed toward Fordland, MO. He brought back the "100 mile antenna", some sort of preamp, and distribution amp to get FOX. I had better pictures with my regular camera but they couldn't be uploaded because the files were too large.

So are you saying you think I can pick up the Fox KRBK stronger by adjusting the aim of the Clearstream 2V to magnetic 349 degrees and still maintain strong signals for the other major local networks? If so is that with or without a preamp? I've emailed the installer to ask what the model numbers are on the second antenna, preamp, and distribution amp but haven't heard back. I wish I had additional options for installation/modifications if indeed it looks like I can strengthen the Fox signal somehow. I'm not "handy" enough to do the necessary adjustments myself I'm afraid.

Last edited by mulliganman; 8-Jan-2014 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 9-Jan-2014, 12:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
How I even ended up with that second antenna was because he couldn't find FOX KRBK with the Clearstream 2V but he didn't use a compass to help him aim either.
Did he do a channels scan after each adjustment as well? With green shaded signals and line of sight, you may get away with not pointing the antenna at the transmitter (known as off axis) and still see a signal reliably. With FOX KRBK, you have 2 edge conditions and about 32 db of strength. Still, not a terrible signal, but 2-edge conditions can cause problems. You are literally receiving signals through impediments. Thus, with these signals that are terrain blocked and weaker, you need to have your antenna facing them to have the best chance at reception. Or you may have odd multipath. You just have to get in there and test it.



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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
He brought back the "100 mile antenna", some sort of preamp, and distribution amp to get FOX. I had better pictures with my regular camera but they couldn't be uploaded because the files were too large.
I don't know your runs of coax, but with 65 db strong signals in the air I'm surprised you see anything at all if you are pointed at them. Preamps and strong green signals generally don't mix. It is recipe for overloading, meaning, your tuner is getting much signal and it overwhelms it and degrading reception. The weaker signals are normally the first ones to go. Perhaps take the preamp out of line and do a rescan. This includes the connection to the coax at the preamp and remove the power supply within your home. You want your antenna to have direct coax into the TV with nothing inbetween. You may notice Fox may appear. I know when I tried to run a preamp on my RCA ANT751 with 65 db signals in the air, a 17 db signal which I enjoy disappeared. I removed the preamp, it reappeared. Test that would be a suggestion. [/quote]

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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
So are you saying you think I can pick up the Fox KRBK stronger by adjusting the aim of the Clearstream 2V to magnetic 349 degrees and still maintain strong signals for the other major local networks?
I think the clearstream 2V is enough antenna to receive KRBK at magnetic 349, yes. Your station clusters are a 50 degrees magnetic and 349. You will lose signal of the one you aren't pointing at. You may still see them, but they will be weakened as they are off axis. You'll just have to try and experiment and find a sweetspot. If you can't, a two antenna option may be needed. One thing is certain though, you need your better antenna pointing at 349 for KRBK.

Do you have an A/B Switch? How are both antennas in line?


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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
If so is that with or without a preamp?
Disconnect preamp and run direct coax into the back of your TV on the clearstream 2V. My gut feeling unless you are running long runs of coax, a preamp is likely not needed by you. Orientate to magnetic 349 and run a channel scan. You'll know pretty fast.

You have a distribution amp? How many splits are you doing?

Generally when antennas are set up, you run one lead of coax into one TV. determine the antenna is aimed right and receiving the signal in question properly. Then you can start installing the system piece by piece so you know at what step a problem crops up.

Perhaps you need to find an installer that is a little more ethical. We can talk you through a set up, but someone has to be on the ground to test, re-test and work out the problems.

There is a subforum that points to installers. Perhaps you might find someone in HAM radio to help out?

Last edited by StephanieS; 9-Jan-2014 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 9-Jan-2014, 1:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephanieS View Post
Did he do a channels scan after each adjustment as well? With green shaded signals and line of sight, you may get away with not pointing the antenna at the transmitter (known as off axis) and still see a signal reliably. With FOX KRBK, you have 2 edge conditions and about 32 db of strength. Still, not a terrible signal, but 2-edge conditions can cause problems. You are literally receiving signals through impediments. Thus, with these signals that are terrain blocked and weaker, you need to have your antenna facing them to have the best chance at reception. Or you may have odd multipath. You just have to get in there and test it.

He did a couple of rescan's if I remember correctly after an adjustment.



I don't know your runs of coax, but with 65 db strong signals in the air I'm surprised you see anything at all if you are pointed at them. Preamps and strong green signals generally don't mix. It is recipe for overloading, meaning, your tuner is getting much signal and it overwhelms it and degrading reception. The weaker signals are normally the first ones to go. Perhaps take the preamp out of line and do a rescan. This includes the connection to the coax at the preamp and remove the power supply within your home. You want your antenna to have direct coax into the TV with nothing inbetween. You may notice Fox may appear. I know when I tried to run a preamp on my RCA ANT751 with 65 db signals in the air, a 17 db signal which I enjoy disappeared. I removed the preamp, it reappeared. Test that would be a suggestion.
He used the coax cable runs that were already in place from my satellite hookup. I'm not sure what you mean by the 65 db strong signals in the air.

I think the clearstream 2V is enough antenna to receive KRBK at magnetic 349, yes. Your station clusters are a 50 degrees magnetic and 349. You will lose signal of the one you aren't pointing at. You may still see them, but they will be weakened as they are off axis. You'll just have to try and experiment and find a sweetspot. If you can't, a two antenna option may be needed. One thing is certain though, you need your better antenna pointing at 349 for KRBK.

Do you have an A/B Switch? How are both antennas in line?

I don't know what an A/B Switch is.



Disconnect preamp and run direct coax into the back of your TV on the clearstream 2V. My gut feeling unless you are running long runs of coax, a preamp is likely not needed by you. Orientate to magnetic 349 and run a channel scan. You'll know pretty fast.

You have a distribution amp? How many splits are you doing?

Yes he put in a distribution amp. We are splitting the signal to three TV's

Generally when antennas are set up, you run one lead of coax into one TV. determine the antenna is aimed right and receiving the signal in question properly. Then you can start installing the system piece by piece so you know at what step a problem crops up.

He did check signal with one TV before moving on. The question is whether the Clearstream 2V was aimed at 349 compass while doing so.

Perhaps you need to find an installer that is a little more ethical. We can talk you through a set up, but someone has to be on the ground to test, re-test and work out the problems.

There is a subforum that points to installers. Perhaps you might find someone in HAM radio to help out?[/QUOTE]

I don't know what you mean by HAM radio but I would be interested in finding an additional installer who could recheck/readjust.

Last edited by mulliganman; 9-Jan-2014 at 1:15 AM.
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Old 9-Jan-2014, 8:01 AM   #15
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[B]He used the coax cable runs that were already in place from my satellite hookup. I'm not sure what you mean by the 65 db strong signals in the air.
Sixty-five db is a measure of signal strength at your location. In short, that's a very good signal. You'll see that corresponds to green on your radar plot. I mention this because with strong signals available to you and running a preamp with your antenna pointed at those strong signals, you may lessen reception because your TV receiver is overloaded. Think of being blinded by a extremely bright light. That's kind of the concept here. Details are lost due to the overwhelming brightness. Those details are weak signals in this case.

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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
I don't know what an A/B Switch is.
A/B Switch: http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-.../dp/B0002ZPIQ4 Allows you to have two leads of coax coming down off your roof and indoors, it is a switch those two coaxes terminate into, sending one coax forward and the ability to switch back and forth which antenna you want to watch.

Do you have the ability to watch both antennas at any time or do you just have one hooked up right now?

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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
Yes he put in a distribution amp. We are splitting the signal to three TV's
Ok. Very good. Generally, I avoid the mix of preamps followed distrubution amps. In your situation with quite a bit of good signal strength available a distribution amp may be appropriate doing 3 splits to compensate for coax losses, but I would remove the preamp absolutely.

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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
He did check signal with one TV before moving on. The question is whether the Clearstream 2V was aimed at 349 compass while doing so.
Yes. getting the clearstream 2v to magnetic 349 without the preamp and seeing that if you get FOX, then we can go forward in remapping your system a bit.

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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
I don't know what you mean by HAM radio but I would be interested in finding an additional installer who could recheck/readjust.
Ham radio is amateur radio. Not CB as in "breaker breaker", but the people doing shortwave and working with morse code who set up elaborate systems to communicate all over the world. I would actually prefer in your case someone with amateur radio experience help you because I'd be inclined to trust them more than some guy in a truck who says "buy this" and is more concerned about sales than setting your system up right - they would take the time to understand your setup and choose the right components. You wouldn't be sold a 2 foot plastic "100 mile antenna" for sure. They'd smell that B.S. a continent away.

Here's an example of an organization and people to contact: http://www.arrl.org/Groups/view/sout...club/type:club

good luck.

Last edited by StephanieS; 9-Jan-2014 at 8:08 AM.
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Old 28-Jan-2014, 12:04 AM   #16
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Ok I have some additional information about equipment used.

Here is the preamp being used: http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload...20_HDP-269.pdf

Here is the distribution amp being used: http://www.skywalker.com/Products/Sk..._SKY38323.aspx

I have been unable to attain the model for the short range directional antenna and have had no luck with HAM radio. I have been in discussions with Antenna Direct and they have suggested a couple of options.

Option # 1: Pairing the C2V with the Antennas Direct DB4E as a two antenna setup with the DB4 dedicated to KRBK Fox (possibly with a preamp; either the one used or another suggestion) and a distribution amp.

Option #2: Using the Antennas Direct DB8E as a single antenna solution. Not sure about a preamp but utilizing a distribution amp.

and VHF reflector: http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...-Assembly.html

I am running the signal to 3 TV's with a Holland splitter. ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CW come in without issue via the C2V.

Here are the locations of the Fox KRBK towers (the KWBM piggyback channel near Branson isn't shown): http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1495755

I would appreciate any thoughts about both, amps (including those being used), etc.

Last edited by mulliganman; 28-Jan-2014 at 1:10 AM.
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Old 28-Jan-2014, 3:31 PM   #17
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Try a UHF Yagi (42XG, 43Xg or 91X) aimed directly at Springfield and see if you can receive KBRK or at KWBM. Be prepared to try multiple locations and/or heights for the antenna. If sucessful, have the folks at www.tinlee.com make you a custom combiner for channel 49 (for KRBK) or channel 31 (for KWBM). Ask for a model AC-7 for the needed channel.

I would use the pre-amp only on the UHF Yagi, the signals from the C2V should not need a pre-amplifier. Install the AC7 so as to combine the amplified KRBK/KWBM signal with the non-amplifed signals from the C2V, then distribute the signals.

That Skywalker amp is a terrible excuse for an amp as it is very noisy. If you actually need a single-output distribution amplifier (you may not), then a CM-3410 or the PCT equivalent works well.
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Old 28-Jan-2014, 4:49 PM   #18
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Try a UHF Yagi (42XG, 43Xg or 91X) aimed directly at Springfield and see if you can receive KBRK or at KWBM. Be prepared to try multiple locations and/or heights for the antenna. If sucessful, have the folks at www.tinlee.com make you a custom combiner for channel 49 (for KRBK) or channel 31 (for KWBM). Ask for a model AC-7 for the needed channel.

I would use the pre-amp only on the UHF Yagi, the signals from the C2V should not need a pre-amplifier. Install the AC7 so as to combine the amplified KRBK/KWBM signal with the non-amplifed signals from the C2V, then distribute the signals.

That Skywalker amp is a terrible excuse for an amp as it is very noisy. If you actually need a single-output distribution amplifier (you may not), then a CM-3410 or the PCT equivalent works well.
ADTech thank you for responding and honest opinions. I just have a few follow up questions for you. First off, is this the correct amplifier you were referring to that I might need (splitting to 3 TV's): http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master...stribution+amp

Can a J-mount be used for the 42XG or 91X? If so, what size? If not, what am I looking at? I am supposed to have someone coming out on Thursday, so I am trying to find the equipment needed on amazon since as a prime member I can get it here in time.

If I can receive the signal with the 42XG or 91X, do you think the signal will be strong enough to watch before the custom combiner comes in?

Do you feel like the preamp being used is good for my situation or should I consider a replacement? Thanks again.
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Old 28-Jan-2014, 6:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
is this the correct amplifier
Yes. Check first to see if you actually need a distribution amplifier. Your TVFool plot says "No".

Quote:
Can a J-mount be used for the 42XG or 91X?
Yes. The antennas will mechanically fit on either our 30 or 40" J-mounts or any other mount 2" or less in diameter Keep in mind that additional antenna height may be needed (see above) and the J-mounts should not be extended without reinforcement or guys. Have the installer test reception of KRBK first using a temporary mounting facility before drilling any holes.

Quote:
If I can receive the signal with the 42XG or 91X, do you think the signal will be strong enough to watch before the custom combiner comes in?
Probably, if you can get the signal to come in at all. Your location is not simple.

Quote:
Do you feel like the preamp being used is good for my situation or should I consider a replacement?
It's probably okay. I'm not a fan of that pre-amp due to several reasons but it works well enough for most folks.

I would make the antenna/pre-amp work first, then consider the purchase of the AC-7 combiner. Otherwise, you'll drop $150 or so on something you can't return and still cannot use.

Your signals from Fordland, might, in fact be strong enough to come in on the 91XG anyway. Test it before committing to the combining exercise.
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Last edited by ADTech; 28-Jan-2014 at 6:20 PM.
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Old 29-Jan-2014, 1:24 AM   #20
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Got both the 42XG and 91XG on order for delivery tomorrow. I'm not sure yet which to try.

Also have the Channel Master distribution amp on the way in case it is needed (although I'm not sure how to know precisely if it is needed).

I know you said the Wineguard HDP269 preamp is probably okay, but if you had another suggestion what would it be?

I will report back my results. Thanks again ADTech for the input and suggestions.
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