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Old 30-Aug-2012, 7:36 AM   #1
StephanieS
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Which to go after KUID or K23HT-D?

Hello Everyone,

I'm moving soon to start graduate school in Cheney, WA. I adore the Idaho PBS and want to receive it OTA. I have two choices, KUID out of Moscow, ID which is full power and about 17db on the signal strength, but is coming at me through 2 edges. I also have K23HT-D, a translator for Idaho's PBS in Saint Maries, ID. I have line of sight to K23HT-D, but it's extremely low power.

Here's my signal map for my location:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e7796c1ed74595

I know VHF punches out better long distances to due its longer wavelength, hitting 2 edges though is hard on the signal. Meanwhile a flea powered UHF translator that I'm well outside of the contour might be iffy.

The antenna setup is going on the roof with two dedicated antennas, one to receiving the Idaho PBS and the other, an RCA ANT751 pointed to Tower Mountain in Spokane.

Which Idaho PBS signal is the one with a better likelihood of steady reception?

Thanks.
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Old 30-Aug-2012, 4:05 PM   #2
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Tv Reception.

I expect that aiming the ANT751 antenna at about 65 degree magnetic compass direction ,

Will receive , K23HT-D REAL Digital UHF channel 23 , virtual number (12.1) PBS and the other Digital Tv stations/channels to the , north east , east , east south.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.
_______________________________________

There is no requirement to receive , KWSU-TV channel 10 PBS because it is also transmitted , KWSU-TV channel 17 at 50 degree magnetic compass direction.

No requirement to receive , KUID-DT channel 12 PBS.

And no requirement to receive , KLEW-TV channel 22 , it is far to weak and will not be received any way.
_______________________________________

As always , trees and tree leaves do a real fine job of reducing or blocking Tv reception and so do buildings and other obstructions.

It is best to locate the antenna at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions in the directions of reception.

Last edited by GroundUrMast; 20-Mar-2013 at 9:52 AM. Reason: Deleting 'boiler plate' spam style content
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Old 30-Aug-2012, 4:20 PM   #3
GroundUrMast
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Both the primary and translator signals, real CH-12 & CH-23, have adjacent channel interference to contend with. I expect that issue will be more significant than the signal strength and edge path issues.

Try the ANT-751 as @teleview has suggested... You'll either be finished, with KUID keeping you company during cram sessions... Or you'll have real world data on which of the two real channels are more reliable, hence, which to pursue more aggressively.

FWIW: I expect the signal on real CH-12 will be easier to receive. An Antennacraft Y10713 aimed at real CH-12 will put the signal from real CH-13 on the rear quarter of the Y10713, one of it's least sensitive azimuths. The signal on real CH-24 is going to be quite a challenge to null out given that it's much closer in azimuth.

Last edited by GroundUrMast; 30-Aug-2012 at 8:19 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 31-Aug-2012, 9:24 AM   #4
StephanieS
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Thank you Teleview and GroundUrMast,

I'll go with the ANT751 for starters and give that a try. Luckily, at my address immediately south and east are free of trees with a clear view of the hills in the distance over the border into Idaho. Northeast is a different matter. Plenty of trees surround the front of the property and block the view.

If I have to put up a VHF beam, this may be the only time someone might be thankful for trees blocking a signal on this forum, lol. The aforementioned trees might help me out by knocking down KXLY's VHF 13 adjacent signal.

The apartment I'm renting comes with cable, but, it's standard definition AND they don't carry the Idaho PBS. Go figure!

Just a curious question - if the ANT751 were pointed right at KUID, is the antenna's VHF performance strong enough perhaps to grab it? I ask because I've read people giving glowing reviews of the 751 for 55 miles on VHF.

Thanks again!
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Old 31-Aug-2012, 5:02 PM   #5
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The predicted NM in the air for KUID is +17.3 dB. The ANT-751 has a few dB gain more than a dipole. So it's reasonable to expect to see the signal. Just how reliable the signal will be depends on factors that TV Fool has no way to predict, such as multipath, nearby obstructions, etc.
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Old 18-Sep-2012, 10:23 PM   #6
StephanieS
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Update

Just put the ANT751 on a mast on the deck and pointed it roughly at 60-70 degrees.

Whala! K23HT-D was there solid and locked. That was shooting through an edge of a tree too. When the antenna goes up on the roof, it'll clear the tree.

I have a clear shot SE to S so I pointed the ANT751 at KUID just for giggles. Nothing. My TV blew right past real RF 12 channel while scanning (normally for weak channels it still stops even though it may not register them).

Thanks for the advice! Looks like for K23HT-D will be the winner!
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Old 18-Sep-2012, 10:34 PM   #7
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Thank you StephanieS for the report.

You are doing real fine.

Last edited by teleview; 16-Nov-2013 at 5:16 AM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 20-Mar-2013, 8:03 AM   #8
StephanieS
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Update

I thought I'd share an update with you regarding reception. During this winter, I have had repeated problems with k23ht-d. Pixellating and disappearing completely. Sunday it was gone most of the day. I understand icing on broadcast antennas so I assumed that was the case as it's at 5000' and winter weather can still come and go into March.

With K23HT-D out, I emailed the engineering department at Idaho Public Television to report it. "Amazed" is the word a couple of the engineers used in emails back and forth at my reception. The Boise staff tried to advise me to try KUID or KCDT. An engineer in Moscow, ID which oversees K23HT-D told the staff in Boise that KUID and KCDT aren't possible for me. Well, KUID *IS* technically possible, but it'll require reworking, luck and setup space I don't have.

K23HT-D even at 500' above ground at my location it's signal never breaks 18 db on strength. It holds 17 db until about 5' above ground.

Moral of the story: the field engineer said they've had antenna icing problems and snow is deep up there so getting to do a good check of equipment is out until April. I suppose it's springs job to melt the antenna ice.

Its nice IPTV had 10 people or so in the discussion all marvelling a 200 watt translator is stable 55 miles out.

On a side note, I've ordered a 10 db preamp. This is my updated data: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1dda088622b595. (Antenna is at 27/28') Would I be able to pull KLEW's RF 22 translator up to recievable levels?

Regards,

Last edited by StephanieS; 20-Mar-2013 at 8:06 AM.
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Old 20-Mar-2013, 10:19 AM   #9
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Reliable reception starts with the antenna and it's location. An antenna with greater gain would be my first choice when chasing weak signals.

Amplifiers can not / do not 'pull' signal from the antenna, coax or air... They can only 'push' the signal through the loss in cable and splitters connected to the output and if the tuner has a poor noise figure, overcome some of that impairment. How much coax and, what type and how many splitters are you using?

What make and model amplifier do you have on order?

If I were specifically pursuing the KLEW signal on real CH-22 as shown on your TVFR, It would not be overkill to consider large antennas such as the Antennas Direc 91XG, Winegard HD9095, or similar product from other vendors. I might opt to use a Winegard HD7698P aimed at KLEW (131 compass) with the expectation of seeing the signals on real channels 10, 12, 22 & 24.

The challenge would be, "How to make a directional like that, also serve the local signals from the NE". You may find you need to use two antennas. The larger one, on a rotator. There are other options... http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2882

Last edited by GroundUrMast; 20-Mar-2013 at 10:23 AM. Reason: A couple more questions
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Old 20-Mar-2013, 5:47 PM   #10
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Try aim the ANT751 at 83 degree magnetic compass direction , at K23HT-D REAL UHF Digital Channel 23 , virtual number (x) PBS.

K23HT-D is a repeater Tv station for KUID-DT REAL VHF channel number 12 , virtual number (35.1) Idaho , PBS.


KUID is further away and has 2 edge path obstructions = hills/mountains.

More on KUID later.

________________________

Looking at Pending Applications Included tvfool radar report and channel list , and , doing research using the google search box I found that ,

(( in the google search box , type in variations of the Tv station call sign , example , k23ht , k23ht tv , k23ht-d , k23ht-d 23 , and so forth.
The web sites that google will find that have the most Practical and Useful information that is Easy To Use , are , wikipedia and rabbitears.info.))

KXLY-DT channel 13 ABC and Me-TV.

KXLY channel 22 ABC and Me-TV.

KXMN-LD channel 17 Me-Tv.

So no requirement to receive , KXLY-DT channel 13.
_______________

KDYS-LP channel 32 , Daystar religion. Weak signal strength.

KQUP channel 24 , Daystar religion. Strong signal strength.

So no requirement to receive KDYS channel 32.

_______________

KWSU-TV channel 10 PBS.

KWSU-TV channel 17 , same PBS.

So no requirement to receive KWSU channel 10.

_______________

KLEW-TV channel 22 , is Very Weak Signal Strength.

And will require a Large UHF antenna to receive.

More on that later.

_______________

At this point , this eliminates the 2 extremes of directions of the , North East Digital Tv stations channels and South East Digital TV stations channels.

And the VHF Digital Tv stations channels with exception of , KSPS-TV channel 7 , Spokane PBS. KSPS is strong signal strength at your location.
__

This all being the situation , aim the ANT751 at about 83 degree magnetic compass direction , K23HT-D channel 23 PBS.

_______________

And now alternatives.

A better antenna for reception of the UHF Digital TV stations/channels and the 1 VHF Digital Tv station/channel KSPS-TV 7 PBS.

Is a Channel Master CM4228HD antenna , the CM4228HD is a High Gain UHF antenna and does a fair to good job of receiving the VHF high band channels of 7 thru 13.

Aim the CM4228HD at about 83 degree magnetic compass direction.
___

You can use the CM4228HD to Test reception of KLEW-TV channel 22 CBS , by aiming the CM4228HD at about 131 degree magnetic compass direction and at the same time will be Testing the reception of KUID-DT channel 12 PBS 138 degree magnetic compass direction.

__________________________________________________________

The ANT751 antenna can Test reception of KUID-DT channel 12 , PBS. 138 degree magnetic compass direction.

The ANT751 antenna can Test reception of KLEW-TV channel 22 , CBS. 131 degree magnetic compass direction.

____

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

As always , the starting antenna aim direction is the --> starting antenna aim direction.

The antenna aim direction can be adjusted for best reception.

Most Digital Tv's have a signal strength meter and some Digital Tv's also have a signal quality meter.

______________________________________________________

What is the make and model number of the 10 dB amplifier??

______________________________________________________

Also , Weather->Water , can get into the matching transformer that connects the ANT751 antenna to the coax.

Replace the matching transformer (balun) with a Channel Master CM-94444 matching transformer.

Also Water can get into the connections and coax that are outside , recommend replace outside coax with the coax that has the Compression type connectors on the ends of the coax , not the Old crimp type connectors on the ends of the coax.

And replace other connectors that are exposed to Weather->Water.

To make double sure that water does not get into the matching transformer and coax connection's , outside connectors , outside coax.

Wrap the ->Complete<- matching transformer the wires end , the body of the matching transformer the coax connector end and the coax , with , Coax Seal , http://www.coaxseal.com.

Wrap other outside connections etc. with coax seal.

___________________________________________________________


As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , do a good job of , multipath/reflecting , absorbing , blocking , Digital Tv reception and so do buildings and other obstructions including your own roof and building.

It is best to install or test antenna at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the directions of reception including your own roof and building.

_____________

Digital Broadcast Tv Tuners can develop - Digital Glitches - that are not cleared out with simple channel scans.

Do a Double Rescan.

http://www.dtv.gov/rescan.html.

Last edited by teleview; 21-Mar-2013 at 6:44 PM.
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Old 12-Aug-2013, 8:39 AM   #11
StephanieS
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Apologies, I got so busy, I completely spaced on following up on this thread.

As to the amplifier, its an RCA 10db VH100R. Pretty useless actually for my antenna. When I put it in line, I lost K23HT-D. So, I went back to just the straight coax with nothing in line from antenna to TV.

The coax is: Philips RG6 in a 100' run.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Philips-10...ectors/7811235

I'm still flirting with the idea of chasing KLEW on channel RF 22. Would a two antenna arrangement, say an Antennas Direct 43XG pointed right at KLEW at 146 degrees (I don't care about RF 12, K23HT-D serves me fine) coupled together by a Winegard CC-7870 Antenna Coupler work? The second antenna, the RCA ANT751 would remain pointed at 81 degrees to focus on local signals and K23HT-D. The ANT751 receives the local signals adequately.

I would also add 5' to the antennas bring them to 29' which, is LOS to KLEW's RF 22 signal.

I see the 7870 zaps some loss. Would 3db of loss be problematic on the 43XG or would I still have plenty of gain to spare for KLEW? The same would be said for K23HT-D at 17db, would 3 db of loss and a 100' coax run reduce a signal now which is stable?

Regards, and thanks.

PS. Updated TV Fool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46aef60f2761ed

Last edited by StephanieS; 12-Aug-2013 at 8:44 AM. Reason: updated TV Fool.
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Old 12-Aug-2013, 9:11 AM   #12
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PPS: K40EE, which is the analog translator to KXLY at 156 degrees, I do see it off the side. Picture locks and it flickers in and out of color with occasional audio. Perhaps Teleview's suggestion is the best course, pointing right at KLEW and seeing if the ANT751 by itself pulls it in. I don't want to do a rotor solution. If I went dedicated antenna for KLEW, I'd need to a coupler. It's just a question now if the db loss will deal break it... I'd hate to put a preamp in to overload. Although, I did see, Radio Shack sells a preamp attenuator that allows you to dial it down to a sweet spot if you are in an overload situation.
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Old 13-Aug-2013, 11:34 PM   #13
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You are having fun with testing reception.

Yes you can Test reception using the Winegard CC7870 transformer type isolation coupler.

Yes you can Test reception with a Winrgard , LNA-200 'Boost' XT amplifier.

It is a Test , to learn and have fun.

Last edited by teleview; 23-Aug-2013 at 8:46 PM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 23-Aug-2013, 1:08 AM   #14
StephanieS
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91XG Goes up tomorrow with the intention to test pointed at 146 degrees!

We'll see what works with preamps, or not. Being 15 miles and LOS to many stronger signals concerns me. I have an Eagle Aspen 25 db line amp to test as well once I've split into two leads inside.


Last edited by StephanieS; 23-Aug-2013 at 1:10 AM.
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Old 24-Aug-2013, 1:55 AM   #15
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Update KLEW RF 22

Well, the 91XG is airborne. I need to fiddle with the aiming a bit more. KLEW on RF 22 has not locked. I do see flashing one bar regularly as well as the signal meter bounces between 0 and 27 (high side of weak). I don't have a preamp.

I have put the Weingard 7870 combiner in and the 91XG is now working in concert with the ANT751. The ANT751 is pointed at 83 degrees and is receiving all signals it did previously. K23HT-D continues to be received.

I also have a 10 db line amp in place right before where the coax splits to go to each TV.

I'll attempt to aim the antenna again tomorrow. Would a preamp be something that *might* work on the 91XG mounted on the mast to pull KLEW's signal up?

Cheers.

Last edited by StephanieS; 24-Aug-2013 at 2:10 AM.
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Old 24-Aug-2013, 3:45 AM   #16
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A good preamp may help, especially if you have a long run of coax between the antenna and the tuner. The RCA TVPRAMP1R has been impressively reviewed: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13530

The Winegard LNA-200 is also worth considering. (edit - 7/2014: The LNA-200 lacks adequate internal shielding. As a result it is sustainable to signal intrusion, a form of interference. I can no longer recommend it.)

The goal of any amplifier is to overcome loss in cable and splitters connected on the output side of the amplifier... While adding as little additional noise as possible.
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If the well is dry and you don't see rain on the horizon, you'll need to dig the hole deeper. (If the antenna can't get the job done, an amp won't fix it.)

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Last edited by GroundUrMast; 10-Jul-2014 at 6:57 PM. Reason: No longer recommend the LNA-200
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Old 25-Aug-2013, 4:53 AM   #17
StephanieS
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Success! 56 miles and 7.6 db of field strength on KLEW RF 22 which, looking at their FCC info, is almost directional with the main thrust of the signal being thrown south into Moscow, ID and Pullman, WA.

From my 32" Samsung internal tuner:


From my Tivax DTV Government Special Tuner patched into my 32" Samsung:





The combiner didn't work. If I combined it things via the 7870, it killed KLEW. No nothing I did fixed it. In the end, I went and picked up another 100' drop of RG6 and now utilize an Antenna switch in house with a dedicated run for each antenna. The 91XG has a 10 db line amp on it before it hits the splitter in the house. I also ordered the RCA mast preamp. However, that may not be needed.

In short, it's working!

Last edited by StephanieS; 25-Aug-2013 at 5:02 AM. Reason: grammar whoopsie.
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Old 26-Aug-2013, 2:17 AM   #18
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Further update...

The daytime isn't kind to KLEW. Reception is rock solid stable in the evening hours, morning and mid-morning. Starting about 9:00am, pixellation begins to set in. Signal quality degrades steadily until 1:00 - 2:00pm where it goes below reception threshold. Picture and audio may temporarily flash, however watchable is gone. About 6:00pm, the signal begun to return. At 7:00pm it begun to stabilize. As of now it is mostly stable with occasional breakups.

We'll see what the RCA preamp does for daytime reception.

On a side note, I also see KUID RF 12 and KWSU RF 10 during the evening. They are the first go to though. KLEW then goes.

K40EE, being analog degrades somewhat during the above mentioned times, but remains watchable.

On a side note, I'm glad I was aiming the 91XG in the early evening. Aiming it at 3:00pm wouldn't have yielded KLEW if the above pattern was in effect.

Speaking of the 91XG, that thing is precise. I don't have much leeway with KLEW. I can pretty much point it wherever and the local signals come in off the side or the back no problem. With KLEW I moved it a half inch and poof, KLEW disappeared.

Last edited by StephanieS; 26-Aug-2013 at 2:20 AM.
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Old 2-Sep-2013, 9:31 PM   #19
StephanieS
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Last update (for a little while).

Picture of setup:


I should've dressed the wires a bit more. I'll do that when I put the preamp on the ANT751.

KLEW varies tremendously. This morning in overcast skies the Tivax receiver had 4 bars and a signal of 79 (middle of good). This afternoon with the clouds breaking up, it's settled back down to 40 (lower side of good) and two bars. Appears I may be getting some bounce off the clouds.

KLEW also pixellates once in awhile during the day, then comes right back. The chief Engineer of KLEW sent me a curvature of the earth corrected plot from me to the transmission site. According to that, I am not line of site to KLEW. KLEW's engineer also made reference to that I am likely the only person in my city that receives KLEW. Probably so. Most people are pointing at the Spokane sticks 15 miles away.

K40EE for an analog looks great. Occasionally, the ANT751 can see it in its current location. However, it is hit and miss with being unwatchable. Only with the 91XG does it come into full color and minimal static.

Most locals do just fine off the side of the 91XG. They are attenuated a bit with 3 bars common and a signal strength of 50-70. KSKN RF 36 suffers the most with occasional drop outs. For them, I just switch over to the ANT751 if I want to watch the locals at full strength. All locals are 100% with the exception of KXLY RF 13 and RF9 as well as K23HT-D on the smaller antenna. Both of those off the ANT751 are in the mid 40s and 2 - 3 bars. I plan to purchase another RCA pre-amp and put it on the ANT751.

That's all for now!

Last edited by StephanieS; 2-Sep-2013 at 9:34 PM.
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Old 15-Nov-2013, 3:35 PM   #20
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Update

Since this has been an ongoing learning experience, I thought I'd share the latest with my setup.

In September, I decided that I would try two things. The first, remove the 12' jumper from the 91xg to the preamp and replace it with a 6' jumper.

Second, I would put an RCA preamp on the ANT751.

The results surprised me. With the 6' jumper in place on the 91xg, KLEW RF 22 lost substantial signal. It was so bad, the second TV couldn't lock on it 95% of the time. As where with the 12' jumper it was 98% solid. The first TV was struggling to get program details from the menu, it would often say "dtv program" but was more stable with KLEW than the second TV. Wednesday I removed the 6' jumper from the antenna to the preamp and replaced it with the 12' jumper. I also replaced the original 100' drop of RG-6 with fresh 100' drop of RG-6 from Solid Signal. KLEW is back rock solid with a gain of perhaps 15% signal. Program data on the menu is also fully detailed with what programming is on.

Interesting that the length of coax affected KLEW's reception so much. For the record, I also tried other 6' jumpers. Same result. Thus, I am comfortable saying the jumper wasn't bad that was in service.

Putting an RCA Preamp on the ANT751 backfired. As of now, the ANT751 (and the 91xg) is pushing signal down 150' of coax and passing through an A/B switch (91XG and ANT751 have separate leads, thus the A/B switch) and then a coax splitter. I wanted to see if I could push a little more signal down the coax on the little antenna. The results were K23HT-D vanished. Likely overloading is my first thought. KQUP RF 24 which I have LOS, hits me with a signal strength of 95 or better without the preamp on the ANT751.

As such, I removed the RCA preamp and now the ANT751 just puts its signal down the coax with no preamp. It still does good. K23HT-D locks in again without breakup, but is down in the low to mid 40s with its "signal strength" on the second TV. The 91xg by comparison, K23HT-D is in the mid 50s on "signal strength" on the same TV.

Other random observations: returning the 91xg to the 12' jumper yielded a subtle change from the last time it had the 12' jumper in place. KXLY RF 13 and it's repeater, KXMN RF 9 are flakey while KSKN RF 22 is solid. Last time, the result was flipped. I did do a slight re-aiming to point dead on at KLEW. I'm surprised the 91XG even grabs any VHF, or the signals off the side. However, my thought is I see them because the signals are so strong - especially the UHF stuff @ 15 miles.

The set up is ready to ride into winter and we'll see how it does. If I have switch to the ANT751 to watch KXLY, that's no biggie. That's why I left that antenna in service. It's job is the local VHF/UHF stuff. The 91XG's job is KLEW.

I've wanted to test the 91xg on KCDT (-4.3db) and K49JD-D (-6 db). Too bad I really can't. If I were to try, I'd be putting the yagi not far off of main clusters of signals serving Spokane. All that gain on signals hitting me at 65 db? Probably not the best idea. Pretty good recipe for overload...

SS
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