Basic Channels in Northern Wisconsin

[TheNuke]

Hi Everyone,

I've recently discovered this forum after searching for antenna options on behalf of my father in-law. He recently purchased a home in Northern Wisconsin and I could use a little help getting him the right antenna for his situation. The property is surrounded with tall pines and as you can see from the tvfool report here, is quite a distance from local towers. (44-52 miles)

The goal is to make sure he has coverage for all of the major stations (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, and PBS) year-round without having to constantly adjust the dish.

His first attempt at picking up channels was by using this antenna he picked up locally, and mounting it temporarily to the top of an extension ladder, just to see if he'd have any luck. I'll double-check with him, but I believe that little antenna was able to pick up ABC and CBS. Last weekend it pulled in FOX as well, but there is usually some artifacting/macroblocking.

Top priority is obviously tuning the channels, but if he can get by with a smaller, less obvious antenna, he'd prefer that. We all like the size/looks of the Antennas Direct C2-V-CJM, so that would be our first choice. I didn't find much else in that form factor, so then we were into the Winegard HD7697P, but I'd really appreciate some feedback from people that have more experience than I do. Also, I'm not sure if others have mounted antennas like this to trees, instead of the roof, but I'd be interested if anyone has suggestions for mounting an antenna off a tree.

Again, any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance for taking the time.

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WGBA-DT , Real UHF channel 41 (1-2) , virtual number (26.1-2) , NBC and CW is Very Weak Signal Strength at 1.7 NM(dB) and has 2 Edge Path=Hills/Mountains Obstructions.

WPNE-TV , Real UHF channel 42 (1-2-3) , virtual number(x) , PBS , is Very Weak Signal Strength at 7.6 NM(dB) and has 2 Edge Path= Hills/Mountains Obstructions

To see if signals strengths and reception conditions improve with higher antenna height.

Do not delete the first tvfool report at 25 feet antenna height.

Please make and post 2 more tvfool reception reports at 40 and 60 feet antenna height.

[tonyp063]

Your going to need hi-vhf & uhf capabilities, no matter which direction you're aiming, if your goal is to get all the major networks. I don't think the c2-v is going to give you enough gain, especially if trees are in the equation.

If it were me, I'd go with the HD7697P aimed at 140 degrees to start.

A premium solution would be an AntennasDirect DB8e & and Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 aimed the same direction.
It wouldn't be overkill.

[StephanieS]

Hello Nuke,

I'd be curious what the TVfool plot looks like at 50'.

As it stands right now, "less obvious" won't equal the reception your father-in-law is wanting. Smaller antennas like the RCA ANT751 or the Antennacraft HBU11 and even that little flat panel antenna perform best in suburban areas where you have line of sight to the transmitters. Once you start getting out "in the wild" with weaker signals that are terrain obstructed (1 and 2-edge) those type of antennas won't deliver the results you want.

The TVfool plot you provided us at 25' is one that requires a strong antenna that is capable of working with weak to very weak signals. This means a larger traditional aerial mounted outside that will probably make your father-in-law cringe. For this plot, there is no other option. FOX and PBS likely join ABC and CBS if orientated at magnetic heading 142 with a large aerial. NBC is a going to be a wildcard. As it stands it doesn't look good. You'll just have to get something in the air and see.

I might even purchase an Antennacraft 10G212 preamp in this situation depending on how long your coax run is. This preamp allows you to adjust your gain if needed.

Tonyp063 gives you a nice option in the Winegard HD7697P. I would likely choose the same in a single antenna application. For size reference, this a 10 to 11' long antenna.

That's what in my view, what it'll take for the reception your father-in-law seeks.

Cheers.

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40 and 60 feet help a little , however installing the antenna above roof clear of obstructions will most likely get the Tv stations and can always go higher if required.

For reception of the South East Group of Digital Broadcast Tv Stations/Channels.

WBAY-DT , Real UHF band channel 23 , virtual number (2.1) , ABC , LWN Live Well Network.

WLUK-TV , Real VHF high band channel 11 , virtual number(x) , FOX.

WPNE-TV , Real UHF band channel 42 , virtual number(x) , PBS.

WFRV-DT , Real UHF band channel 39 , virtual number (5.1) , CBS.

WCWF , Real UHF band channel 21 , virtual number (14.1) , The CW.

WGBA-DT , Real UHF band channel 41 , virtual number (26.1) , NBC and Me-Tv.

I recommend install a , http://www.antennacraft.net.

HBU44 antenna above the roof in such a manner that the roof and building are not , obstructing , impeding , blocking , reception in the direction of , South East.

Aim the HBU44 antenna at about 143 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna.

Can also buy the , HBU44 antenna at , http://www.amazon.com.

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Install a , http://www.antennacraft.net.

10G201 preamplifier.

Can also buy the 10G201 preamp at http://www.amazon.com

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For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

Buy the , HFS-2D and HFS-3D , splitters at , http://www.amazon.com , or , http://www.hollandelectronics.com.

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Here are some above the roof antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html.
Instal the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224).

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at , http://www.ronard.com , or , http://www.amazon.com.

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Home Depot has , 10 foot 6 inch lengths of , TOP RAIL , chain link fence , PIPE , that makes good antenna mast pipe and is low dollars about 10 dollars.

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The HBU44 antenna can also aimed at the , West North West Group of Digital Broadcast Tv Stations/Channels , to Test reception.

Aim the HBU44 antenna at about 289 degree magnetic compass direction.

And Rescan for Digital Broadcast Tv Stations/Channels.

W26EE-D , Real UHF band channel 26 , virtual number (x) , Religion.

WSAW-TV , Real VHF high band channel 7 , virtual number (7.1) , CBS and MyNetwork.

WAOW , Real VHF high band channel 9 , virtual number (x) , ABC and The CW and This Tv.

WHRM-DT , Real UHF band channel 24 , virtual number (20.1) , PBS.

WFXS-DT , Real UHF band channel 31 , virtual number (55.1) , FOX and Me-Tv and RTV Retro Tv Network.

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[TheNuke]

Thanks to all three of you for the responses, I appreciate it.

Tele:
Here are the two reports from 40 and 60 feet.

Tony:
Thanks for detailing both suggestions. It looks like there is a $50-100 difference between the two options and a difference in form factor as well. Based on the new reports do you lean one way or the other? Again, function is the priority over form and cost. Within reason of course.

Stephanie:
Thank you for the suggestion of adding a pre-amp. We are looking into possibly mounting the antenna to the roof of the detached garage. That might give us the height we are looking for, but requires a longer coax run. I'd estimate the run at 75-100 feet. There is currently only one TV, but will likely be two in the future. Without doing any research, it sounds like a pre-amp would be a good investment based on that.

[tonyp063]

Based on published specifications from the manufacturers.
The 2 antenna solution will give roughly the same gain (within roughly 1 db) on the hi-vhf frequencies. About 10-11dbs for either the 7697 or the 10-7-13 on those frequencies.

The DB8, however, gives you *significantly* more gain on uhf, especially on the higher end, where your weaker signals are (real 39 & 41 for cbs & fox)
17db gain for the DB8e & 11 db for the 7697.
Don't forget that a 3Db difference is roughly twice the strength. Or 1/2 the strength, depending on which way you look at it.
And that could make all the difference in reception. especially with trees.

The 2 antenna solution will allow you to tweak aiming towards Green Bay for either band.
Couple them with an rca TVPRAMP1R, which has separate inputs for vhf & uhf, low noise & an attractive price.

I agree. If you are pushing signal through 100ft of coax, you'll probably need a pre=amp.


Links to specs.

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD7697P.pdf

https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...s/DB8E-TDS.pdf

http://www.antennacraft.com/pdfs/Y10-7-13.pdf

[TheNuke]

Hi All, sorry for the delay in responding, I was away for a week.

While I was gone my father-in-law purchased the 7697 and installed it at about 20' on the Southeast side of the house to avoid obstruction from his roofline. Right now he his able to pull in all of the desired channels except CBS on 75' of coax with no preamp. CBS comes in on occasion, so we're going to add a preamp recommended here as a next step and continue to tune the direction of the antenna, as the CBS station sits just a little further South than the other channels. I'm using the Interactive TV Coverage Browser right now with the "show lines pointing to each transmitter" box checked to double check our aim. I'll post back with more results as we continue to work on it!

Thanks for all the help.

EDIT: Is there any reason not to choose the 10G202 over the 10G201? It looks like they are within $4 of each other and the 10G202 looks like it has better specs.

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Preamps are mostly for providing enough signal for Long runs of coax and multipul splitter/splits.

You do not have Long runs of coax and multipul spliter/splits.

Use the , 10G201 preamp.

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Yes I have responded to the the 40 and 60 feet antenna heights above ground , my response has appeared before the 40 and 60 foot links.

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The Tv stations of the other direction can be received.

Turn the Tv antenna to that direction and scan for channels.

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A easy way to receive Tv stations of both directions is to install a second antenna , and coax that is not connected to the other antenna and coax.

And connect a Stand Alone Digital Tuner.

The Stand Alone Digital Tuner is connected to the Tv.

Here are some stand alone Digital Tuners.

http://www.epvision.com.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com.

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Digital Tuners can develop - Digital Glitches - that are not cleared out with simple channel scans.

To clear tuner do Double Rescan.

http://www.wchstv.com/DoubleReScanAlert.pdf.

[TheNuke]

Bringing this thread back from the dead...

We got busy on some other projects and I never added the pre-amp as I stated in my last post. We're still getting most channels, but the signal drops out on occasion. Depending on the day a re-tune may or may not pick up FOX. Considering my last posts were in early spring, I suspect the tall trees on his property have filled in and crushed the signal a bit.

I'm getting back around to this now to finish the job and it appears that the 10G201 is no longer made. Is the TVPRAMP1R my current best option? Are there other pre-amps I should consider?

[ADTech]

Depending on the day a re-tune may or may not pick up FOX.

An unnecessary and time-wasting exercise.

I suspect the tall trees on his property have filled in and crushed the signal a bit.

Happens every year. An amp might help a bit, but don't expect it to be a miracle cure.

the 10G201 is no longer made. Is the TVPRAMP1R my current best option? Are there other pre-amps I should consider?

Any medium or high gain, low noise preamp will likely work.

[TheNuke]

Originally Posted by ADTech

An unnecessary and time-wasting exercise.

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure how to interpret that. Are you saying, "give up, you'll never get FOX"? What's confusing to me is that we're able to pick up a relatively weak -89.2dB signal from WGBA 41 (NBC) without issue, but WFRV 39 (CBS) at -83.5 drops. Fox is hi VHF, closer, and stronger at -77.3dB, but is arguably the worst channel to tune.

At the end of the day I just want to make sure that all of the major networks are tuning without dropping. Am I on the entirely wrong path with the 7697 @ 20'? Do I swap out the entire antenna for something like the other recommendation of the HBU44 or DB8e, or do I start with a pre-amp? It seems like I'll want a pre-amp regardless of the antenna choice.

[ADTech]

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure how to interpret that. Are you saying, "give up, you'll never get FOX"?

If the channel is already programmed into memory but signal level and/or quality has dropped below the threshold for reliable reception, rescanning does not do anything useful (except occupy your attention until the signal conditions change and reception happens to return).

[TheNuke]

Originally Posted by ADTech

If the channel is already programmed into memory but signal level and/or quality has dropped below the threshold for reliable reception, rescanning does not do anything useful (except occupy your attention until the signal conditions change and reception happens to return).

Thanks for the quick responses. If you were in my position what would your next steps be?

Right now my thought is that I will do the following:
1. Double-check the assembly/installation of the antenna
2. Install a pre-amp, likely the RCA suggested previously
3. Replace all cables with new QS RG6 (maybe they already are, I just don't know)
4. Double-check the aim with a magnetic compass
5. Rescan

[ADTech]

Please identify WHICH market you're aimed at and and also identify the stations by call letters & virtual channel, not network affiliation. Call letters are 100% unique network affiliations are not.

1. Wouldn't hurt.
2. Yes.
3. No. QS offers zero benefit for you.
4. Use the interactive tool (with the lines) in the SAT view mode for basic alignment. Tweak as needed using your signal quality or SNR meter, if equipped.
5. If you want to...

What is in front of the antenna?

[TheNuke]

Originally Posted by ADTech

Please identify WHICH market you're aimed at and and also identify the stations by call letters & virtual channel, not network affiliation. Call letters are 100% unique network affiliations are not.

1. Wouldn't hurt.
2. Yes.
3. No. QS offers zero benefit for you.
4. Use the interactive tool (with the lines) in the SAT view mode for basic alignment. Tweak as needed using your signal quality or SNR meter, if equipped.
5. If you want to...

What is in front of the antenna?

The antenna is aimed toward the Green Bay market, 141-144 degrees.
WBAY, virtual 2.1, comes in fine, as expected as it is shown as 15.7 NM(dB) on the report
WLUK, real 11 (no virtual is shown) is intermittent at 13.5 NM(dB)
WPNE, real 42 comes in fine and is shown as 7.6 NM(dB)
WFRV, virtual 5.1, is intermittent like WLUK at 7.3 NM(dB)
WGBA, virtual 26.1, is as reliable as WBAY at 1.7 NM(dB)

There are tall trees starting 20' in front of the antenna, no obstructions of rooflines.

[ADTech]

Get a preamp on there and re-evaluate.

[TheNuke]

Originally Posted by ADTech

Get a preamp on there and re-evaluate.

Thanks for all of the responses, I do appreciate it.

I'm trying to do all my homework and make the right call, so forgive me if I have it wrong, but I'm looking at the following pre-amps:
1. RCA - Low cost, ~16dB boost, low noise, not terribly tolerant to overload, lowest build quality
2. CM 7778 - Higher cost, ~16dB boost, low noise, good build quality
3. AD Juice - Higher cost, ~18dB boost, low noise, good build quality

I don't believe I'm anywhere near needing to worry about overload, even at the strongest channels.

Can I go wrong with any of those choices in a scenario in which my strongest signal is listed at 15.7 NM(dB), weakest at about 0 NM(dB)?

[ADTech]

Our PA18 would do fine, we're out of stock on the Juice. You don't have any strong TV signals nearby. I'd go ahead and add an FM filter just to keep WRVM-FM out of the amp and tuner.

[TheNuke]

Originally Posted by ADTech

Our PA18 would do fine, we're out of stock on the Juice. You don't have any strong TV signals nearby. I'd go ahead and add an FM filter just to keep WRVM-FM out of the amp and tuner.

PA18 and Radio Shack FM trap purchased. I'll post back soon, thanks for the help.