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Old 22-Mar-2018, 6:49 PM   #21
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corson6 View Post
Thanks for all the replies, just getting back to this. Rabbit73 how big a shield of aluminum foil and cardboard? Where in relation to the attic antenna do I put it to block out WICD 41? I will try to post pics of the outdoor antenna tonight. Thanks!!


For best reception of WCCU, the antenna should be aimed at WCCU. The cardboard covered with aluminum foil should be at least as large as the antenna and fairly close to the antenna to block WICD. The cardboard should be on the WICD side of the antenna.
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Old 22-Mar-2018, 7:00 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corson6 View Post
Here is a pic of my outside antenna. The WICD 41 tower is BEHIND the tree. So far it's just been a either/or experiment. I don't really know what kind of antenna that is in the attic (or exactly how to shield it with foil and cardboard from WAND 41) Again I would really like to be able to get WCCU DT 27.1 When the interference happens, I see little color squares popping up over the top of the old B&W re-runs I like, so does this mean WICD 41 is trying to come in over the top of WCCU? Thanks again for all the help!


Thank you for the photo of your outside antenna; it looks like a Winegard HD-1080.



For best reception of WCCU, the antenna should be aimed at WCCU. The tree is not big enough to block the WICD signal.
Quote:
When the interference happens, I see little color squares popping up over the top of the old B&W re-runs I like, so does this mean WICD 41 is trying to come in over the top of WCCU?
Yes, WICD is so strong it is damaging the WCCU signal which increases the errors in the WCCU signal and results in pixelation.

The Winegard HD-1080 antenna isn't very directionaj. For best reception of WCCU the antenna needs to be more directional so that it will reject the WICD signal. If that isn't enough, a shield would need to be placed between the antenna and the WICD signal. For an outside antenna, the shield can be a wire mesh screen or a building that blocks the WICD signal, but doesn't block the WCCU signal.

The coax must be grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground to reject interference from WICD.



If even that isn't enough, you will need a custom channel 41 bandstop filter to make the WICD signal weaker. If that works, you will need another custom filter when WICD moves to channel 32:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=wicd

Just having one antenna isn't going to get all the channels you want.
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File Type: jpg Winegard HD-1080 gain.jpg (145.9 KB, 390 views)
File Type: jpg corson6TVFantenna4.jpg (172.8 KB, 391 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 22-Mar-2018 at 8:19 PM.
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Old 22-Mar-2018, 7:08 PM   #23
corson6
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OK Thanks for the reply. The antenna is pointed approx 356 degrees magnetic (according to my phone compass) for WCCU, I'm hoping that's correct. I have plenty of guitar boxes approx 6'x5' I could tack this up on the rafters and let it hang down, cover with foil. I will also ground this antenna's coax splitter to the house panel. Will report back with my results, as soon as I get up in the attic!
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Old 23-Mar-2018, 5:33 PM   #24
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Update: Without going into the attic yet, I put a new 4-way splitter with a built in ground block on the main coax coming off the attic antenna. Currently I only have the bedroom hooked up to this antenna, but eventually would want to add 3 more locations (all very close) Living room, dining room and another bedroom. I hooked up the ground screw to a #12 ground wire going to the main panel of the house. I saw NO issues on WCCU after doing this. HOWEVER I lost all channels on WAND 17 and WBUI 22. I took off the 4-way splitter and put on a 2-way with same ground and everything came back solid, no issues on any channels. I'm guessing I had a bad splitter OR is splitting 4-ways degrading the signal so much I'm loosing everything towards Decatur?
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Old 23-Mar-2018, 10:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corson6 View Post
Update: Without going into the attic yet, I put a new 4-way splitter with a built in ground block on the main coax coming off the attic antenna. Currently I only have the bedroom hooked up to this antenna, but eventually would want to add 3 more locations (all very close) Living room, dining room and another bedroom. I hooked up the ground screw to a #12 ground wire going to the main panel of the house. I saw NO issues on WCCU after doing this. HOWEVER I lost all channels on WAND 17 and WBUI 22.
Thank you for making the test with the ground connection for the attic antenna. An indoor antenna is not required by the NEC code to be grounded, but in your case it helped because the very strong WICD signal was getting directly into the TV when the coax wasn't grounded.



Quote:
is splitting 4-ways degrading the signal so much I'm loosing everything towards Decatur?
yes

Your antenna is very directional. When it is aimed at WCCU, it doesn't pick up WAND and WBUI very well because they are in a different direction. That is why it is difficult to pick up everything you want with just one antenna.

You should first work on your antenna system to get all the channels you want for just ONE TV, then you can add a distribution amp if necessary to compensate for the splitting loss.
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File Type: jpg corson6TVFmap.JPG (61.7 KB, 327 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Mar-2018 at 2:59 PM.
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Old 24-Mar-2018, 5:05 AM   #26
corson6
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Rabbit73 I REALLY appreciate all your help! So, looks like I need a second antenna to go with the attic one? Should it go in the attic also? I could use the Winegard that's out in my yard, or there's a open box deal on a C2V at Best Buy for $35. Can I use a splitter in reverse to combine them? Or does it need to be a "combiner"? The UVSJ has been mentioned, but when I google it I'm not finding one. I'm concerned once I start adding TVs I'm going to have trouble, and the consensus seems to be NO AMP because of WICD being so close. This has been challenging but I'm making good progress. Thanks again for all your help!
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Old 24-Mar-2018, 5:48 PM   #27
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This signal report from rabbitears.info shows the channels you want:




Quote:
Originally Posted by corson6 View Post
So, looks like I need a second antenna to go with the attic one?
It does look like you will need two antennas to get everything you want. The attic antenna is for UHF and VHF, but since it seems to be doing well for WCCU Fox, I would use it just for Fox.
Quote:
Should it go in the attic also?
Your second antenna, for the signals from the west, can be inside or outside; you will need to do some more experiments.
Quote:
I could use the Winegard that's out in my yard, or there's a open box deal on a C2V at Best Buy for $35.
Neither one of those antennas is suitable for the signals from the west, because they don't have enough gain for WILL PBS on VHF-High channel 9. You need a UHF/VHF combo antenna like the Winegard HD7694P for the channels from the west.
Quote:
Can I use a splitter in reverse to combine them?
A splitter in reverse CAN be used to combine two antennas aimed in different directions, but it doesn't always work; you just have to try it. You would be combining UHF signals from two antennas that would interfere with each other if they don't arrive at the combining point in phase (arrive at the same instant).

If you don't get all the channels after combining that you had when the antennas were separate, then combining with a splitter in reverse doesn't work for your location.
Quote:
Or does it need to be a "combiner"? The UVSJ has been mentioned, but when I google it I'm not finding one.
The UVSJ (UHF-VHF-Separator-Joiner) is a type of combiner; it combines a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna, but not two antennas that both receive UHF signals. In your case, for example, if you only wanted to receive just Fox 26 and PBS 9, you could use a UVSJ to combine a UHF and a VHF antenna that are aimed in different directions.

UVSJs (AKA UHF/VHF Diplexer) are getting hard to find. This is what they look like:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...Combiners.html

https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...blyInstall.pdf





https://www.radioshack.com/products/...itter-combiner





Quote:
I'm concerned once I start adding TVs I'm going to have trouble, and the consensus seems to be NO AMP because of WICD being so close. This has been challenging but I'm making good progress. Thanks again for all your help!
Based on your signal report, the consensus is that a preamp should not be used because WICD is extremely strong. But, the actual WICD signal at your location might be a lot weaker because trees block TV signals (the report doesn't know about the trees), and since you are so close to the WICD tower, the strongest part of the signal beam might be well above your location. Also, since neither antenna will be aimed at WICD, that will make it weaker.

If you had a signal level meter, you could measure the strength of the signals, but you might have a TV with a relative signal strength indicator in the menu. With it, you could find out just how weak a signal can be and still be received.

With the proper antennas, aimed in the correct direction, WCCU and the signals from the west should be strong enough. Once you have each antenna able to pick up the channels you want, then we can talk about the combining options. If the signals are still too weak after splitting, then a distribution amp can be added before the splitter.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg corson6TVFreportRE.JPG (97.4 KB, 273 views)
File Type: jpg RS 15-2586previous.jpg (144.6 KB, 274 views)
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Old 24-Mar-2018, 6:59 PM   #28
corson6
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Thank you Rabbit73 for all your help. Odd occurrence this morning is all channels were coming in great EXCEPT WCCU from which we had no reception at all. Very strange. Lots of bad weather today, so that could be a factor. Thanks for all the combiner info! I will look at a winegard HD7694P
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Old 24-Mar-2018, 7:39 PM   #29
rabbit73
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Quote:
Odd occurrence this morning is all channels were coming in great EXCEPT WCCU from which we had no reception at all. Very strange. Lots of bad weather today, so that could be a factor.
Trees block TV signals, especially when they are wet.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
Scroll down to Trees and UHF if the hdtvprimer.com site is up.

extract from that page:



Because the WCCU antenna is in the attic, you could try the suggestion by ADTech to add the Antennas Direct Juice preamp. That preamp resists overload as he said, but it might overload the TV tuner, in which case you could insert an inexpensive attenuator to prevent that.

You also have a very strong local FM transmitter, WGNJ, also to the north, that might cause overload:

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/a...a/Radar-FM.png



Since the attic antenna also covers VHF, it will make the WGNJ FM signal even stronger. You could try inserting an FM filter in the coax between the antenna and the preamp input, but for some strange reason Antennas Direct has discontinued their FM filter and they were the only regular source left:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...on_filter.html

As a substitute, you can insert a UVSJ, UHF and common ports, which will pass only UHF signals and block VHF and FM.

WCCU attic antenna > UVSJ > Juice preamp > coax > power inserter > TV

This is an experiment; I can not offer a guarantee.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg corson6TVFreportFM.JPG (117.4 KB, 265 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 25-Mar-2018 at 1:49 AM.
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Old 24-Mar-2018, 7:43 PM   #30
corson6
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Thanks for the link! And there aren't even any leaves on them yet!!
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Old 24-Mar-2018, 10:31 PM   #31
rabbit73
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I wish I could give you some easy answers for your reception problem, but you have a difficult location. You will just have to continue with your antenna experiments to see what works, and in so doing you will learn a lot about OTA reception.



Even if you had your antennas on a tower that was above the trees, you would still have a very strong WICD, channels in different directions, and FM interference to deal with.

A custom channel 41 bandstop filter to make WICD weaker from Tin Lee Electronics would probably cost over $100.
http://www.tinlee.com/MATV-Bandstops.php?active=3

You would have to call them and talk with one of their filter engineers and send your TVFool signal report.

PAR Electronics might be able to make one for less:
http://www.parelectronics.com/single-channel-tv.php

The least expensive filter would be from Jan Jenca in Slovakia. They sell on eBay.
http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/eng...ct/filtre.html



They also sell combiners, and could make one for Fox on real channel 26 that would allow you to add it to the other channels before splitting.

http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/eng...zlucovace.html

Attached Images
File Type: jpg corson6TVFtrees.JPG (193.5 KB, 256 views)
__________________
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Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Mar-2018 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 30-Mar-2018, 5:40 PM   #32
corson6
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UPDATE: I purchased the Winegard 7694p as suggested by Rabbit73 (thank you) and put it on the tripod in the back yard. Pointed towards WCCU 360 magnetic I was still getting intermittent pixel distortion. Nothing on WAND or WBUI to the West from Decatur. I went out and swung the antenna towards the West about 260 magnetic and now I've got EVERYTHING...21 channels, and WCCU is so far coming in flawlessly. I know the leaves are not on the trees yet, but somehow all channels were very clear last night and this morning. I'm just hooked up to my bedroom TV with quite a bit more RG6 than I need (it's running to the living room then back, prob about 100' or so) so I assume the next step would be just leave the attic antenna out of it and start splitting to my 3 other TVs?
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Old 30-Mar-2018, 8:17 PM   #33
rabbit73
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Thanks for the report; your test results are encouraging. Keep experimenting to see what works.
Quote:
I assume the next step would be just leave the attic antenna out of it and start splitting to my 3 other TVs?
I know you want just one antenna to get everything from the west and north, but it might not be that easy. It's worth a try, though.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 30-Mar-2018 at 8:24 PM.
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Old 11-Apr-2018, 8:47 PM   #34
corson6
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Here's my latest update. I turned my attic antenna back towards the south west like I did the new 7694 antenna in the back yard, and bingo! All the channels came in perfect. So now I am splitting the attic antenna for my son's bedroom and the dining room. Then I'm splitting the backyard antenna for my master bedroom and living room. Right now, it's all working perfect. Some nights I'm pulling in other channels Charleston when I do a new scan. Don't know what will happen when the trees leaf out, but right now it's working great. Thanks for all the help here. I just started a new thread on my commercial building in Downtown Champaign.
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