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Old 12-Jan-2016, 3:51 PM   #21
ADTech
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I don't get these signal fluctuations without the PA-18......Can there signal fluctuations be the Pre-amp clipping?
Yes, it could be. I wanted to eliminate the very pronounced risk of FM overload first. Some of the stronger UHF signals are near the limit of vulnerability to PA18 overload. I made a very simple rule for our in-house sales and support staff: If the TVFool estimate shows stations "in the green", don't sell or recommend the PA18, it's really for rural locations only where everything is weak.

Shoot me your mailing info, either by PM or via email to info (at) antennasdirect.com and I'll send out a Juice. I KNOW it won't get overloaded whereas the PA18 might be, perhaps by something as yet unidentified.

rickbb already made the specific point that I was angling toward. His advice is spot on, but yI'd recommend that you try the Juice first before committing to a relocation of the antenna. BTW, I can't see any photo of the install, perhaps it got lost.
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Old 12-Jan-2016, 4:35 PM   #22
shoman94
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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Yes, it could be. I wanted to eliminate the very pronounced risk of FM overload first. Some of the stronger UHF signals are near the limit of vulnerability to PA18 overload. I made a very simple rule for our in-house sales and support staff: If the TVFool estimate shows stations "in the green", don't sell or recommend the PA18, it's really for rural locations only where everything is weak.

Shoot me your mailing info, either by PM or via email to info (at) antennasdirect.com and I'll send out a Juice. I KNOW it won't get overloaded whereas the PA18 might be, perhaps by something as yet unidentified.

rickbb already made the specific point that I was angling toward. His advice is spot on, but yI'd recommend that you try the Juice first before committing to a relocation of the antenna. BTW, I can't see any photo of the install, perhaps it got lost.
Post 13 has an attachment that shows the satellite view of my home and I placed the marker right where my antenna is mounted.

So if it were in fact reflecting off the roof that way, wouldn't that fluctuation show up even without the amplifier?

I will PM you my info. Thanks!
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Old 12-Jan-2016, 4:44 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rickbb View Post
With a metal roof between the antenna and the transmitting tower you could be getting reflections of the signal from the roof. This can cause issues.

You may want to try a taller mast or move the antenna to the other side of the house to eliminate that reflection.

Of course none of that may work, but it needs to be eliminated and trial and error location testing is the only way to do it.
Thanks, I have read that the antenna should be installed 10 feet above the metal roof. Adding another 5 feet length is probably an easier change but my only concern there would be stability. Maybe I'd have to go to a larger mast.

I'm not seeing the fluctuation without the amp so I wasn't considering the roof being an issue. But I could be wrong.
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Old 12-Jan-2016, 5:55 PM   #24
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Some times I conclude that this stuff is some combination of black magic, voodoo, and blind luck, either good or bad... Some times I'm surprised it even works at all...

You should have the amp in a few days, let me know how it turns out.
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Old 12-Jan-2016, 6:04 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Some times I conclude that this stuff is some combination of black magic, voodoo, and blind luck, either good or bad... Some times I'm surprised it even works at all...

You should have the amp in a few days, let me know how it turns out.
lol, thanks I will!
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 1:42 AM   #26
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For shits and giggles I removed the PA-18 and purchased an RCA VH140R (Power splitter/amplifier at Lowe's.

My signal does not jump any more. I also have better signal on a couple channels. I'm still having the same skips with my XBox One and the Hauppauge tuner but it does it about half as much so its an improvement! Hopefully the Juice will will solve it 100%
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Old 14-Jan-2016, 12:10 PM   #27
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I'm starting to think that something with the XBOX is the issue. I took the tuner and plugged it into my Win10 Laptop and installed WinTV. No issues with stuttering!
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Old 14-Jan-2016, 3:23 PM   #28
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I'm starting to think that something with the XBOX is the issue. I took the tuner and plugged it into my Win10 Laptop and installed WinTV. No issues with stuttering!
That sounds like a good clue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
That doesn't take me to your FM report, it takes me to the page to enter your location. FM reports don't link the same way that tvfool reports link. Based on an estimate of your location, this is your FM report. You can see how close I came:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/a...4/Radar-FM.png
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Old 14-Jan-2016, 3:28 PM   #29
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That sounds like a good clue.

That doesn't take me to your FM report, it takes me to the page to enter your location. FM reports don't link the same way that tvfool reports link. Based on an estimate of your location, this is your FM report. You can see how close I came:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/a...4/Radar-FM.png
I don't know what happened there..... I guess I can't post it the same way. See attached.
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File Type: png Radar-FM.png (102.8 KB, 192 views)

Last edited by shoman94; 14-Jan-2016 at 3:31 PM.
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Old 15-Jan-2016, 3:13 AM   #30
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I received the JUICE today.... its definately a better preamp and has a controlled signal. It also gave me a few more channels..... but .....I still have the same results. Last night I hooked the tuner directly to my Win 10 PC and everything was great. oh Microsoft!
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Old 15-Jan-2016, 3:28 PM   #31
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Did you leave the FM filter(s) installed? The Juice will pass FM amplified which can clobber tuners.
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Old 15-Jan-2016, 3:55 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Did you leave the FM filter(s) installed? The Juice will pass FM amplified which can clobber tuners.
Yes I left them installed. Like I posted above that I believe its something with the XBOX software causing the issue. I found other people complaining about it and that it happened after the last software update. Both my other TVs are not exhibiting these problems and the same tuner plugged into my WIN10 PC is just fine as well, so I'm returning the tuner and picking up and Tivo Roamio OTA box and BestBuy for 50 bucks. I'll post later tonight when I get everything setup. I also ordered a PCT 4 way power distributer which arrives today.

The Juice surely helped with stabilizing the signal and getting me another set of VHF channels I wasn't getting with the PA-18.
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Old 17-Jan-2016, 3:57 PM   #33
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Got my Roamio OTA DVR and all is well. Using 2 fm traps, the juice and a PCT 4 port distributer.

Is there any reason why I should move the traps and juice up by the antenna? I have 2 channels (WENH and WPXG ) I get a 30% signal with.... I need 40% for it to play. I don't need them honestly but WPXG would be nice. I'm thinking keeping the traps and juice out of the weather is best. I'm about 30 feet from where the juice and traps are now indoors to the antenna.
Thoughts?

EDIT: For some reason tonight I had some issues (pixelation) with WGME and had to remove the JUICE preamp. This was the first time since getting the antenna I had this issue. For some reason this channel is also about 20% lower then its been since installing my C4V..... screwy!

Edit2: Re-aimed the antenna today. Rehooked the JUICE ... all good again.

Last edited by shoman94; 18-Jan-2016 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 19-Jan-2016, 12:02 AM   #34
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Just to update my progress in case my experience can help someone else.

This TVFOOL: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51347570c1f198

I have my antenna 20 ft up on a gable mount and its 5 feet above my metal roof and pointed thru a huge pine tree 70 feet away. See image attached.

I have the antenna C4V pointed at 21 degrees magnetic and the VHF antenna mounted on top of the left reflector.

Channels I get 90 to 100% signal:
Real 8, 38, 43 and 35

Channels I get 60 to 89% signal:
Real 44, 45, 23 and 10

Channel 11 comes in sometimes and 33 is just to low to give me a picture.

Equipment:
Antennas Direct C4V, Antennas Direct Juice preamp, 2x Radio Shack FM Traps, PCT 4 Port amplified splitter going to 3 TVs (soon 4).

So I answered my original question with trial and error. I'm ok not using the amplified splitter with the preamp or no preamp and an amplified splitter. But using both together actually increased my signal strength on most channels so I'm keeping both.
My FM traps and Preamp are located indoors 30 feet from the antenna and the amplified splitter is within 18 inches of the preamp inserter.
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File Type: jpg TVFoolReport.JPG (129.6 KB, 172 views)

Last edited by shoman94; 19-Jan-2016 at 2:30 PM.
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Old 19-Jan-2016, 1:41 PM   #35
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Assuming that channel 33 is real channel 3, then you will need to point your VHF element at 257 mag. and channel 11 will need the VHF pointed at 253 mag. If you have it pointed the same as your UHF at 21 mag then it's aimed the wrong way.

You might try to split the difference, but, channel 33, (3) has a NM value of only 1.8 and it's a 2 edge so you may never get it without a large old school VHF antenna. (If then.)
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Old 19-Jan-2016, 2:28 PM   #36
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Assuming that channel 33 is real channel 3, then you will need to point your VHF element at 257 mag. and channel 11 will need the VHF pointed at 253 mag. If you have it pointed the same as your UHF at 21 mag then it's aimed the wrong way.

You might try to split the difference, but, channel 33, (3) has a NM value of only 1.8 and it's a 2 edge so you may never get it without a large old school VHF antenna. (If then.)
Real channel 33 on his plot is WPXG, the ION affiliate from Concord, NH, virtual channel 21. It's off the back of the C4V and it would not be expected to be received at those forecasted levels off the back of any antenna than has any F/B ratio greater than 0.

WORK-LP is presumably still operating under their STA at a measly 58 watts ERP while they wait out the FCC's spectrum actions. That meager signal will never make it to this location.

Quote:
My FM traps and Preamp are located indoors 30 feet from the antenna
You would improve your system noise margin by at least 2 dB if you put the amp immediately at the antenna as is customary.
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Old 19-Jan-2016, 2:49 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by rickbb View Post
Assuming that channel 33 is real channel 3, then you will need to point your VHF element at 257 mag. and channel 11 will need the VHF pointed at 253 mag. If you have it pointed the same as your UHF at 21 mag then it's aimed the wrong way.

You might try to split the difference, but, channel 33, (3) has a NM value of only 1.8 and it's a 2 edge so you may never get it without a large old school VHF antenna. (If then.)
Real 33 is WPXG (ION) Which is on the back side as ADTECH mentioned. Without using a tinlee or a rotor or separate tuners... I highly doubt I'll get it. I don't need the channel I'm happy with it.
Channel 11 is another PBS and I already get 2 other PBS stations so I'm ok with not getting that one as well. The VHF are Di-pole's... I'm not sure it has any gain is any direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Real channel 33 on his plot is WPXG, the ION affiliate from Concord, NH, virtual channel 21. It's off the back of the C4V and it would not be expected to be received at those forecasted levels off the back of any antenna than has any F/B ratio greater than 0.

WORK-LP is presumably still operating under their STA at a measly 58 watts ERP while they wait out the FCC's spectrum actions. That meager signal will never make it to this location.



You would improve your system noise margin by at least 2 dB if you put the amp immediately at the antenna as is customary.
What would installing the FM traps after the preamp do? The FM trap don't appear to be very weather proof. lol
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Old 19-Jan-2016, 3:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
The VHF are Di-pole's... I'm not sure it has any gain is any direction.
A dipole antenna does have gain compared to an omni-directional antenna. It is directional. The maximum signal is received broadside to the antenna on each side making a dipole essentially bi-directional. A dipole receives very poorly off the ends of the antenna elements.
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Old 19-Jan-2016, 3:40 PM   #39
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A dipole antenna does have gain compared to an omni-directional antenna. It is directional. The maximum signal is received broadside to the antenna on each side making a dipole essentially bi-directional. A dipole receives very poorly off the ends of the antenna elements.
Ok I found the chart (see attached) and look like I would benefit to aiming the dipole separately from the panel. Thanks for that.
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Old 19-Jan-2016, 5:55 PM   #40
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What would installing the FM traps after the preamp do?
Typically, filtering is done prior to amplification to prevent the amplifier from creating distortion products with the amplifier itself.

However, in the case of the Juice, that thing is so tolerant of strong signals it will simply pass any FM signals though it (amplified, of course) without any discernible internally generated distortion. Unfortunately, that would then shift the risk of distortion to the active devices further down the chain such as tuners or any subsequent amps.

In your specific situation [emphasis added], you can readily install the tramps downstream of the Juice's power inserter and still keep any strong FM signals out of the downstream signal path. Since you're filtering post-amplification, you'll essentially need an extra trap in order to knock down the already-amplified FM signals.
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