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Old 20-Jan-2019, 12:44 AM   #1
corvairbob
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antenna question

i have an antenna that is made from pvc material is about 4' long and has maybe 50' of cable sticking out of it. i got it for a guy that had the tv station in muskegon wmgk for years bud kelly. he died about a year ago and i never got a chance to ask him how he made it. i installed it with the other antenna i have but at that time it did not seem to get any channels so i took it down and tossed it on the fence.

since that time my girl was in need of some kind of antenna so i grabbed it one day and stuck it up on the gable peak of her house and the thing is getting more channels than the system i have.

so i was thinking of unplugging my antennas and installing one like this one that i just could make by myself but now it is like 40' up on her roof and i do not want to climb up there in the winter and take it down just to take it apart and see how bud made it and then put it back up.

so i'm curious if anyone here has a similar antenna or even happens to know just how bud made them. being he was the operator of that tv station i figure he know just how to make them for ota tv channels in our area.

my guess is it is just a pc. of coax that he striped down and left the inner wire out for a length and stuck it inside the cpvc pipe, but i do not want to just guess at that procedure. so maybe someone here has one or built one or even know how to do it? i then can just disconnect my system and put this up and see just well it works. being it is a single dipole type antenna it is omni directional and that is perfect for me because i have stations all around me and will not have to point it.

thanks for any help
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Old 20-Jan-2019, 2:43 PM   #2
Tower Guy
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It sounds like a skeleton slot antenna. I can’t find anything on line that describes it, so I’ll try.

Think of it as a folded dipole, but fed across the narrow part in the middle instead of breaking the side apart to feed it. Even though the wires are vertical, it is horizontally polarized.

Last edited by Tower Guy; 20-Jan-2019 at 4:29 PM.
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Old 20-Jan-2019, 11:59 PM   #3
corvairbob
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thanks. becasue i don't know what your saying maybe someone has a picture. if not then this summer i guess i will take that one down and cut the bottom off and pull it out and see what it looks like. just trying to avoid that work. if this is what your trying to describe it is not what i have. the one i have is about 4' long and made from 3/4" and 1/2" cpvc with the coax sticking out about 40" worth. i do not have a picture but maybe tomorrow when i'm over there i will try to get a picture form the ground and post that.

thanks


[IMG]


http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrEzNx1DEVcIm4AjOijzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBtdXBkbHJyBHNlYwNmcC1hdHRyaWIEc2xrA3J1c mw-/RV=2/RE=1548057845/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.dxzone.com%2fdx32340%2fvhf-skeleton-slot-antenna.html/RK=2/RS=87fO7YxceN5E0mF3.5sYMogfgvw-[/IMG]

Last edited by corvairbob; 21-Jan-2019 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 21-Jan-2019, 2:54 PM   #4
corvairbob
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this is the antenna i'm talking about if the picture shows up if not maybe someone can help me figure the picture out. thanks
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Old 21-Jan-2019, 4:01 PM   #5
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corvairbob View Post
this is the antenna i'm talking about if the picture shows up if not maybe someone can help me figure the picture out. thanks
Thanks for the interesting antenna photo. Can you zoom in closer?



I think Tower Guy is correct when he calls it a slot antenna, but probably not a skeleton slot antenna. The slots are vertical, but the polarization is horizontal. A skeleton slot antenna has a vertical loop that is the driven element for a vertical stack of 2 yagis with directors. What is unknown, is how directional is the antenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_antenna
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Last edited by rabbit73; 22-Jan-2019 at 3:55 AM.
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 1:08 PM   #6
corvairbob
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i will see if i can chop it closer for you. see if this works better if not i will retake it but i can't get any closer.

as far a directionality where we live we have stations to the north east and south east and it get them all real good. some days she gets pixelation on the stations that are like 40 miles away but for the most part she says it does a good job. i used it at my house 2 years ago and it did not add anything to my channel selection. but now that we have all talked about this it may have been the other antennas were canceling out this antennas ability to add to the pot.

i then tried it last summer by taping it to a pc. pipe and leaning it against the front of my house and i got all the stations but they were iffy at the most they worked some days and then other days some when away, thank may have been due to not being up on the roof. so what i want to do is get another one but bud died and i have no clue about this. so this spring i guess i will have to take this one apart and see how it is made and then make a few more.

bud operated the muskegon tv40 then 39 called wmkg. so he must have had some idea about how to make them.
thanks
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 1:20 PM   #7
corvairbob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thanks for the interesting antenna photo. Can you zoom in closer?



I think Tower Guy is correct when he calls it a slot antenna, but probably not a skeleton slot antenna. The slots are vertical, but the polarization is horizontal. A skeleton slot antenna has a vertical loop that is the driven element for a vertical stack of 2 yagis with directors. What is unknown, is how directional is the antenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_antenna
try this now and see if it look larger. quality is not as good but you should get the idea.
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 2:44 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by corvairbob View Post
try this now and see if it look larger. quality is not as good but you should get the idea.
Thank you. Yes, you can enlarge and crop it, but you lose detail. You would need a zoom lens on your camera to get closer without needing a ladder so that there would be more pixels for better detail.

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Last edited by rabbit73; 22-Jan-2019 at 2:46 PM.
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 2:53 PM   #9
corvairbob
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that larger picture i send show it as it is only a bit fuzzy i will try to get a better on but that will happen next week when i'm at the house. i will try to zoom in on it better. but even in the last picture there is not much to show. it is just a section of cpvc and the coax coming out of it. inside the cpvc there has to be wire but how it is positioned anyone's guess. i'm just thinking it is a stripped back section of coax up inside and the 2 sizes of cpvc are just so you can manage how to mount it and for looks and strength. one thing will be for sure this spring i will find out how it is made, unless i find one around town that someone got and then no longer wants it. i may do a craigslist with a picture and see if someone has one for sale. thanks
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 3:10 PM   #10
corvairbob
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so with the talk of horizontal tv antenna tell me are they better that the one i have listed and talking about here? i tried searching for pictures on the one i have and for the mst part all i find are horizontal type tv antennas. the one i put up for my girl is shown and it get all the local stations i get plus a few more, and it is this puny 4' lont pc of cpvc pipe with coax running out the bottom, i know it has the coas inside and don't know anymore about how it is set up inside.
but in the research for the most part i see horizontal type home made tv antennas. no i have no knowledge of the names of these but the talk here is horizontal waves. i do not want to take a class on the technology of the tv broadcasting but it seems to me the pole type i have wi more suited to omni directional pickup rather than a horizontal style that will only receive perpendicular to the sender. now i learned that from radios year ago when the dipole inside them would not receive if i pointed the rod like a gun barrel to the towers. so the only want i can see a horizontal type antenna getting 360 deg signals is if it is like a cross on it's side. am i correct or not.
i say this because i have 3 antenna on my roof now and they are all pointing 3 different directions and they are the yagi type or horizontal beams. and they seem to do a bit of interfering of each other and that little pole antenna i put up for the girl gets way more than i get. thanks
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 6:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corvairbob View Post
that larger picture i send show it as it is only a bit fuzzy i will try to get a better on but that will happen next week when i'm at the house. i will try to zoom in on it better. but even in the last picture there is not much to show. it is just a section of cpvc and the coax coming out of it. inside the cpvc there has to be wire but how it is positioned anyone's guess.
That is true. Even if the detail was better, we still wouldn't
know what was inside.
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 6:56 PM   #12
corvairbob
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i made contact with a local tv station and they have an employee of the guy that made this antenna working for them. what luck he said it is a horizontal dipole type antenna so you guys have that correct. he also told me that the tv stations may start to add vertical type transmission antennas because they do not have to limit the output power and my guess is more power to them and hence a larger audience. one local station has done this now if i understand him correctly may follow that pattern. if so this type of antenna may work real good for home made units. he said this type works good for both types of signals but better for vertical. he told me the horizontal signals get blocked by there towers and that the signal for some reason gets turned to the vertical.

and he is going to try to see about finding me one or getting me the diagram to make one for myself to test next summer. thanks
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 7:09 PM   #13
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corvairbob View Post
so with the talk of horizontal tv antenna tell me are they better that the one i have listed and talking about here?
An antenna for receiving TV signals should have horizontal polarization because TV signals have primarily horizontal polarization. Just because the PVC tubing is vertical, doesn't mean that the antenna has vertical polarization. It is possible for a vertical antenna to have horizontal polarization if it is a slot antenna, which is why Tower Guy, who is a retired TV station engineer, guessed a slot design.
Quote:
i tried searching for pictures on the one i have and for the mst part all i find are horizontal type tv antennas. the one i put up for my girl is shown and it get all the local stations i get plus a few more, and it is this puny 4' lont pc of cpvc pipe with coax running out the bottom, i know it has the coas inside and don't know anymore about how it is set up inside.
I suspect that it has more than just coax inside because it performs well and was built by a TV station engineer.
Quote:
i do not want to take a class on the technology of the tv broadcasting but it seems to me the pole type i have wi more suited to omni directional pickup rather than a horizontal style that will only receive perpendicular to the sender.
Yes, a vertical antenna usually has vertical polarization and an Omni pattern. But, if it is a slot design, it can be a vertical antenna with horizontal polarization and an Omni pattern
Quote:
i say this because i have 3 antenna on my roof now and they are all pointing 3 different directions and they are the yagi type or horizontal beams. and they seem to do a bit of interfering of each other and that little pole antenna i put up for the girl gets way more than i get.
That does make me curious about what is inside the PVC. I hope you can look inside without damaging it.

Have you combined your 3 antennas in some way or do they have separate feed lines?
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Old 22-Jan-2019, 10:06 PM   #14
corvairbob
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thanks i'm trying my best to describe what i have and have been talking about. it sure is hard to fathom a 1/2" cpvc pipe with a pc of coax insie it being what your talking aobut but all i can say is it works and i'm going to try to find another to test this spring

my 3 andennat are combined down in my garage and then i feed that to a amp and then split that to my 4 tv locations. thanks
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Old 23-Jan-2019, 3:48 AM   #15
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How did you combine them in the garage; what did you use to do that?
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Old 23-Jan-2019, 1:11 PM   #16
corvairbob
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i ran all 2 coax cable from each antenna down into the garage and that is where i have the system. i used a combiner for 3 into 1 and from that combiner i ran to an amp. the amp is not a high dollar one it is a cheapy from china but i have used it for over 10 years for splitting the cable company signal. so i moved all my tv networking out into the garage and then i ran separate cables to each tv from that splitter. the only think i do not like with that splitter is the terminals are metric. so i can't get them all the way on the amp, but it seem to be doing the job. thanks
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Old 9-Feb-2019, 4:13 PM   #17
Statmanmi
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WOOD TV 8 Muskegon DRT offline through March 2019 for repack new frequency

Hi Corvairbob,

After what one of my colleagues found out in an e-mail this week, I wanted to pass along the following to you. I'm finding this thread is the follow-up to the one that was going last year:

https://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?p=60382

The Digital Replacement Translator (DRT) broadcast near Muskegon for WOOD TV 8 NBC is currently offline. There's been no crawl for this, nor posting on their website. And maybe because it's a DRT, there's not even been a FCC filing.

My co-worker who lives north of Ravenna (but still in Muskegon county) had just gotten his antenna adjusted to where he was getting this signal great. Then around February 1st, it ceased to reach him.

He initiated a message to the station through their website's "Contact Us" page. The e-mail that came back to him explained that the repack to the new frequency (from RF46 down to RF34) is now progressing, and that "after March 2019" viewers in the area will need to re-scan each of their TVs to find the new signal. (But it'll still have the same "virtual channels" of 8-x.)

Perhaps you and your girl at both your locations have already realized that the lack of NBC is not your antennas. I'll try to post back once my colleague mentions to me that he's getting it again from the Muskegon area tower.


I'm also reading in this thread that you've come up with a way to have your TV antenna(s) on the garage roof again, and get their output across the driveway to your home. That's great! My sense in our messages before is that the large trees (and their leaves) were a big part of you hindered reception.

Cheers! Statmanmi
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Old 9-Feb-2019, 4:26 PM   #18
corvairbob
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thanks just so you know so far my girl still gets tv 8 from that pvc type antenna. i do not get tv 8 at all with my setup. i think that is due to some type of interference between the antennas. i do get 29-1-2-3 so this spring if tv 8 stops showing then i will rescan and see if it improves.

the tech told me they are using a different kind of signal and that allows them to boost the power some. and he said most of the stations if not all f them are thinking hard of doing the samething to boost signal to get more audience. that will help a lot.

the tech at tv8 has a fellow tech that know the boy of the guy that made that pvc antenna and i'm trying to get the info on it so i can build one without taking the one i have apart and seeing how it is made and just coping it. but if i do not get that info before spring i will have to take it apart and see how bud made it and copy it. then i'm going to test it out to see if it gets all the stations better than my conglomeration.

thanks for the help bp.
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Old 9-Feb-2019, 8:11 PM   #19
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corvairbob View Post
thanks just so you know so far my girl still gets tv 8 from that pvc type antenna. i do not get tv 8 at all with my setup. i think that is due to some type of interference between the antennas. i do get 29-1-2-3 so this spring if tv 8 stops showing then i will rescan and see if it improves.
It is possible that there is interference between the antennas; combining antennas aimed in different directions with a splitter in reverse doesn't always work. If you don't have all the channels after combining that you had when the antennas were separate, that method of combining doesn't work for you.



With all those trees in the signal paths, why do you expect good reception? Trees block TV signals.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
Scroll down to Trees and UHF





Attached Images
File Type: jpg corvairbobTVFreportRE.JPG (166.3 KB, 891 views)
File Type: jpg corvairbobTVFgrnLines.JPG (147.6 KB, 909 views)
File Type: jpg corvairbobTVFtrees.JPG (147.7 KB, 888 views)
File Type: jpg corvairbobTVFlookingSouth.JPG (92.4 KB, 892 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 9-Feb-2019 at 8:19 PM.
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Old 9-Feb-2019, 8:17 PM   #20
corvairbob
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i get 13 17 29 35 54

i do not get 8 nd if i seperate the antennas it is worse than combining them. the photo that shows the antenna is the south antenna i have one on the north end the north end points to the north and east the south one points the east and south.

the pvc antenna on my girls house is on the east side of her roof at the peak. it gets 8 13 17 29 35 54 but 35 and 54 are sometimes iffy. i think if i put on an amp that will improve. thanks
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