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Old 15-Aug-2012, 3:26 AM   #1
RoyTV
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Help with 2edge channels

I am using a side-by-side bow tie antenna w/pre Amp at 35 ft and I am not getting any signal at all from KOMO, KING, KIRO, KSTW or KCTS. I get ION KUNS, KCPQ, etc... just fine with immaculate reception.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...99003c5498c72e

I realize I am dealing with 2 major obstructions and even at 100ft I can only overcome 1 of them so putting the antenna up any higher is useless.

What are my options for antennas specific to heavy diffraction? I also have an old DirecTV dish I can modify if need be. Any help would be appreciated.
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Old 15-Aug-2012, 4:05 AM   #2
GroundUrMast
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The KUNS signal is still broadcast from Tiger Mt. just east of Issaquah, which is were KWPX-ION is broadcast from together with KWDK and a couple other low power signals that you probably don't see. I say all that because you may think your seeing something from Queen Anne when you're not.

KOMO, KING, KIRO, KCTS & KSTW all broadcast from Queen Anne Hill and Capitol Hill in Seattle and call for the highest available gain antenna(s).

A single antenna solution would be a Winegard HD7698P or Antennacraft HBU-55...

Another valid approach would be a separate UHF antenna and a High-VHF.

UHF: Antennas Direct 91XG or Winegard HD9095P
H-VHF: Antennacraft Y10713 or Winegard YA1713

I would not write off more antenna altitude if you can afford it. You don't need to achieve LOS in order for additional height to be of help.

What make/model preamp are you using now?
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Old 15-Aug-2012, 4:35 AM   #3
RoyTV
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I have a Channel Master 4228HD and ANTENNAS DIRECT PA-18 at the top of the pole currently.

And no it is not affordable to put up a monster commercial antenna mast. I have 3 pieces of standard steel antenna mast attached to the corner of my shop. I would prefer something I can combine with the channel master that is specific for picking up those signals from Seattle.

I am also curious why an 8 bay channel master with a reflector is too low gain?

Thanks for the reply.
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Old 15-Aug-2012, 5:20 AM   #4
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Tv Reception.

A Teleview Recommendation.

Your location has receivable Digital Tv stations/channels in the VHF high band channels 7 thru 13 and UHF band channels 14 thru 51.

Examples:

KOMO-TV Real Digital UHF channel 38 , virtual number (4.1) ABC.

KCTS-DT Real Digital VHF channel 9 , virtual number (9.1) PBS.
____________________

Install a Winegard HD7698P antenna that receives the VHF high band and UHF band.
Aimed at about 0 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

As always , trees and tree leaves do a real fine job of , reflecting , reducing , blocking , Tv reception.
Buildings and other obstructions are also not good for Tv reception.

Mount the antenna where there is the least amount to no amount of close obstructions.

Here are some but not all antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com.

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing the word ronard in the solidsignal search box.

Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.amazon.com.

The Tv/s Must Channel Scan for the Digital Broadcast Tv Channels , sometimes named the 'Air Channels' or 'Antenna Channels' in the Tv setup menu because the Tv transmissions travel through the air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna.

DO NOT channel scan for cable tv channels.

Last edited by teleview; 25-Aug-2012 at 2:07 AM.
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Old 15-Aug-2012, 5:27 AM   #5
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Tv Reception.

A Teleview Recommandation.

How many Tv's are/will be connected??

Last edited by teleview; 25-Aug-2012 at 2:08 AM.
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Old 15-Aug-2012, 6:13 AM   #6
GroundUrMast
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Thanks for the model numbers, for whatever reason, I was thinking you had a 4-bay antenna, not the 8-bay. In terms of noise performance, the PA-18 is better than any other consumer grade preamp.

If you're not willing to replace the CM4228, then one of the H-VHF 10 element Yagis could be combined via a UVSJ. The goal would be to get CH-9 & CH-11.

I would try a long UHF Yagi as a replacement for the CM4228 on the basis that panel antennas do not always get 'illuminated' equally.... ie. in many situations, some elements can be in 'hot' spots while one or more elements are in 'dead' zones. (Discussed here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/32bay.html) There has also been quite a bit of discussion and variety of opinion re. the fairly recent changes to the CM4228. http://antennahacks.com/Comparisons/..._CM4228Old.htm

Adding a dissimilar UHF or combo antenna to the CM4228 is going to make the two 'fight' each other, which will give you less, not more. (Though combining an identical CM4228 might get you another 1 or 2 dB gain if done correctly. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/16bay.html http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=1024)

From scratch, my recipe would be the 91XG with it's own PA-18. An Antennacraft Y10713 with it's own PA-18. A UVSJ down stream of the power insertion blocks for the preamps. Then splitter and / or distribution amp as indicated by the number of TVs and length of runs. I would also be using a guyed push-up mast or better.

http://www.3starinc.com/telescoping_masts.html
http://www.antennacraft.net/Antennas/AntennasVHF.html
http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...V_Antenna.html
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Combiners&sku=

Finally, if you're blocked by trees, you've got quite a bit of challenge. KING is predicted to arrive at my location with an 'in the air NM' of over +70 dB... wind in the Douglas Fir limbs will still cause signal to breakup.

Last edited by GroundUrMast; 15-Aug-2012 at 6:27 AM. Reason: Links, format... grammar
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Old 16-Aug-2012, 7:36 AM   #7
RoyTV
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My biggest concern is I get zero indication of any signal from channels 4 5 7 9 and 11. It is not 2 bars showing with no digital picture, it is like they don't even exist.

I also don't want to buy another antenna just to get the same results and be screwed out of the cost of both antennas because I have to pay Dish or DirecTV to get the major networks anyway.

So why can I not get even a blip of signal for channels 4, 5, 7, 9, or 11, yet ION FOX KUNS and the bible nazi network all come in as if they are broadcast from my basement? Shouldn't I be getting at least some signal on these channels? (I get that these are not the actual UHF channels)

I am in the middle of a flat open couple acres. I do have the antenna pointed towards treeline but it is a quarter mile away. And I am running the Antenna to a single TV tuner.

I already missed the Olympics, if I start missing Seahawks games too I'm gonna get really bummed.

Last edited by RoyTV; 16-Aug-2012 at 7:43 AM.
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Old 20-Aug-2012, 12:20 AM   #8
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Anyone? Maybe someone from this area of WA that receive signal from the Seattle towers can chime in with how they did it?

This Antenna I have is rated more than high enough to receive signal from 40 miles away. My Pre-Amp is apparently the best at something on the market. Whatever that means.

All the other stations for 60+ miles in any direction work just fine. Like they are streaming over super high speed internet. Even when it rains hard and the wind blows the antenna all over the place.

But I get nothing from 4, 5 7, 9, and 11. I need a solution that reflects this. I need a solution that is specifically designed to pick up highly scattered signal.

And I don't have disposable income to burn on making it happen. As I mentioned in the first post I have an old parabolic from direct TV I can modify if need be.

And to be clear the goal is to overcome the diffraction if that is even possible.
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Old 23-Aug-2012, 4:12 AM   #9
rabbit73
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Hello RoyTV:

Hunting for channels that were missed during a tuner scan can be very frustrating. If a tuner is able to pick up a channel, then many TVs give a lot of useful information that can help with antenna aim, location, and comparisons. My SONY KDL22L5000 gives signal strength, errors, and SNR.

But, when the tuner is not able to pick up a channel, none of that information is available; you don't even know if the transmitter is active.

The terrain between you and your missing stations is very challenging; for example KING-DT:



On the other forum, member retiredengineer asked me how to hunt for and measure missing channels. I told him that it is possible to find and measure channels that were missed during a scan, but they might not be picked up by the tuner because of poor signal quality (high BER) from multipath reflections or low SNR. He said that for now it would be sufficient to find them and measure their strength with the emphasis on the pilot signal at the low end of the channel.

A spectrum analyzer would be an ideal tool, but they are expensive and hard to borrow. I developed a measurement technique that uses a signal level meter (SLM) and the details are in four posts on the other forum; the last post is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the...#post_22105317 #14972

The meters that I used were a Sadelco 719E that I bought when I retired in 1988, and a DisplayMax 800 that my wife gave to me when digital TV came along. The 719E was designed for analog signals, but it is useful for digital signals.



I used CH42 as an example of a missing channel:



The signal measures -14.5 dBmV, which is equivalent to -63.3 dBm. Most tuners can decode a signal stronger than -84 dBm, but this signal could not be decoded because of poor signal quality.

I tried another location for the antenna with this result that could be decoded by the tuner:



Notice that the top of the signal is flatter, and the pilot is shown at the low end of the channel.

A used DisplayMax 800 costs about as much as a 32-inch flat panel TV. Look for a meter in good condition that can be returned. Don't bid any more than you can afford to lose if it can't be returned. A used meter, like the 719D seen below, can be found for $50. Make sure that it can do VHF and UHF; a meter marked VS does VHF and superband, but not UHF. You don't need both meters as I used; either one would help you.



I am retired, so I understand your need to keep expenses down. I think you are going to need to hunt for your missing channels using a method like I have described. You will probably need a high gain VHF-high antenna for real channels 9 and 11 as suggested earlier.

A suggestion: When you use virtual channel numbers they should be in decimal form like 22.1 and 9.1 to keep them from being confused with real channel numbers. The TV displays virtual numbers, but when you are hunting for channels or selecting an antenna you should use the real channel numbers like 11 and 9.

Good luck with your hunting and let us know how you do.

Best regards,
rabbit
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Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Aug-2012 at 1:54 AM.
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Old 23-Aug-2012, 6:04 AM   #10
GroundUrMast
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@rabbit73, welcome and thanks for contributing here. I envy you a bit... access to quality instruments is a huge benefit. For those who can't afford or simply can't justify the expense of a calibrated signal level meter, the SiliconDust HDHR may be a viable option. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820. The more expensive ($300 list) HDHR-tech offers calibrated level and digital specific diagnostic measurement capabilities.

Because the HDHR accepts manual tuning, it lends itself to 'signal hunting' application as you've suggested in your post.

Last edited by GroundUrMast; 23-Aug-2012 at 6:06 AM.
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Old 24-Aug-2012, 1:29 AM   #11
rabbit73
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GroundUrMast:

Thank you for the warm welcome and the information about the SiliconDust HDHR as an alternate method for channel hunting. Your setup sounds impressive and just right for your needs.

I must confess that I am not too fond of computers, and only tolerate them for what they enable me to do. I have tended to shy away from measurement solutions that involve computers when a battery operated meter will do the job, but I might try the HDHR or a USB stick like the Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-950Q with TSReader software to see what I'm missing.

Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Aug-2012 at 1:41 AM.
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Old 24-Aug-2012, 2:18 AM   #12
rabbit73
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RoyTV:

Quote:
Anyone? Maybe someone from this area of WA that receive signal from the Seattle towers can chime in with how they did it?
You could try asking your question on the Seattle, WA - OTA Reception thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/254620/seattle-wa-ota

You could also ask moderator Fringe Reception on the DTV USA Forum. His username before he became moderator was Jim in Seattle and he knows a lot about reception in your area.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Aug-2012 at 2:26 AM.
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