Toledo OH reception & Channel Master 7777/7778 preamp question

[Blackbeen]

Originally Posted by ADTech

The DB4e reflector remains as-is. The suggestion regarding the C2 VHF kit involves using that kit for parts and mounting those key parts to the DB4e. It's a bit of a DIY "hack" or an "off-label" usage that brings modest VHF performance to the DB4e.

I still don't really see a need for an amplifier unless you are specifically trying to get Detroit stations.

One of the main reasons for chimney mounting IS to get Detroit stations, I ordered the C2 VHF kit & CPA-19 Preamp with the intent of running a separate coax for, I suppose if worst comes to worst I could run the power cable though the window edge with a flat cable to avoid boring another hole in the brick wall but I'll see what the installer suggests.
I hope that modest VHF performance is worth the 30 bucks, I thought the same money could have just about covered the cost of a decent separate VHF antenna but I didn't want to complicate matters with yet another separate cable run into my Apt + since I've installed the FM trap 11 & 13 (though not 100%) have been pretty stable even in the present position here as the UHF ones have been really problematic, even 30 which there absolutely is no excuse for.

[Blackbeen]

Installing the C2 VHF kit wasn't the 5 minute job I expected, took about an hour & a half in my pre-caffeinated morning state. lol, the balun boot mount didn't space too well with the holes on the DB4e backbone, spacing just close enough to hold the tip of the boot, I ended up screwing the FM trap onto the backbone as well, I was hoping to install the preamp but it was dark (I work 3rd & started this at 8:50PM) so I figured I would install it after work in the morning. I didn't notice much change in reception really but I suppose I will have to wait for the roof mount on Wednesday to tell for sure.

[Blackbeen]

Post CPA-19 install in present antenna location, very little change, channel 7 (Detroit) seemed a bit more stable, 4 pixelation dropouts in an hour during daytime viewing but its hard to tell, it may just be a stable day. Nighttime, about the same as usual, again, but no ION & 4 (Detroit) is detected but unstable at about 9PM, so far definitely not worth the 60 bucks + I had to open up the plastic head before mounting to tighten one of the screws mounting the amp to the head that was externally loose (quality control anyone?) I didn't even bother to hook up the attenuator, I don't think its needed.
The rotor seems ok but I was afraid it was DOA when it failed to test synchronize, it ended up that one of the included batteries was dead, first time this has happened in many years of buying electronics (more quality control anyone???) + the command sticker for the back of the remote was near impossible remove from the adhesive sheet, I nearly had to rip the paper in half to get it off, but at least the rotor itself seems to be in good working order. I will find out tomorrow if the overall $500 investment was worth it when all is up on the roof. I'm just really worried that at some point the preamp will blow costing me (at least) a $100 for a service call, I kinda though that if the preamp was off (unplugged/failed) that the signal would just go through but just not amped but I see this is not the case & if this happens I receive nothing.

[Blackbeen]

Even though the installation was a nightmare see: http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...87&postcount=4 Reception with the antenna up top, even though much lower than I wished, has vastly improved. I had doubts regarding the accuracy of my (compass free) eyeball pointing of the antenna/rotor due north but setting the rotor to the TV fool magnetic compass points seem REALLY spot on. At night I can reach the Cleveland channels that are far out of range & during the day many Detroit ones are solidly received. Oddly the 2 channels that are shaky (for the most part) are the 2 strongest ones 7 (WXYZ) & 4 (WDIV), I see the Adjacent channel warning, which I assume is 2.1 (7 real) (WJBK) but this channel is very low power & I didn't honestly expect to receive it at all, but now is being received very strongly, even (sometimes) during the day. I don't know it there is anything I can do about it & this is mostly a concern as the sub channel 4.2 (THIS TV) is one of my favorites. Lucky during my 3rd shift early AM viewing prime time so far this is MUCH less an issue as you would expect, I was able the to watch several hours of THIS TV programming last night w/o a glitch but this was only the first full night of viewing so I hope it wasn't a fluke. I tried using the attenuator thinking that since 7 (WXYZ) & 4 (WDIV) are so high power & now are being pulled in stronger on the roof that they might be over driving but it didn't help.
The antenna is not grounded so I'm thinking of using the: http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-TLP...e+protector+tv I checked outlets and (most) of them are properly grounded so I hope this will resolve.

[GroundUrMast]

Post CPA-19 install in present antenna location, very little change...

Thanks, once again, anecdotal evidence that amplifiers are not a substitute for a correctly spec'd and installed antenna.

Re. grounding, My stock answer is, Grounding the mast and coax shield are prudent and relatively inexpensive steps that limit the buildup of static-electricity which can damage the tuner. When done correctly, grounding can also reduce the risk caused by a nearby lighting strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901

Grounding in a basic system is a two step process:

1) Connect a #10 gauge copper wire to the antenna mast. A bronze ground clamp such as the Halex #36020 is well suited for this application. Run the wire directly to the electrical service ground. Avoid sharp bends in the wire. (If the ground wire between the service panel and ground rod is accessible, an Intersystem Bonding Termination devise can be placed onto the ground wire without cutting or disconnecting it. This provides a means to connect the #10 mast ground wire to the existing ground wire close to the ground rod outside the building. If possible, avoid running the new ground wire inside the building, energy from static or electrical storms is best directed to ground before it has any path into the building. The mast ground wire can be bare or insulated, your choice.)

2) Run the coax from the antenna to a location close to the electrical service ground. Install a ground block and with another peice of #10 wire, connect it to the electrical service ground at the same point you connected the mast ground.

I don't recommend short-cuts such as driving a new ground rod that is not connected to the existing electrical service ground. An isolated ground rod often has a high resistance that provides very limited ground connection. The goal is to connect to the same ground system that protects the rest of the home.

Surge protectors located inside outlet strips at the TV, computer or similar devises are worth consideration. A surge protector with a high joule rating is able to absorb more fault energy than a unit with a lower joule rating. Some surge protection units include phone jacks and F-connectors to enable protection of a phone line, coax cable and the power cable(s). However, in the case of an outdoor mounted antenna, this type of protection should not be considered a 'first-line of defense'.

In your situation, I can only encourage you to 'do the best you can'.

[Electron]

Early on in this question askers post I recommended the HD7000R aimed at 100 degree magnetic compass.

[Blackbeen]

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

Thanks, once again, anecdotal evidence that amplifiers are not a substitute for a correctly spec'd and installed antenna.

Re. grounding, my stock answer is:

Grounding the mast and coax shield are prudent and relatively inexpensive steps that limit the buildup of static-electricity which can damage the tuner. When done correctly, grounding can also reduce the risk caused by a nearby lighting strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901

Grounding in a basic system is a two step process:

1) Connect a #10 gauge copper wire to the antenna mast. A bronze ground clamp such as the Halex #36020 is well suited for this application. Run the wire directly to the electrical service ground. Avoid sharp bends in the wire. (Often you can use a 'split-bolt' electrical connector to clamp the #10 wire to the existing ground wire close to the ground rod outside the building. If possible, avoid running the new ground wire inside the building, energy from static or electrical storms is best directed to ground before it has any path into the building. The wire can be bare or insulated, your choice.)

2) Run the coax from the antenna to a location close to the electrical service ground. Install a ground block and with another peice of #10 wire, connect it to the electrical service ground at the same point you connected the mast ground.

I don't recommend short-cuts such as driving a new ground rod that is not connected to the existing electrical service ground. An isolated ground rod often has a high resistance that provides very limited ground connection. The goal is to connect to the same ground system that protects the rest of the home.

Surge protectors located inside outlet strips at the TV, computer or similar devises are worth consideration. A surge protector with a high joule rating is able to absorb more fault energy than a unit with a lower joule rating. Some surge protection units include phone jacks and F-connectors to enable protection of a phone line, coax cable and the power cable(s). However, in the case of an outdoor mounted antenna, this type of protection should not be considered a 'first-line of defense'.

In your situation, I can only encourage you to 'do the best you can'.

Yeah, I mostly purchased the preamp due to the longer run to the roof, that ideally would have been longer if it was installed the way I wished, but decided to test on the wall beforehand just to be able to compare. I wish I had the ability to get on the roof to be able to test the difference with the preamp on/off but I don't. Suffice to say its working well aside from the channel 4 issue. I am reaching channels at night that a far out of range, I scanned 180-90 magnetic last night, a direction that was not obtainable on the wall, & was receiving very good feeds of Dayton channels, hard to tell how much the preamp has to do with this.
Good grounding tips, I really wish the installer would have been competent enough to have done this rather than the slop job he preformed, as a tenant I feel that doing this in my inexperience would be stepping over the line, if I owned the building going DIY would be more acceptable, but as is I might opt for this: http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-HT8.../dp/B000MOVIO6
though its rather pricey especially give recent hits to my pocketbook.
Ah well, this gave me a good reason to write a long report to the BBB.

[Blackbeen]

Originally Posted by Electron

Early on in this question askers post I recommended the HD7000R aimed at 100 degree magnetic compass.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my present situation, I decided against a separate VHF antenna in favor of the VHF add on kit in order to prevent the necessity for third cable run that would have forced me to: a) make a whole new hole in the wall, that I'm sure the installers would have charged me a arm & a leg for, or b) do a sloppy flat cable run around the window edge.
I think that ultimately this was a good decision as just about all Toledo channels are now stable even in the 27 degree Detroit favoring position.
Presently the only major issue I have is with Detroit channel 4 (WDIV) & to a lessor degree 7 (WXYZ) but I don't know if there is a solution for this.

[GroundUrMast]

I may have sounded as if I was speaking against the preamp in general. Please be assured that I'm agreeing with your application, overcoming cable loss.

It's been my observation that amplifiers are often erroneously expected to act as a substitute for the correct antenna and its installation.

WDIV (real CH-45) may be having trouble due to adjacent channel interference from WUPW (real CH-46). If that's true, a more directional antenna might solve the problem.

WXYZ (real CH-41) has no such issue but is distant and below your horizon. Antenna elevation / location would be a next step to try.

Regardless, the DB4e is a far superior choice of antenna for going after the distant Detroit signals. The HD7000 would not have the UHF gain needed.

It sounds like you've done better than most folks in a landlord/tenant relationship.

Thanks for the reports.

[rabbit73]

Originally Posted by Blackbeen

I got an ad Solid Signal for the Televes DigiNova Boss, seemed kinda interesting as a possible quick fix, I have a J-mount outside the northbound window of my 3rd floor apt that I used to use with the DB4e antenna before I chimney mounted it, its rather expensive though given I plan on doing it up right with a Winegard HD8200U on a 50' tower when I move into a house, but I'm really missing my Detroit channels.

That antenna is presently on sale, but whether it would help with your Detroit channels is unknown. Any preamp needed for Detroit signals would probably be overloaded by your strong local signals.

Here is an active link for your tvfool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...513435d523b966

[Blackbeen]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

That antenna is presently on sale, but whether it would help with your Detroit channels is unknown.

Looking back at my original inclination 4 years ago to leave the pre-amp off I really wish I would have went with that, at the time I didn't have time to test reception with it on & off due to the hellish installation nightmare & limited time to access the roof. I did have 3+ years of 40-65 channels reception before it went bad though.
Right now I have 3 choices as I see it:

1) Put up with the sometimes intermittent local 20 channels I can currently receive until I move, which could be the end of the year depending on the housing market.

2) Rent a ladder & replace or remove the preamp at a cost of a minimum of 75$ which I would have to do again as soon as I move entailing double cost which I think is kind of a waste.

3) Buy another antenna for wall J-mount to get me by until I move. I've also been considering the Televes DAT-790 HD
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...source=inhouse
which is now on sale for around 50$ (25$ less than the DigiNova Boss, though lacking the VHF range, but in this area there a very few VHF channels so that loss would be minimal). I wish I could remember the reception limitations of the J-mount location but my memory is foggy at this point.

I'm leaning toward option 3 as I could quite possibly use the Televes with good results wherever I end up moving to, I'll have to sleep on it.

I also forgot to add, there is a cell phone tower very close to the Detroit point so I'm curious if this LTE Filter might improve reception I wasn't at all aware of cell tower interference prior to reading about this filter.

[rabbit73]

I like option 3 also; it would give you a chance to try SOMETHING to satisfy your curiosity without being reminded of the incompetent installer, or putting you at greater physical risk.

I also forgot to add, there is a cell phone tower very close to the Detroit point so I'm curious if this LTE Filter might improve reception I wasn't at all aware of cell tower interference prior to reading about this filter.

This will become a more common problem as the cell transmitters move into the frequencies previously used by the TV transmitters above CH51 and given to commercial interests by the FCC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies

This has become a problem in England; you will see filters available there, but they are rare here. Antennas Direct is a harbinger; they added the LTE filter to the Juice, but didn't have enough room left in the housing to also include an FM filter.

The attachment has the curve of the Radio Shack LTE filter that was done by ADTech IIRC.

http://forums.wtfda.org/showthread.p...-thru-61-issue

[ADTech]

The Juice never had an FM filter. Also, the latest version of the Juice's filter is now a "cellular filter", it cuts in later than did the ones in the first production run as they cut in a bit too early and there was some affect on the upper UHF channels. The filter is no longer mentioned in the marketing, it will disappear from the packaging the next production run.

FWIW, I've yet to personally see a single instance of reception issues specifically attributable to cell and 4G service. I suspect the UK folks are being might conservative.

Also, the filtering in the Televes is going to be relatively useless for North American systems, it was designed and manufactured for the Euro market.

The RS filter is NLA although you might fined it on ebay or in-store on closeout.

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the filter clarification; I edited my previous post.

Is there any chance that the external AD FM filter can be modified for more attenuation at the high end of the FM band now that the RS and MCM FM filters and HLSJs (which can be used as FM filters) are becoming hard to find?

[shoman94]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

Is there any chance that the external AD FM filter can be modified for more attenuation at the high end of the FM band now that the RS and MCM FM filters and HLSJs (which can be used as FM filters) are becoming hard to find?

I recently installed this HLSJ purchased from amazon LINK

I could not find spec sheets. Maybe @ADTech can test one?

[rabbit73]

I couldn't find the specs either for the Cabletronix FMTVS. It isn't a HLSJ or FM trap/filter, but a TV/FM separator. It might be possible to use the TV section as an FM filter, but I would want to know the specs first. I seem to remember that the FM rejection of the TV section isn't quite as good as an FM filter or HLSJ.

ADTech has measured HLSJs:

[shoman94]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

I couldn't find the specs either for the Cabletronix FMTVS. It isn't a HLSJ or FM trap/filter, but a TV/FM separator. It might be possible to use the TV section as an FM filter, but I would want to know the specs first. I seem to remember that the FM rejection of the TV section isn't quite as good as an FM filter or HLSJ.

ADTech has measured HLSJs:

Sorry I miss named it. I have installed it and it didn't effect any of my vhf stations in comparison to having 2 RadioShack filters installed. I do think it increased my signal slightly.
I would love to see specs for it also.

[ADTech]

Is there any chance that the external AD FM filter can be modified for more attenuation at the high end of the FM band now that the RS and MCM FM filters and HLSJs (which can be used as FM filters) are becoming hard to find?

No. I expect the FM filter to be discontinued when current stock runs out if we don't liquidate it sooner. It's such a low volume mover that we've probably paid for them several times in warehousing fees since we last bought any several years ago. Management has been aggressively pruning money-loosing SKUs from our product line for the last year. We probably give more of them away to customers who are having issues than we sell.

I'd caution you not to extrapolate the test results from a single item sample to the larger body of stock. The FM filters we carry are all over the map when it comes to their tuning, they're simply inexpensive devices manufactured and shipped with minimal QC. Usually, if someone has a specific frequency that needs attention, I can hand-select a pre-tested filter out of my desk drawer that matches most requirements.

[rabbit73]

I'd caution you not to extrapolate the test results from a single item sample to the larger body of stock.

Understood

I expect the FM filter to be discontinued when current stock runs out

Sorry to hear that.

AD is one of the last sources for FM filters, and HLSJs and UVSJs are in short supply.

If a poster who has bought an Antennas Direct antenna and has VHF-High channels to receive but has FM signals in the +10 dBm range (which I've seen) what will you tell him?

What will I tell him?

Is there no corporate responsibility to help him just because he lives too close to an FM transmitter?

Management has been aggressively pruning money-loosing SKUs from our product line for the last year.

I appreciate the fact that the final decision isn't yours, but I hate to see an AD customer twisting in the wind.

[ADTech]

Is there no corporate responsibility to help him just because he lives too close to an FM transmitter?

Perhaps that question should best be asked of the TV set manufacturers who leave their tuners wide open to interfering frequencies so they can save a few cents per TV. They could easily address the selectivity of out-of-band signals right in the tuner.

I hate to see an AD customer twisting in the wind.

I beg to differ.

We're not leaving them to twist in the wind at all. The company is run, first and foremost, to be prosperous and to thrive. If that means pruning must be done, it will. Hey, I grew up on a farm. I understand pruning, whether it be a crop, a tree, a vine, or a herd of livestock. If conditions outside our reasonable control cause reception to fail, the antenna gets returned and the customer moves on. We can't fix every problem that arises.

Anyone whose livelihood depends on the business' prosperity will see the necessity of that mind set. For anyone to expect our company (or any other for that matter) of needing to be all things for everyone is not taking a reasonable approach to expectations. This industry is full of names that are no longer in business or failed and had to be "rescued". Radio Shack is the most recent, Channel Master went bankrupt back in '03. Even our competitor, Winegard (whose business fortunes are private), has been aggressively trimming their product offerings over the last several years.

Given our (still, sort of) free market system, if there's a need out there that can be filled at a profit, some entrepreneur will recognize the niche and fill it. Care to go into business selling low-volumes of traps, diplexers, and the like for low margins?

Okay, off my soapbox...

Cheers!