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Old 7-Apr-2012, 4:19 PM   #1
OberGeiss
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Angry Specific quandry.....WLIW from NJ.....have met end of my expertise.....

Hi All, Mike at Solid Signal turned me on this site. Thanks in advance for all input (pun intended). I am a lifelong tinkerer and can't resist an electronics challenge....so here we go with pertinent data:


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...267ec0748f8974

Channel Master 3042 amplifier (22db gain, 54-862 mHz, 2 output with return path)
Toner XGVS-3B, balanced 3 way splitter
Antennae Direct 91XG (Yagi configuration), rooftop, approx 24' height, asphalt shingled roof

Location=40.69494,-74.28257

LG, two HD ready sets
Dynex set, but has lackluster tuner thus utilizing outboard Dish Network HD tuner

1st concern: cabling from the yagi is RG-59 75 ohm, with a run of approx 65'.
Cabling from where it all meets in the home is a mixture of RG 59 and Perfect Vision brand RG-6 (to the Dynex). Should I immediately upgrade so that all cabling is RG-6?

2nd concern: should I swap out this Channel Master amp for some other amp or perhaps switch to a pre amp?

Re: WLIW, occasionally I will get a momentary signal strength indication of about 50%, then it seems as if the Dish Network tuner rejects the signal completely. The LG sets (both cabled from the splitter with RG-59) do not even discriminate WLIW, 21.1, et seq, and I have to enter manually. Still no WLIW reception on either LG set.

Also, have tried a straight run from antenna to the Dynex with outboard Dish Network tuner and that does not yield a signal either. Currently, I am using single output with a 2' run of RG-6 to the Toner splitter, then to the three sets as described above.

I would give my right *&^ to get WLIW, in a manner of speaking....any suggestions???? Thanks very much in advance and I appreciate your fielding the question.

VTY,
David aka OberGeiss of Union NJ
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Old 7-Apr-2012, 4:48 PM   #2
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If the connectors are in good condition, replacing the RG-59 with RG-6 will buy you 1-2 dB per 100'... which is not a great amount. Still, if there is any reason to suspect the integrity of a piece of coax, replace it.

Not all installations need an amplifier. If you did not care about WLIW, and were satisfied with the long list of signals from NYC, I'd advise against an amplifier all together. For installations that need amplification, very close to zero need more than one amplifier.

In this case, the best chance of seeing WLIW would be with the 91XG equipped with an Antennas Direct CPA-19. Remove all other amplification from the system. The long list of powerful signals does not make me hopeful though. Any amount of inter-modulation-distortion in the amp or tuner will bury the weak WLIW signal.
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Old 7-Apr-2012, 4:52 PM   #3
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Also, insert an FM trap between the antenna and preamp.
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Old 7-Apr-2012, 5:03 PM   #4
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Thanks so much. I see that the CPA-19 is a pre-amp, one mast mounted piece of hardware and then power supply and likely addn hardware and power supply inside. I see also that it is described as appropriate for Clearstream products...I happen to have a C-2 (that's what I replaced with the Yagi style).

Which brings me to another possibility.....any decent chance of receiving the PBS affiliate in Philadephia WHYY, either via rotator or separate antenna (with combiner or some such...)

Again, many thanks.

David
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Old 7-Apr-2012, 5:08 PM   #5
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Thanks, I have lots of FM stations nearby..that did not even occur to me.
This trap is variable...will I need some additional expertise to modulate correctly or should I search for a static fm trap?
Winegard FT7600

Very great of you to help me!!!!!!
David
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 1:36 AM   #6
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I've read some addn threads and couple of other things come to mind for my application here in Union NJ.

The mast is mounted to the chimney at the west end of the home.
The power from the pole comes in to this end of the home as well, with the entry point near the peak where the chimney is located.

Also tacked underneath the roof joists is metal backed foil insulation, not fiberglass but approx 1/4" laminated metal foil with a thin insulating layer in between.

Mounting the mast to the east end of the home would distance the antenna from incoming power lines and, since most of signal comes from the east, could this not abate any problem generated by the metal foil tacked to the underside of the roof joists.

The home is also clad in alum siding.

Thanks.

David
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 8:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OberGeiss View Post
Thanks so much. I see that the CPA-19 is a pre-amp, one mast mounted piece of hardware and then power supply and likely addn hardware and power supply inside. I see also that it is described as appropriate for Clearstream products...I happen to have a C-2 (that's what I replaced with the Yagi style).

Which brings me to another possibility.....any decent chance of receiving the PBS affiliate in Philadephia WHYY, either via rotator or separate antenna (with combiner or some such...)

Again, many thanks.

David
I've recommended the CPA-19 because it has the ability to handle strong signal levels better than most other preamplifiers. By placing the amplifier at the antenna, you avoid the signal degradation of the down-lead so you'll get higher quality signal into and out of the preamp when compared to a DA. The CPA-19 also adds one or two dB less noise than it's best competitor. While I'm hopeful, I can't guaranty replacing the CM3042 with the CPA-19 will make WLIW reliable. It's the best idea I've got at this point.

WHYY will take some doing. I'm thinking a stagger-stacked pair of Antennacraft Y-10713 high-VHF Yagis coupled with 450Ω twin-lead combining/matching harness and a CPA-19 preamp. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=1024
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 8:50 AM   #8
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I'd use a fixed FM trap.

The metal in your roof is a source of reflection but if you are mounted 5' or more above the roof, it's not going to de-tune the antenna enough to be of great concern. You can experiment with mounting height (4" to 6" increments) to see if there is a 'sweet spot'. Higher is usually better.

You attic on the other hand is a poor location for an antenna.
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 8:50 AM   #9
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Tv antennas and Tv reception

For a one antenna solution. I recommend a Winegard HD7084 All channel antenna aimed at about 50 degree magnetic compass. All channel antennas receive , VHF low band channels 2 thru 6 , VHF high band channels 7 thru 13 , UHF channels 14 thru 69. There is one tv station that is transmitting on digital channel 2. WKOB channel 2 that has this digital sub channel , http://www.hottvchannel.com.

Last edited by Electron; 13-Apr-2012 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 9:22 AM   #10
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Tv antennas and Tv reception

If the HD7084P does not do the complete job of reception , I think it will. Then use the 91XG with a Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp aimed at about 94 degree magnetic compass as a dedicated antenna for the reception of only WLIW-DT (UHF Tv Channel 21) PBS. Contact , http://www.tinlee.com for a UHF 21 band pass filter that allows UHF channel 21 to pass and rejects all other channels. Separate coax wiring will be used for 91XG antenna system and HD7084P antenna system. The two antenna systems will not be connected together on to one coax. The two separate antenna systems coaxes will go to the location/s of the tv or tv's. A Radio Shack #15-1968 remote control A/B antenna switch will be at location of the tv/s , the separate coaxes will connect to the inputs of the A/B switch and output of the A/B switch will connect to the tv. That means a separate splitter and coax wiring. Or if it is only one tv for the WLIW option then run the one coax of the 91XG preamp antenna system to the one tv and use a A/B switch at the one tv.

Last edited by Electron; 13-Apr-2012 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 12:00 PM   #11
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Many thanks Gents!
Great options.
If I elect to utilize the existing Yagi (with CPA-19 and Tinlee 21 band pass filter) for WLIW with appropriate A/B switching, is there a sound reason to mount that array to one end of the house and have an all channel antenna (HD7084P) mounted at the other, or should they simply be stacked on the same mast?

I think I'll be placing an order for addn parts Monday AM!!!!!
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 12:10 PM   #12
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Thanks Gents...great thinking and appreciate your expertise!

I'm wondering if the existing Yagi array (with new additions of CPA-19 and band pass filter) ought to be mounted to one end of home and an all channel array (Winegard as recommended) should be mounted at the other end of the home.

Having the Yagi at one end of the home (East) will make a significantly shorter cable run. Or can the two separate arrays (separately cabled all the way to the A/B) simply be stacked on the same mast?

I confess knowing nothing about the high VHF antenna suggested by GroundUrMast, and plan to look into carefully this AM before deciding upon a plan.

Again, many thanks.

David

PS...I assume that using the band pass filter for WLIW 21 obviates the need for amy FM trap?

Last edited by OberGeiss; 8-Apr-2012 at 1:28 PM.
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 5:43 PM   #13
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Tv antennas and Tv reception

Why would mounting the 91XG on the east end of the house make for a shorter cable run?? Where does the coax enter the house on the east end or west end?? And is the 91XG mounted above the roof now?? All antenna/s must be mounted above the roof not in the attic. The FM Radio Trap is to reduce or eleminate possible FM interference , the UHF channel 21 band pass is is to allow the reception of UHF channel 21 only , keeps All other signals from interfering with UHF 21.
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 5:54 PM   #14
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Yagi now set atop chimney west end and cable also enters west end (foundation).
If I set up the second antenna on the east end, I would drill a new opening for cable at the east end and that's closer to my current DA and balance splitter.

Plan now is to re-cable the Yagi with new RG-6 and connectors, using the specified pre amp.
If that does not improve WLIW, will add FM trap between ant and pre. If that does not work will try the band pass filter for 21. If that works, will add appropriate A/B switching and get all channel as addn array so I can grab that low VHF you pointed out together with everything else (but for 21 WLIW which would stay via the Yagi). Many thanks and I will def report back!!!!! Happy Easter.
David

Last edited by OberGeiss; 8-Apr-2012 at 6:00 PM.
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 6:03 PM   #15
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Well Ok good luck on the adventure.
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Old 8-Apr-2012, 9:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OberGeiss View Post
Yagi now set atop chimney west end and cable also enters west end (foundation).
If I set up the second antenna on the east end, I would drill a new opening for cable at the east end and that's closer to my current DA and balance splitter.

Plan now is to re-cable the Yagi with new RG-6 and connectors, using the specified pre amp.
If that does not improve WLIW, will add FM trap between ant and pre. If that does not work will try the band pass filter for 21. If that works, will add appropriate A/B switching and get all channel as addn array so I can grab that low VHF you pointed out together with everything else (but for 21 WLIW which would stay via the Yagi). Many thanks and I will def report back!!!!! Happy Easter.
David
Two antennas on a 10' mast would be a good option, but if you want to mount as you've described, that's fine too.

Your step by step approach is both logical and economical. If you opt for a CH-21 bandpass filter, the FM trap would be redundant though you could experiment with it left in the system. Regardless, either or both filters need to be ahead of the amplifier.

I agree with @Electron, a basic install in your situation calls for an all channel antenna. Your pursuit of WLIW and or WHYY make this more complex than some of your neighbors would consider... but I think you have a fair to good chance of getting one or both of the distant signals.

It sounds like you've decided to set the WHYY project aside for now.
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Old 13-Apr-2012, 12:12 AM   #17
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Wink Yes!!!!!!

Gentleman!
Well Solid Signal got me the parts and sure enough the CPA-19 and re-cabling has done it.......getting WLIW, and a few other new ones, clear as ever....signal strength per meter on the outboard Dish Network HD tuner is a solid 69.

The RG 59 had a few suspect spots as well so I understand how keeping an eye on cabling, and using good cable, is important.

So, here's the next question. Assume I add a strictly VHF (low and high).....can I combine it with the Yagi UHF/CPA-19 rig and, if so, what would be the optimal way to do that taking into account that I have a balanced Toner 3 way splitter just beyond the CPA-19 signal injector.

I never understood how a dedicated pre-ap differs from a DA......fun hobby and I seriously appreciate your incisive help!!!!

Best,
David

PS...one set I have not yet re-cabled....also an LG. The LG in the kitchen that has been re-cabled is fine with WLIW and everything else...but the living room LG (same vintage...a few years ago so tuners should be identical) is still cabled with the old RG-59, about a run of 20 feet from the splitter. Will this weekend re-cable that set as well with the Perfect Vision RG-6....if that does not do the trick will start looking at the splitter for problems.....

Last edited by OberGeiss; 13-Apr-2012 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 13-Apr-2012, 7:04 AM   #18
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The HD7084P is the one antenna solution.
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Old 13-Apr-2012, 11:05 AM   #19
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I'm concerned that swapping out the XG 91 for the HD7084P (pointed at 50 deg) might cause me to lose WLIW. Is combining an all VHF with my Yagi set up ill advised? Thank you!

Also, getting some occasional pixelation and drop out on WLIW...nothing substantial but wondering if I should still add an FM trap to my Yagi set up? In that the XG 91 is described as an UHF antenna only, would adding an FM trap serve a good purpose here?

Thanks,
David

Last edited by OberGeiss; 13-Apr-2012 at 7:57 PM.
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Old 20-Apr-2012, 2:07 PM   #20
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Low band/High Band VHF ant project?

Does anyone know of a source of plans for building one's own low/high VHF antenna.....I searched the forum and could not find anything. JUst toying with the idea of using a separate carbon fiber mast and some wiring and parts I have laying about........my idea is to have an integrated short mast and VHF ant. Any ideas as to where I might consult for some basic design parameters?
Thanks!
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