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Old 23-Aug-2017, 3:39 PM   #1
shovel99
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Question Help with reception Marietta GA 30068

Hi Guys,
Thanks in advance for both this incredible website resource and all of you who contribute to helping us newbies cut the cord!
Here is my location link, hopefully I got it right.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a4381253bfc9

I live in a NW suburb of Atlanta and have a lot of channels available to me, only 13-22 miles from most of the desired channels. My challenge is that our house is "in a hole", located at lowest point in our neighborhood with huge trees behind the house (creek back there) and then houses higher on the hill on the other side of the creek between us and the signals, most of which at 150-165 or so.

It is my starting goal to put the antenna in the attic. I took a stab and bought a CM 4228 and have it pointed roughly 156. Of the five TV's in my home, one upstairs near the TV and three on the main level below are "regular viewing". From what I have read, what might make sense is to use a preamp next to the antenna in the attic, use a 2 way splitter there and feed the primary bedroom tv direct out of the splitter... and run the other output to the basement (100 ft + -) Use a 4 out amplifier and feed the three TV's there with equal length approx 25 foot each lines.

I am open to suggestions regarding antenna, getting another one that better suits my situation is small change in eliminating cable charges. In my original test of the 4228 plugged directly into one of the TV's (this may have been in winter before leaves), I seem to recall getting almost every channel we wanted on this list except ION Real channel 31, which is like 180 degrees off most of the channels in the other direction. There is a huge hill on that side of the house also and lots of trees there, too. When I hooked the 100 foot lead (from preamp) to an unpowered 4 way splitter, there wasn't much at all. I have since learned that I need the powered splitter and have one on order.
There are a couple of channels in the VHF ranges that we will need: WANN 32 provides a guide for broadcast channels, a must have. From what I am reading, the 4228 is not the choice in this situation.

I am greatly looking forward to the group's advice!

Thanks, Paul
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Old 23-Aug-2017, 3:44 PM   #2
shovel99
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Question Additional details...

House is stick built, two layers of roof shingles. Direction of antenna at 160 degrees plus or minus no ducting or metal in the way. I have not experimented with different locations in the attic, but could move the antenna as much as 25 feet in one direction. The antenna is approx 25 feet from ground level at its location in the attic. I am trying to avoid going up an a steep roof 30 feet up, and or trying to find someone to do that. Searches for antenna installers have come up NADA to date. Thanks! Paul
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Old 24-Aug-2017, 5:06 PM   #3
JoeAZ
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Hi Paul,

The antenna you have is excellent for your situation.
Quite possibly, the TV Fool analysis may have overstated
the signals to your area. I would start over, using much
of the same equipment. Connect your antenna to ONE
TV via a 50 foot or less RG6 cable. What do you receive?
Open a window, second floor is possible, position your
antenna out the window with someone holding it. Connect
it to One television. What do you receive??? If both of
those do not provide a satisfactory signal for your stations,
then a roof mount might be a necessity. You are going to
need to experiment which takes time, patience and effort.
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Old 24-Aug-2017, 10:37 PM   #4
shovel99
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Smile Thanks Joe

I had a pretty successful antenna in the attic, 100 foot cable, no preamp, no amplified splitter, single TV test. Was before the leaves came out. Received all the channels desired with two of them pixelating. I will experiment when I receive the amplified splitter I have ordered. I am going to just go for broke as starters: install the Winegard LNA 200 boost, the splitter amp, antenna just where it is. I can try other attic locations to try to get signal from the one channel I want that I am not getting, the one at 180 degrees. Do you think adding a directional YAGI pointed at the difficult station, the CM4228 picking up the rest, joined into the Winegard LNA would be an alternative?

What are your thoughts on getting signal to the upstairs TV? Do I split off the antenna.. one line direct into the upstairs TV, one into winegard preamp, 100 feet coax to basement located splitter/amp, 25 foot coax to each of 3 TVs on main level from basement? Or antenna > winegard preamp> 100 ft coax to basement > splitter amp> 100 ft coax back up to 2nd floor TV, 25 foot coax to each of 3 TV's? Thanks for your help! Paul
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Old 24-Aug-2017, 11:01 PM   #5
JoeAZ
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The trees are most likely blocking your signals. Is there a way to
position the antenna in the attic or elsewhere where the trees
are less of a factor??? 100 feet of cable is awfully long. Can you
shorten the cable??? Are you using RG6 cable? I do not find any
VHF signal at 180 degrees. What are the call letters??? Virtually
all your signals are UHF. You do not need another antenna.
I would advise adding any other televisions until you have your
current situation resolved..... Hope this makes sense and is
helpful.
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Old 24-Aug-2017, 11:51 PM   #6
shovel99
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Smile

Thanks Joe, I wasn't very clear. ION is approx 180 from the rest of the cluster of channels... is at 340 degrees True. Can't move antenna far enough anywhere on my lot, let alone the attic or rooftop, to get away from tall trees either way. At most I might get 30 feet off that 100 feet by positioning antenna closer to the drop to the basement, relocating the splitter to a more central location which evens up the basement runs, drops them to the 25 feet. I inherited splitter location just inside the house in the basement near the cable TV input. Their signal is strong enough to eat all these long runs without issues.

I will follow up after receiving the amp and winging it.
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Old 4-Sep-2017, 1:34 AM   #7
shovel99
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Question Making progress... Copper vs. clad... Connectors? Max runs?

Hi guys, thanks again for great site and for the help you knowledgeable folks provide.

I have most of my system working: CM4228 pointed at 159 degrees magnetic, gets all channels I want except ION at 340 degrees over a mountain and through neighbor houses and trees. I have all three TVs on first floor getting excellent reception through this path: CM4228 >>> Winegard LNA200 >>> Ideal power passing 2 way splitter from Lowes >>> 100 foot coax with twist on Gold plated connectors >>> powered PCT 4 way distribution amp >>> 15 foot, 35 foot, 50 foot coax.

My upstairs room still a problem. I believe I have traced to new 25 foot cable pulled to attach to splitter and run to the TV. I did not bend the cable, but possibly pulled one of the connectors loose or intermittent when I attached a pulling string close to the factory installed connector from HD. I plan to try another from HD tomorrow and will run a 50 footer direct from splitter to TV to confirm it works before putting another 25 footer carefully in the wall. I have yet to find a satisfactory way to attach the connectors. Going to continue this in a minute because the system is going to time me out.

Last edited by shovel99; 4-Sep-2017 at 1:47 AM.
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Old 4-Sep-2017, 1:44 AM   #8
shovel99
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Question Continuing here....

I have used the gold plated twist on connectors on RG59 and then standard dimention RG6 for years with great results. Now the "monster" cable industry needs to sell us big fat cables, there is no longer a good way to attach connectors. Great to sell lots of pre made cables, I guess. The twist ons don't fit the oversized wires. I bought a Belden compression tool and a $56 box of Ideal compression connectors, get it home and find out that the hardest part of the process... pushing the damn connector onto the wire... is not performed by the tool, but rather some inhuman level brute force. What do any of you do to put these damn things on? It appears no one stocks them.

I was also stunned to learn that all the cable is now copper plated steel crap. I wondered why my stripper cutter said "not for steel". Why the hell would they make copper coated wire instead of real copper while for God's sake? CHEAP!.
Big box doesn't sell copper, and you cannot even find what the center lead is made of until you are reading the fine print at the store. It appears very few websites sell pure copper... it surely won't have the discontinuity problem caused by bending steel which is breaking the copper plating. Is it worth buying 500 feet when I need 25? How much signal and picture improvement can I expect if I replace all the coax in my system with real copper wire, assuming I can find a solution to putting on the connectors.

One last question: I am considering getting a second antenna, a yagi to point at 340 degrees and merging the signals with that antenna and the CM4228, ahead of the Winegard preamp. Will that work? Do I need another amp, and how would I configure this?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions,
shovel99
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Old 4-Sep-2017, 2:13 AM   #9
OTAFAN
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Help with reception Marietta GA 30068

Hi: Pure copper over copper clad is not as critical as one might think according to this article:

http://forums.solidsignal.com/conten...-coaxial-cable

I like pure copper too, but they don't even make our pennies out of it any longer Things ain't what they used to be. I hope the above helps.

Best holiday wishes,
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Old 4-Sep-2017, 2:28 AM   #10
OTAFAN
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Help with reception Marietta GA 30068

P.S. I see in your earlier above post that you're using a PCT 4 amp, so according to the article you may indeed need pure copper in your cable. Sorry I didn't catch that, shovel99.
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Old 4-Sep-2017, 2:47 AM   #11
OTAFAN
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Help with reception Marietta GA 30068

P.S.S. If you want or need pure copper center with your cable here is an affordable, readily available option:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DN7NQUC?psc=1

Take care shovel99
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Old 4-Sep-2017, 3:25 AM   #12
shovel99
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Smile Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAFAN View Post
P.S. I see in your earlier above post that you're using a PCT 4 amp, so according to the article you may indeed need pure copper in your cable. Sorry I didn't catch that, shovel99.
Thanks OTAFan.

Yes, looks like I should have copper for the attic to basement run... the power inserter for the Winegard LNA Boost 200 is in the basement.

What is a bit odd is that it is working reasonably well delivering signal down that 100 foot run. I do not know if it is copper. My current problem is the short run from the splitter just down from the LNA which is just under the antenna.

My next trick is to try to gang two antennas to pick up the one channel I am missing almost exactly 180 degrees. I can separate two identical CM4228's by a good 16 feet and maybe that will work without ghosting. What I am reading and learning is that this is a "game of chance". To save $60 or more per month, I will invest some capital.
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Old 4-Sep-2017, 4:23 AM   #13
OTAFAN
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Help with reception Marietta GA 30068

You're very welcome, shovel99.

There are others here on TV Fool that are much more technically adept at what you're attempting to do, that I'm hoping will chime in with advise.

I've learned much from TV Fool myself to help with my local issues, but I'm afraid all I can assist you with is the links I provided for your coax cable. I'm glad I was able to contribute those.

The very best Labor Day holiday to you and your TV viewing project
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Old 4-Sep-2017, 2:05 PM   #14
ADTech
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Comments regarding coax cable

Quote:
I bought a Belden compression tool and a $56 box of Ideal compression connectors, get it home and find out that the hardest part of the process... pushing the damn connector onto the wire..
That indicates you probably have QS cable but bought "regular" RG6 connectors. If you have to struggle to get the connector on, you have a mismatch.

Quote:
I was also stunned to learn that all the cable is now copper plated steel crap.
Not, by any means. The cheaper stuff at the big box stores is usually CCS. FWIW, solid copper core is only needed in rare situations, CCS works most of the time.
Quote:
. it surely won't have the discontinuity problem caused by bending steel which is breaking the copper plating.
That would be highly unlikely as copper is much more malleable than steel. The issue with exceeding the bend radius is that the dielectric gets deformed and the center conductor gets pushed closer to the shield. This can cause a frequency-specific "suck-out" that can kill a narrow band of frequencies.
Quote:
How much signal and picture improvement can I expect if I replace all the coax in my system with real copper wire, assuming I can find a solution to putting on the connectors.
Zero, unless you happen to repair a defect in the process. It sounds like you have a defect.
Quote:
I see in your earlier above post that you're using a PCT 4 amp, so according to the article you may indeed need pure copper in your cable.
There is no technical basis for such a need in all but extreme cases. If one has the needed data for the amp in use (current draw and minimum input voltage), it's power supply (output voltage and current parameters), and the technical data for the coax to be used (DC resistance of core and shield per unit length), it is not difficult to do a little math to determine the coax length at which CCS would no longer be suitable for use without swapping power supplies.
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Last edited by ADTech; 4-Sep-2017 at 2:08 PM.
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Old 5-Sep-2017, 5:36 PM   #15
shovel99
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Smile Thanks to All. Complete Victory being declared here, now!

Thanks ADTech for the information.

With what I surmised was a fault in the cable run and connections from the splitter downstream of the LNA 200 at the antenna in the attic to the master bedroom, I bought a 50 foot cable and connected direct from Antenna in attic, through the drop down stairs to the MBR TV set. BAM! TV picture with problems. This 8 year old (very expensive Panasonic when it was made with beautiful picture on cable and DVD) was the problem. Replaced it with a 28 inch Samsung and voila, problem solved.

By that time I had learned as ADTech stated that (1) there are oversized connectors made especially for Quad Shield or if you cannot get them, (2) you need to strip the outer layer of insulation off. The connectors then fit on reasonably easy.

So the last step of my installation was to flip my antenna 180 degrees, toward the last one weak station I was not getting with the antenna pointed exactly opposite direction toward a cluster of most of the other stations I needed from the City of Atlanta. BOOM! The front focus of theCM4228 was able to pull the station 31 miles away, over the hills and mountains between us, and the back lobe was sufficient to pull the stronger Atl stations. Some side channels were not affected as they were being pulled by the edge capability of the antenna.

Splitting the upstairs TV worked just as I had originally planned... there was enough signal from the Winegard LNA 200 to make the run to the distribution amp in the basement. The new antenna location in the attic... providing a clear path around a lot of high run HVAC ducting up there, had the added benefit of being 20 feet closer to the two story drop, reducing that line to 50 feet from 100 feet. In the basement, I was able to locate the distribution amp to remove 15 feet from each of two of three TV's.

The Belken PPC VT-200 connector installer I bought at Lowes for $30 is a very solid, professional unit that worked well once I knew to strip the extra layer of shielding off. The Ideal 92-650 F type compression connectors, also from Lowes, were very high quality, solid units. I believe these were designed for standard double insulated cable, and that Ideal makes a different connector specifically for quad shield if you can find them.

So in spite of my location next to a creek, down behind huge trees and houses in every direction, 13-17 miles from my primary cluster of channels and 31 miles from the hardest to reach, my setup gets them all! With a $35 per month subscription to the "base" 60 channel package from DirecTVnow.com, I have almost my entire package for which I am/was paying $100 per month.
I could not be happier, and as soon as my sweet TV Queen bride gets familiar with the source switching, we will commence to saving $65 per month.

Thanks again, TVfool.com and the folks here.

Shovel99
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Old 6-Sep-2017, 5:09 PM   #16
shovel99
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Question Hah, and 6 hours later it rained. Advice on two antenna solution?

Hi Gents,
Rained shortly after claiming victory which pixelated the hard to get station at 31 miles, 180 degrees from the stronger 13-17 mile stations. Stronger stations also pixelated because they were receiving only back wave from the CM4228.

Here is revised outline of the challenge: the CM4228, pointed directly at the hard to tune channel, was pixelating under heavy rain. So even buying another CM4228 to point at Ion at 340 degrees and paring it with the first CM4228 pointed at 160 degrees does not seem like a viable option.

Is there a more directional Yagi that I can point at the hard to get (by itself at 340 degrees)... and pair that with the CM4228 that does get the rest of them when pointed their way?

I do have a good bit of room in the Attic and can have these at least 16 feet apart. I want to exhaust the attic possibilities before trying to find a professional to install. One of the problems with professional installation on my steep roof, long fall, is what if there is a problem? How long are you going to keep them around while fiddling with direction? Added to aesthetics it is not the best solution. It would already be up on the roof of any of all the rest of my ranch houses by now.

Thanks for your continued help, and thoughts and prayers for all the folks crushed by Harvey and now staring at Irma in Florida.

shovel99
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Old 6-Sep-2017, 5:43 PM   #17
ADTech
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If the signal path was through trees and reception went faulty particularly when it rained, the problem is the trees. A different antenna is unlikely to change that.

What is likely needed, if available, is a signal path that is not through trees.
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Old 6-Sep-2017, 5:51 PM   #18
shovel99
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Talking Thanks. I will tell my neighbor ADTech told me to cut his trees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
If the signal path was through trees and reception went faulty particularly when it rained, the problem is the trees. A different antenna is unlikely to change that.

What is likely needed, if available, is a signal path that is not through trees.
Thanks for the advice. I do appreciate your honesty. However, realizing that it has a good chance of being a lost cause, I am willing to throw another $100 Hail Mary pass at another antenna to pair with the CM4228. Which Antennas Direct antenna wold that be, with high directionality, real channel 31, apparently UHF?

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Old 6-Sep-2017, 7:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Which Antennas Direct antenna wold that be, with high directionality, real channel 31, apparently UHF?
Given your stated budget and, considering the channel changes coming down the road when that ION station will move the UHF-16, the DB4e would offer your best chance.
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Old 11-Sep-2017, 4:21 PM   #20
shovel99
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Question Signal strength jumping from 5-8 to 0 and back?

Good afternoon gents for the east coasters,
While we are getting mild wind effects and light rain from IRMA right now, I am getting what seems an odd pattern of instantaneous "flickering" of signal on even my strongest stations where I do not normally have either pixelation or dropout. Bounced from 5-10 bars on some stations.... 3 to 8 on weaker stations, some pixelations on both. My antenna is the CM4228 in attic, directed at cluster of strongest closest stations, Preamp, splitter to upstairs TV... 50 foot run to 4x splitter amp in basement... 3 tv's. I am "in a hole" with large stand of trees between me and that pack of stations, up a hill with houses on it.
All of these stations are in the green on my fool report.
It just strikes me as very odd that the signal strengh "flckers" so fast.

I am awaiting the deliver of safety climbing harness

Thanks for your help.
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