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Old 20-Apr-2017, 11:36 PM   #21
OTAFAN
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Unhappy Rca ant751

Yeah, I think we're preaching to the choir here. And each time I've seen new advertisements of this antenna, RCA ups the receiving distance. On their website, it has always stated approximately 40 miles. Now it's up to 70 with the removal of some critical elements, no less! Well, my advise is to hang on to your original 751s or grab one if you see it before they replace them all with the "new and improved" 7511. But it will be interesting to see your comparisons with the new GE Indoor Attic Antenna and RCA 7511, rabbit73. I'm going to take a crap shoot and say the GE will equal or perhaps outperform the RCA 7511 by a small margin. How 'bout a wager???
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Old 20-Apr-2017, 11:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
I would be very interested in your testing results of the new GE Indoor Attic Antenna. Feedback on Amazon has been surprisingly good.
I have been having a lot of fun with it. At my present location an indoor antenna is necessary for OTA reception. We also have basic cable, but I love to play with antennas and make antenna measurements.

I started experimenting with antennas when I was 8; I'm now 84. I have built many ham and TV antennas, and am still fascinated by the magic.

The GE Attic Antenna 34792 comes requiring assembly; this video showed me what to expect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qYucg3JXzA

The signals are quite strong here, so I can get away with an indoor antenna on the ground floor, in spite of buildings and trees in the signal path. The GE antenna has more gain on UHF than on VHF-High; the UHF section is a yagi with a curved reflector, but it only has a folded dipole for VHF-High. As a result, although channel 13 is listed on my report almost as strong as the UHF signals, it is a lot weaker at the tuner because the antenna has less gain on VHF than UHF.

I have added an RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp to help 13, but I have found that the antenna location indoors is critical because of multipath reflections. Even though the signal might be strong enough, the tuner might not be able to decode it because it has reduced signal quality from multipath reflections.

Notes and photo of antenna added to screen shot of Sony Diagnostics Screen:



Attached Images
File Type: jpg My Report 3-2-2017 (2).jpg (320.9 KB, 876 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 21-Apr-2017 at 1:50 AM.
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Old 21-Apr-2017, 12:00 AM   #23
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Smile Rca ant751

I share your enthusiasm and fascination with OTA TV and radio as well. I don't have a tech background like you and ADTech, but I really enjoy the mysteries of what has turned into a hobby for me. That's why I was so thankful I came across TV Fool one day while surfing the web. And then receiving the helpful replies from you has been greatly appreciated, rabbit73. Thanks for the input on your new GE antenna. It will be interesting to see how it compares with the RCA7511 and how quickly others respond to it. In the meantime, I'm also looking at a couple of antennas from Antennas Direct, as they have good reports for both indoor and outdoor reception. I'm sure I'll have many more questions, so as they say, "stay tuned." I'll be back.....
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Old 21-Apr-2017, 12:11 AM   #24
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Rca ant751

P.S. I just noticed your Signal Diagnostics Screen report. Your SNR is 34, but your signal strength is 57. You have a Sony TV, but on my Samsung if I had an SNR of 34, my signal strength would be 100%. I'm uncertain about this other than Samsung does it different than Sony. Any thoughts? Thanks.
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Old 21-Apr-2017, 1:16 AM   #25
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The signal strength scale on TVs is just a relative scale; the scale will vary from brand to brand, and it isn't even the same on my different model Sony TVs.

The important thing is that you can use it for comparisons, like how weak can a signal be and still be received. Or you can use it for aiming an antenna while watching signal strength and signal quality as defined by SNR and uncorrected errors.

I used my signal level meter to calibrate the signal strength scale of my KDL32R400A:



In the screen shot channel 16 measured 57 on the Sony, which is equal to -2 dBmV which is equal to -51 dBm. Channel 16 on my report is listed as having a signal power of -29 dBm, so the signal at the tuner is 22 dB weaker than listed. The signal is weaker inside because of the building and tree loss. but it is made a little stronger because of the antenna gain (on UHF). The report assumes that a simple dipole antenna is used; that is the reference for a 0 dB NM signal.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SSCHART KDL32R400A4.jpg (185.6 KB, 882 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 22-Apr-2017 at 2:45 AM.
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Old 22-Apr-2017, 7:00 AM   #26
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Rca ant751

I found an initial answer to the question I posed to rabbit73 above regarding how the "new and improved" RCA ANT7511 would compare to the previous versions of the ANT751. It was a reply from holl_ands on the AVS Forum in a thread on the antenna subsection back on 12/28/2016. Here is what he said:

IF you provide detailed Measurements and multiple PHOTOS (incl. a RULER in the Photo), then I can TRY to model ANT-7511 ES (or most any other Antenna of interest). But I haven't published 4nec2 Results for ANT-751 because Log-Yagi's (ditto YA-1713) do NOT model very well on the upper frequencies wrt Gain and SWR for ANT-751 was "off"....I suspect I need pricey NEC4 Engine to model the Cross-Over Feedlines and hopefully eliminate these shortcomings.

UHF portion of ANT-751 and ANT-7611 ES are SLIGHTLY different...but not by much and SAME number of UHF Elements....so, probably about the same UHF Gain....as given in Spec Sheet for HD-7000, from which the UHF part of ANT-751 was derived:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7000R.pdf

My simplified 4nec2 model for the ANT-751R/EZHD calculated 6.3 dBi (Minimum at band edges) to 7.5 dBi (Max Mid-Band) Hi-VHF Gain. When I removed the most forward Hi-VHF Director to emulate the ANT-7511 (although without SAME Element Spacings) it is reduced to 5.6 dBi (Minimum at band edges) to 7.0 dBi (Max Mid-Band). So only 0.5 to 0.7 dB reduction in Hi-VHF Gain.

FYI: Slightly higher Hi-VHF Gain numbers (esp. on upper Channels) were found when I OPTIMIZED 3 and 4-Element Hi-VHF Yagi's [which tend to provide more Gain than Log-Yagi's, esp. on higher frequencies], using Folded-Dipole Active Elements designed for Hi-VHF Band....rather than going THROUGH the UHF Folded Dipole Active Element, as done in the ANT-751 Log-Yagi [UHF Dipole and TWO Hi-VHF Active Elements form a 3-Element LPDA structure]...which is clearly causing some minor degradation, esp. on Ch12/13:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf3elfdyagiopt
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf4elfdyagiopt

Here is where I actually found the above comment:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...ntenna-related

So it appears from his findings that there is a small loss in gain from the RCA ANT7511 to the ANT751, if I'm reading him correctly. Any thoughts?
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Old 22-Apr-2017, 7:09 AM   #27
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Rca ant751

P.S. The above quoted comment is specifically found in the HDTV Technical section on the AVS Forum.
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Old 22-Apr-2017, 6:29 PM   #28
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Ah, yes; I remember that thread:

first post by kram1
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...l#post48491929

post by kram1 showing two boxes

He said he bought the 751, but he bought the 7511

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...l#post48525657



post by kram1 showing ANT7511 up

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...l#post49316025



post by holl_ands that you quoted

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...l#post49348785

The gain figures that holl_ands gave are only estimates, but I am inclined to agree with him. He is very good at antenna modeling, but isn't able to model LPDAs with great accuracy because of software limitations.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg kram1avsRCAANT751boxes_1.jpg (140.1 KB, 872 views)
File Type: jpg kram1avsRCAANT7511up_1.jpg (118.1 KB, 928 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 22-Apr-2017 at 7:10 PM.
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Old 28-Apr-2017, 7:16 PM   #29
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I made some measurements indoors to compare the GE 34792 Attic Antenna with the RCA ANT7511 Antenna. They are not exactly antenna test range measurements that an engineer would do, and they are not quite as accurate as I used to be able to do when I mounted two antennas side-by-side on my car and used stable LOS signals. But, I think they are useful because I used my Sadelco DisplayMax 800 Signal Level Meter in the single channel scan mode.

The meter makes many measurements across a TV channel during a single channel scan, as a spectrum analyzer would do, and calculates the average of all the measurements. I used an RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp and a splitter to feed the meter and my Sony KDL32R400A TV.



The GE antenna did a little better on channel 7, even though it only has a folded dipole for VHF. The RCA antenna did better on channel 13, as would be expected with 3 VHF elements.

UHF comparison coming soon.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GE34792vsRCAANT7511vhf.jpg (210.4 KB, 831 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 28-Apr-2017 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 28-Apr-2017, 10:45 PM   #30
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The GE antenna is much better on channel 16, and a little better on 29, than the RCA ANT7511 (at this location). The RCA doesn't look like it would be suitable for UHF after repack, but please keep in mind that my measurements indicate how the antennas performed at my location and it might not be an accurate indication of the actual gain of the antennas.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GE34792vsRCAANT7511uhf.jpg (230.1 KB, 798 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 4-May-2017 at 3:36 AM.
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Old 29-Apr-2017, 12:30 AM   #31
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Smile Rca ant751

Wow, rabbit73.....you're THE MAN! Excellent testing especially given indoors and limits of your current situation from what you used to be able to door with your outdoor set up. And unfortunately, the updated RCA 7511 doesn't appear to compete with the newer indoor GE Attic; as compared to it's very successful former RCA 751. My advise would be to grab a long box 751 if you can find one while you still can! Thanks a million, rabbit73! We're fortunate to have your expertise and input on TV Fool!!
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Old 29-Apr-2017, 12:38 AM   #32
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Thanks for your kind words; glad you enjoyed it. It was an interesting project for me, because many people can only have an indoor antenna.

Now I'm wondering how a 751 would compare with a 7511.
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Old 1-May-2017, 2:45 PM   #33
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I found an RCA ANT751R on ebay with free shipping. The seller showed a photo of the long unopened box, so I was fairly certain it would be the original. It was the original when it arrived, and he sent it Priority Mail.

Most of the other sellers show a stock image of the unfolded 751, but no photo of the box, so it is hard to tell if is a 751 or 7511 especially when they use various UPCs.

The UPC on my ANT751R box is 0 44476 06452 4. Unfortunately, the UPC bar code on the short 7511 box is the same.

So, I guess the most reliable indicator is the box length, because the boom for the 7511 comes in two pieces, but the boom for the longer 751R is in one piece.

I compared the 751R with my GE Attic antenna as a standard. The VHF signals were a little weaker that day, but it is the comparison that counts.

Code:
GE 34792 Attic Antenna vs Original RCA ANT751R

       GE 34792     RCA ANT751R      TVFOOL
Ch   dBmV  = dBm    dBmV  = dBm    Report dBm

 7    0.3  -48.5     0.4  -48.4      -41.4
13    1.6  -47.2     1.5  -47.3      -37.6
16   14.2  -34.6     7.8  -41.0      -29.0
29   14.8  -34.0    12.9  -35.9      -29.5
40    8.1  -40.7     9.1  -39.7      -29.8

TEST CONDITIONS
Antennas indoors on ground floor, many trees
and buildings in the signal path.
EQUIPMENT 
Antennas, RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp, 2-way splitter, 
Sadelco DisplayMax 800 signal level meter, 
Sony KDL32BX320 TV

Antenna > preamp > power > splitter > meter & TV
                  inserter

The 751R is a LOT better than the 7511 on channel 16, but not as good as the GE. The GE Attic Antenna is designed for indoor use only. It's not rugged enough for outdoor use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAFAN View Post
My advise would be to grab a long box 751 if you can find one while you still can!
Good advice.

The RCA antennas are kind of messy to unfold; they have a coating of oil that comes off on your hands. The thin flat elements are easier to unfold with gloves on because they have sharp edges.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GE34792vsRCAANT751R2.jpg (107.3 KB, 84 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 1-May-2017 at 8:07 PM.
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Old 1-May-2017, 11:56 PM   #34
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Might have some interesting test data after tomorrow.

I had to bail out of the office late this morning to get back home while I could and I'll be land-locked for a couple of days due to local flooding southwest of St Louis. On my way out, I grabbed all (hopefully) my gear to set up my backyard impromptu test range along with a number of antennas. Once I get it set up and running, I'll be able to do relative gain and antenna pattern testing.

I happen to have a 2014 RCA 751R, a recently purchased WG7000, and I picked up both a new 7511 as well as an ANT705Z from a local Walmart on the way home. In total, I have about 18-20 different models to run through the process including a little gem that Santa brought me this winter, an AAronia BicoLOG-5070 (http://www.aaronia.com/products/antennas/BicoLOG-5070/) reference antenna that came complete with performance data. <grin>

Hopefully I grabbed everything I need....
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Old 2-May-2017, 12:41 AM   #35
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Smile

Thanks for posting further testing results rabbit73! Very interesting indeed.

My amateur sense and experience with the RCA751 here at my location, and the nearly 5000 posts on Amazon from users all over the country have indicated its good to excellent performance in a variety of terrain. When RCA removed several elements from their new 7511, especially the UHF Tetrapole and VHF LPDA (I hope I wrote correctly here?), even a dummy like me could figure there would be a compromise in performance.

But what is surprising is how good the GE Indoor/Attic performed in your location, compared to both the RCAs. The GE is getting good reviews on Amazon. And I see they now have an outdoor version of the same antenna. It might be worth further investigation???

I'll be very interested in ADTechs findings when he posts them too. I feel like I'm back in school and really enjoying both you "professor's" lectures!! I'm doing a lot of homework, but ever learning. Thanks to you both again for sticking with this thread!
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Old 2-May-2017, 1:45 AM   #36
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Quote:
And I see they now have an outdoor version of the same antenna. It might be worth further investigation???
Thanks; I didn't know about that. Is it the GE 29884 Pro Outdoor/Attic Mount Antenna? Click on Outdoor 70 mile version:

https://www.amazon.com/GE-33692-Atti...00DNJZ58M?th=1


Quote:
But what is surprising is how good the GE Indoor/Attic performed in your location, compared to both the RCAs.
My guess is the reflector design helps the UHF gain a lot. The directors look like director pairs as in the Winegard patent. But, I haven't figured out the driven element that looks like a long dipole instead of a tetrapole or how the UHF yagi and the VHF dipole are combined. I'm not quite ready to open it up to find out, but the urge is getting very strong.

Please keep in mind what I said above. My measurements indicate how the antennas performed at my location, but they might not be a reliable indicator of the actual gain of the antennas.
Quote:
I feel like I'm back in school and really enjoying both you "professor's" lectures!! I'm doing a lot of homework, but ever learning.
This "professor" is still learning too, even after 76 years of antenna experiments.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GE29884antenna_1.jpg (72.4 KB, 1395 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 4-May-2017 at 3:41 AM.
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Old 2-May-2017, 2:03 AM   #37
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Smile Rca ant751

Yes, your link to the GE Outdoor Antenna is right. There is also a review of it on You Tube posted sometime in early March of this year. I don't have it in front of me, but I'm sure you could find it on their website. I watched it a couple of weeks ago and it was interesting. The few reviews of it on Amazon so far, are promising.

Adtech mentioned the RCA ANT705Z. It looks very much like the GE Outdoor. Walmart has it on their web site. I'll be interested to see what his evaluation of it is.

If you decide to open your GE Indoor up and discover its mysteries, I'll be interest, rabbit73.

Yes indeed, I'm hooked on OTA TV and radio!

Anxious for the professor's next lectures!!
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Old 2-May-2017, 2:37 AM   #38
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Found the 29884 video; thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_XAO14gSms
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Old 2-May-2017, 5:40 PM   #39
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The G.E. 29884 Pro Outdoor/Attic Mount Antenna looks promising
but all that plastic........is cause for concern. With our intense
sunshine and 120f degree heat, I can visualize that plastic falling
apart, cracking and warping after a year or two of service.
A similar antenna, available at Walmart.com uses far less plastic,
and costs a bit less. Cannot help but wonder how it would perform
versus some of the other antennas, including the G.E. 29884.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Attic...enna/146879296
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Old 5-May-2017, 5:30 PM   #40
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Inside the GE 34792 Attic Antenna

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAFAN View Post
If you decide to open your GE Indoor up and discover its mysteries, I'll be interest, rabbit73.
Well, here it is:





I have used the conventional terms for top and bottom of the board. The top is where the components are mounted and the bottom is where the ground plane is located. In actual use, the coax connector faces down.

The GE 34792 Attic Antenna includes a REAL UVSJ, not shorting stubs, to keep the UHF and VHF signals separated before combining. Each section of the antenna has its own balun. The UVSJ and the well designed reflector are responsible for the good performance of this antenna.

Here is a circuit of a UVSJ by SM0HX (amateur radio callsign for a ham in Sweden). The UVSJ UHF/VHF Separator-Joiner belongs to the filter family of Diplexers. All UVSJs are Diplexers, but not all Diplexers are UVSJs; Diplexer is the more general term. A HLSJ is also a Diplexer, but for VHF-Low and VHF-High.



The UHF highpass filter section has 3 series capacitors and 2 shunt inductors. The VHF lowpass filter section has 3 series inductors and 2 shunt capacitors.

Here are the curves for the Radio Shack UVSJ:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg GE34792_board_botom.jpg (173.6 KB, 962 views)
File Type: jpg GE34792_board_top.jpg (152.5 KB, 961 views)
File Type: jpg VHF-UHF Diplexer SM0HXrev.jpg (40.4 KB, 944 views)
File Type: png RS15-2586UVSJ FreqResp3.png (118.9 KB, 1185 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 8-May-2017 at 10:54 AM.
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