Antenna advice Eastern Shore of MD

frankl · 3-Apr-2014, 1:23 PM

Hi, here's my plot: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5b9494feea1f07
I have a Clearstream 2V antenna mounted about 35' above ground and aimed at about 308 deg, connected to a PCT-MA2-2P preamplifier (I also tried a more powerful 30dB preamp, but it made no difference, so I'm assuming I'm amped enough and the problem is the signal the antenna is, or isn't receiving). From there one run goes about 60' to a Panasonic TCL42U25 42" 1080p TV. I'm not yet using the other run, but will eventually run it about the same distance to another TV (currently and old Sony, but will either be replaced or use a converter box).
MY GOAL: To have ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX and PBS. I don't care where they come from, and to be able to record programs from those stations. That's it, that's all I want.
WE LIVE: Against tall (75' woods) which are directly in the way of the current aim of the antenna. They would block the view from around 270 - 030. The leaves have not yet come out, I anticipate this will further degrade my signal.
WHAT I CAN GET: (Note, this is all before the leaves have come out) I can receive ABC on 2-WMAR and 47-WMDT. Both are usually good, though, 2 can be flaky at times. I can receive NBC on 11-WBAL if conditions are good, but it degrades rapidly to unusable (I'm assuming this will go away entirely when the leaves appear). I can get FOX on 21.2 strong through WBOC (WBFF 45.1 rarely comes in). I can get CBS on WJZ 13 rarely, but well on 16-WBOC which is my strongest station. PBS is good on 22-WMPT and 64-WDPB.
So NBC is my real Achilles heel.

I have tried an AT-163 converter/PVR to record, but when I run the signal through the box I lose signal and even 16 WBOC is barely watchable. Apparently their tuner is not as good as the one in my TV. I tried two boxes, neither worked. I'm getting an iview box today and will see if that's better. I know Channel Master has a DVR box, but it's about $300 which is more than I'm willing to spend to go that route I think.

My concern is that when the leaves come out I'll be screwed. I REALLY don't want to go to one of the 10' antenna's due to aesthetics, and more importantly I assume I'd have to get a mast to support it - which I'm assuming the installation of would cost so much I might as well stick with the DISH $27 economy package and call it a day?

There's another NBC station in another direction but I've never been able to pick it up - I think it's over 60 miles away.

Any suggestions on either a different "compact" antenna, advice on how to economically mount a ginormous antenna (and will it work anyway?), or PVR/DVR recording devices with tuners that are at least as good as the one in my TV?
Thanks so much for any help, I really appreciate it!
Frank

tonyp063 · 3-Apr-2014, 4:04 PM

I think the C2-V is simply not enough antenna for your location, especially for the hi-vhf stations.

Were it me, I would consider a 2 antenna solution.

An AntennsDirect DB4e for UHF & an Antennacraft Y5-713 for hi-VHF, combined with a UVSJ
Both aimed at about 300-305 magnetic to start.
The y5-713 is only 5' long

That would give you an additional ~5db gain on uhf & ~4db on hi-vhf (don't forget, 3db == 2x the strength) which may just be enough to overcome the losses.

A single antenna solution would be a Winegard HD7697p, but it won't give you quite as much gain & is that 10' antenna you don't want.

I'm sure others will chime in with their recommendations too.

3-Apr-2014, 6:08 PM

+=>
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The Digital Broadcast Tv Stations to the , South South East , are.

WBOC-DT Real UHF band channel 21 , (virt) virtual number (16.1) , CBS , FOX , Antenna Tv.

WMDT-DT Real UHF band channel 47 , (virt) virtual number (47.1) , ABC , The CW.

WDPB-DT Real UHF band channel 44 , (virt) virtual number (64.1) , PBS.

WNDC-LP Real VHF low band channel 2 , (virt) virtual number (11.1) Religion.

WCPB-DT Real UHF band channel 28 , (virt) virtual number (28.1) PBS.

WDPB and WCPB are the same PBS.

The UHF channels to the South South East are strong signal strength and easy to receive.

If the channel 2 WNDC Religion , is Excluded from reception , then all easy to receive channels to the South South East are UHF channels.

A antenna system amplifier will most likely not be required for UHF channels to the South South East.

Aim the CS2V antenna at about 169 degree magnetic compass direction.

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Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antennas , do not trust a cell phone compass.

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The following is a best recommendation for reliable reception of channel 11.

WBAL-TV Real VHF high band channel 11 , (virt) virtual number (11.1) NBC , Me-Tv.

Is in the direction of the Trees , the signal strength is Weak , and has 2 Edge Path obstructions= hills/mountains.

So install a High Gain VHF high band antenna.

Install a , http://www.antennacraft.net.

Y10-7-13 VHF channels 7 thru 13 high band antenna aimed at about 319 degree magnetic compass direction.

As a ' Test ' to boost reception of channel 11 , connect the PCT-MA2-2P amplifier to Only the Y10-7-13 antenna.

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Use only 1 of the outputs of the amplifier.

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Install a UVSJ=UHF/VHF Separator/Joiner.

Model , EU385CF-1s

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Connect the 1 output of the PCT-MA2-2P to the VHF input of the UVSJ.

Connect the CS2V antenna to the UHF input of the UVSJ.

And the remaining connection of the UVSJ goes to the Tv.

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If you still have the other amplifier , the amplifier can be tested in place of PCT-MA2-2P.

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Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. .

http://www.antennacraft.net.

http://www.amazon.com.

_________________________________________________________

You can also checkout this service , http://www.aereo.com

__________________________________________________________

The December 2013 Consumer Reports , page 42 , has , Practical , Useful , Informative , information about Internet Streaming Boxes and Streaming Services.

frankl · 4-Apr-2014, 12:42 AM

Tony, thanks! It seems like maybe just the 4dbe would do it for me wouldn't it? Like I said, as long as I get the networks, PBS and Fox, I'm happy. In the UHF range I should be able to get ABC, Fox, CBS and PBS on real channels 47, 21, 21, and 44, and maybe w/ that antenna I could pick up NBC 48 WRC-DT (although the plot gives an "adjacent channel" warning, I assume for 47? What do you think? Or do you think 68 miles is pushing it for 48 with that antenna through the edge of the trees?
Or maybe I could just add the y5 to pick up channel 11 and add the combiner? I assume it would go antennas->combiner->preamp->TV?

No static at all · 4-Apr-2014, 11:26 AM

I would opt for NBC 11 as it carries Me TV & I don't think you have much of a chance receiving WRC-48 from DC reliably.

As far as VHF antenna choice, I personally would go for the Y10-7-13, but if size is a concern the Y5-7-13 may work fine if the CV-2 already sees 11 at times. The good news is the Y-5-7-13 is cheap, so not a huge risk.

frankl · 4-Apr-2014, 1:22 PM

Thanks guys! Sorry Teleview, didn't see your comment before I replied to Tony. I think I'll try the Y5 first, maybe even give it a shot in the attic out of curiosity first, it can't hurt, and it's a hell of a lot easier than getting waaaaay up on that ladder! Teleview, I'm not sure I understand why I shouldn't put the combiner before the preamp, unless you're thinking that with the C2V pointed in the right direction it would overpower them? That way I could then run a line from each output of the preamp to my two TV's, instead of using a splitter down the line which would cut in half the preamp power, right? I'm fine with experimenting, but I really am at the top of the ladder, reaching back over my head as high as I can to make these connections (and 35' in the air), so the less time I spend up there the better!

)
One other thing, the combiner you quoted is discontinued, how about this one instead (plus, it's a lot cheaper and has 5 stars)? Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna (UVSJ)

tonyp063 · 4-Apr-2014, 1:49 PM

You can certainly try with just the DB4e. It has *some* hi-vhf capabilities. AD doesn't advertise that, because they didn't design it for hi-vhf, but it does.

If it turns out to not be enough you can add a dedicated hi-vhf antenna at a later date.

I agree with No Static. WBAL is a better NBC option than WRC (although CoziTV is fairly cool)

If you are considering a pre-amp, look at an RCA tvpramp1r
It has separate vhf & uhf inputs, or it can also operate in combined mode

4-Apr-2014, 4:23 PM

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No requirement to amplify the UHF channels , however it is Ok to amplify both the UHF and VHF antennas.

The reason I recommend amplify the VHF antenna only is to reduce the UHF signals in the amplifier , the reason for reducing the UHF signals is to reduce possible interference from the mixing of UHF and VHF signals in the amplifier.

To give a slight edge for reception of the Weak signal strength VHF channel 11.

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Yes is Ok to use the Pico Macom , UVSJ.

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That is interesting about the , EU385CF-1s.

Antennas Direct , best selling preamplifier went out of stock and has not been replaced.

And now the EU385CF-1s is out of stock.

frankl · 4-Apr-2014, 5:13 PM

Great, thanks to everyone! The stuff is on order, I'll let you know how it works out.

There were some on Amazon available, but they cost 2 1/2 as much as the Pico, which I'd seen recommended on here before I think. Thanks again!

GroundUrMast · 4-Apr-2014, 5:56 PM

Just a side bar comment on the UVSJ vs. the competing product from AD...

The added cost of the AD combiner included a weather resistant housing. For expposed applications, this was a worthwhile expense... In protected applications, the UVSJ would be far more cost effective.

I continue to hope AD will have a replacement for the CPA-19, and hope the out-of-stock situation for their UHF/VHF combiner is a temporary supply issue.

frankl · 4-Apr-2014, 6:18 PM

Can the Pico not be used outdoors???

GroundUrMast · 4-Apr-2014, 6:53 PM

It can, but it would be prudent to seal the connections with Coax-Seal or Scotch 2228 sealing tape, over-wrapped with a good quality vinyl electrical tape. (Vinyl electrical tape alone will not seal water out. It simply protects the soft sealing tape product while compressing it onto the cable and connector.)

The same is true for any other connections exposed to the elements.

tonyp063 · 4-Apr-2014, 8:46 PM

Quote:

Tony. I think I'll try the Y5 first, maybe even give it a shot in the attic out of curiosity first, it can't hurt, and it's a hell of a lot easier than getting waaaaay up on that ladder!

Understood, but all bets are off with an attic installation. Too many variables involved that could cause signal degradation, esp. on vhf.

could be as little as 6db loss, could be as bad as 25db loss. It just depends on too many factors that are indigenous to your particular attic. YMMV

frankl · 11-Apr-2014, 6:26 PM

So I got all the equipment. I'm going to hook up both antennas through the combiner and then to the preamp. Is it necessary that the run from each antenna to the combiner be roughly the same length? I was thinking about putting the UHF on a lower roof (~20' away). Also, on the combiner, I'm assuming the "HI" input is for UHF and the "LOW" is for VHF?
Thanks!

tonyp063 · 11-Apr-2014, 6:40 PM

No it's not. Coax length only matters when you are trying to properly phase 2 identical antennas.

And yes, that is how you hook them up with a UVSJ.

GroundUrMast · 11-Apr-2014, 8:16 PM

tonyp063 is right.

FWIW: In an ideal installation, the preamp will be very close to the antenna. Any loss between the antenna and preamp is net noise margin lost forever. 20' of coax is not too bad and will rarely be a significant factor. By the time you get to about 50' of coax, at UHF frequencies, the loss is about 3 dB and the net NM hit is starting to become a consideration in some installations.

If both antennas are receiving one or more weak signals, and therefor require a preamp, a preamp at each antenna would be worth considering. The output of each antenna / preamp can be combined downstream of the power inserters in such cases.

11-Apr-2014, 9:35 PM

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HLSJ = High VHF channels 7 thru 13 / Low VHF channels 2 thru 6.

Seperator / Joiner.

Used to combine VHF high band and VHF low band antennas.

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UVSJ = UHF channels 14 thru 51 / VHF channels 2 thru 13.

Separator / Joiner.

UVSJ , is used to combine UHF and VHF antenna.

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When using the the UVSJ and HLSJ the coaxes Do Not need to be the same lengths from the antennas to the UVSJ , HLSJ .

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For your reception situation use the UVSJ.

Connect the C2v to the UHF connection of the UVSJ.

Connect the Y5 to the VHF connection of the UVSJ.

frankl · 12-Apr-2014, 12:56 AM

Ok, so I ended up putting both antennas up on the high roof. The CV2 slightly lower and pointing at about 170 and the Y5 up a couple of feet and pointing (small elements toward the front) at about 320. They both have less than a 6' run to the combiner, and from there about 18" to the preamp, then the preamp sends the signal about 50' to the TV. Got it all hooked up and took down the ladder just as it was getting dark. Went inside and did a channel search and now I don't get ANY VHF channels??? The UHF seem to be coming in strong. The CV2 has it's own combiner I think, since it's got both a VHF and UHF antenna together. Could having the signal run through 2 combiners somehow mess up the signal coming from just the y5? Tomorrow I'll climb back up and check to make sure I've got everything hooked up correctly, and I guess I'll try taking the CV2 out of the picture all together and see what happens. Only other thing I can think is if the combiner is messed up somehow?
Also, I used a Channel Master 3075 (CM0089) matching transformer to connect the y5, which is what Solid Signal said was the correct one - is it?

12-Apr-2014, 6:57 AM

+=>

So the Y5 did not come with a matching transformer??

frankl · 12-Apr-2014, 8:44 PM

After my last post, I tried again to program channels and this time I got WBAL (11) and WJZ (13) both coming in pretty good, not perfect. I got WBOC (CBS & Fox on 21) coming in OK, but not as good as previously (this should be my strongest station). I got WMPT (22) and WCPB (28) both pretty good (28 better than before, 22 about the same). WMDT (47) about the same or maybe worse and same with WDPB (44).
So in summary, I was getting 11 and 13 better with the y5, but most of the UHF were worse or the same after aiming the CV2 straight at the UHF stations?
This morning I first tried disconnecting the CV2 completely and got 11 and 13 pretty strong and WBOC (21) better than before unplugging. Got no other UHF.
Then I tried w/ only the CV2 plugged in and got all the UHF channels at pretty much full strength and a not-really-watchable WMAR 38.
Then I tried w/ only the y5 plugged in and 11 and 13 came in OK (not really any better than before) and the UHF's were hit and miss.
Finally, I just plugged it all back the way it was before and I guess I'll try it for a few days and see if I can live with it. I'm concerned though what it'll be like when the trees leaf out.
Also, the "Pico Macom" UVSJ I ordered showed up doesn't say PICO anywhere on it. It says, "Blonder Tongue" ZUVSJ No. 1978A ??? So I'm wondering what I really got?
The antennas are mounted pretty close to each other, and I also have a Cellphone Mate Yagi CM230W antenna mounted in there too, about 5" under the y5, and the CV2 about a foot under that and off to the side about another foot.
I'm just disappointed that the UHF signals don't seem to be coming in stronger. The y5 seems to be doing it's job.