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Old 24-Jul-2013, 2:38 AM   #1
vakeroo
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Question HD Stacker, CM-5020, 91XG signal issues

Hello everyone!!!

For the past few weeks I decided to cut the outrageous satellite bill off. I've been doing some reading here online and asking a few people in the area about OTA reception. Anyways, I made the initial decision and purchase the RCA ANT751 placed 15ft high. I was very impressed to see there is reception of a few channels from towers almost 50 miles away, so I added a Winegard AP-8700 Amplifier and see a little further. The Amplifier added a few more channels which made me very happy.

This was all done according to tvfool.com
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aecd9a0613ec

Now, this reception was really good and so I decided to experiment a little more and purchase Denny's HD Stacker and complement it with the Winegard AP-8700 Amplifier and place it 25ft high. Now, to my surprise the reception was worse. I lost a few channels 29, 7.1, 9.1, and 45 channels went away, not counting channels I had really good reception went to very weak reception. My intent here is to receive as many channels from 150 to 160 magnetic degrees. Now, I'm pointing my antenna utilizing my Military Lensatic Compass and there is no trees or big hills around me, I'm located in the desert

I know I'm not an expert, but at the same time I think I know what I'm doing. All my cables and Eagle connections are Eagle RG6 quad shield. So I don't see any reason why the HD Stacker is giving me such low performance. The RCA ANT751 does a better job, why?...

Anyways, after doing some reading I ordered an Kitztech TV Booster KT-200-COAX TV Antenna Booster Remote Power - Coax Fed and see if the lower noise factor makes a difference. The improvement after installing the booster was very little, some pixilation went away on some channels like channel 50.

At this point, I wanted to try a different antenna so I purchased the Channel Master 5020 and give it a try. The result was better than the Denny's HD Stacker but it wasn't any better than the RCA ANT751 .

Well, continuing to get better results I purchased the Antennas Direct 91XG. It was installed and it was the same performance reception than the RCA ANT751 .

After these results with Channel Master and Antennas Direct, now I am considering the Xtreme Signal HDB91x from Solid Signal. Does it sound like a good idea?

I would like to get some input from the experts on TV Fool.

If you are reading my post, thank you for your time and I hope some of the more experienced guys can guide me on OTA reception troubleshooting.

Last edited by vakeroo; 24-Jul-2013 at 12:43 PM. Reason: The degrees specified were wrong. Apologies.
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Old 24-Jul-2013, 11:17 AM   #2
Stereocraig
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I would expect the HDB91X to perform the same as the 91XG, so you may as well just save your money. I would also expect the 91XG to perform better than you're reporting. It is going to be more directional than the 751, so you may be off by a few degrees and it may need to be bumped, just a skoch.

There will certainly be more knowledgeable posters along shortly.
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Old 25-Jul-2013, 1:48 AM   #3
ADTech
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I hate to say it, but you've wasted a lot of money while ignoring the root of your problem that's right in front of you - that million watt PBS station straight in the line of sight less than 7 miles dead ahead. It's causing almost everything to overload.

Sell/return everything except the 91XG and perhaps the KT-200. Take that money and call Tin-Lee up in Toronto and tell them you need a very sharp and deep channel 23 notch filter. Ask for at least 30 dB attenuation, 40 would be better. Expect it to cost up to several hundred dollars.

Then, for an amp, select either the KT-200 or a CM or PCT 1-port Distribution amplifier with a remote power inserter and install the amp at the mast head.

You'll then be in the ballpark, at least.
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Last edited by ADTech; 25-Jul-2013 at 3:49 PM. Reason: Changed comments on the KT-200
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Old 25-Jul-2013, 8:11 AM   #4
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KRWG-DT Real Digital channel 23 , virtual number (22.1) PBS channels.

KWRG is Very Strong Strength , is LOS=Line Of Sight , and only 6.5 miles.

This means the signal strength is Very Strong.

Recommend do not use a signal amplifier , the signal amplifier will overload and make reception worse.

____________________________

The mountains to the , South East , South , South West , are impeding/reducing reception of the more distant Tv stations to the , South East.

__________________

All the receivable Digital Broadcast Tv stations/channels are UHF channels.

I recommend a Big UHF channels 14 thru 51 antenna to receive as much signal as possible of the more distant Tv stations to the , South East.

Install a Channel Master CM4228HD UHF antenna.

Aim the CM4228HD UHF antenna at about 154 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

____________________________________________________

This next information is Important Information.

The Antennas job is to receive the signal , not a amplifier.

A amplifier can increase signal strength

A amplifier does not receive signal.

Your reception situation is , more signal must be received of the distant Tv stations to the , South East , because the mountains are impeding/reducing signal strength.

Your reception situation is UHF channels 14 thru 51.

A Big UHF antenna receives more signal.

A smaller antenna receives less signal.

_____________________________________________________

The next information is Important Information.

Trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , have a Negative effect on Tv reception and so do buildings and other obstructions in the directions of reception.

For your reception situation it is Important that no obstructions are in the way the direction of reception.

You can not cut down the mountains.

So must do what you can to avoid obstructions that you can control in the direction of reception.

_____________________________________________________

The following information is a set up to Prove reception by reducing connections that will reduce reception.

Do the best you can to get reliable reception with a Big UHF antenna.

Have only 1 Tv connected , No splitters or any thing else that will reduce reception.

Recommend Run a NEW coax from the CM4228HD UHF antenna Direct to 1 Tv only.

Digital Tv Tuners can develop - Digital Glitches that are not cleared out with simple channels scans.

Do a Double Rescan , http://www.dtv.gov/rescan.html.

____________________________________________________


The following information is a Test type reception situation and IS Not A Magic Pill.

A Winegard HDP-269 preamp has high overload resistance.

The HDP-269 Is Not a Substitute for getting the best reception First with a Big UHF Antenna as directed.

The HDP-269 can be tried and see what happens.

__________________________________________________

Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. .

http://www.solidsignal.com.

http://www.amazon.com.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com.

http://winegarddirect.com.

_______________________________

Here is some practical and useful information.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...callsign=67760.

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The current Tv channels that are being transmitted and received in , USA , Canada , Mexico , are.

VHF low band channels 2 thru 6.

VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

UHF band chaqnnels 14 thru 51.
___

Your location has UHF band channels 14 thru 51.

Use a Big UHF antenna for reception.

____________________________________________

Last edited by teleview; 2-Aug-2013 at 7:31 PM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 25-Jul-2013, 3:45 PM   #5
ADTech
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Additional comments:

All of your stations are UHF, so there is zero need for any of the antennas with wide elements such as the 5020, Stacker, or even the 751. Only the 91XG is a "best" fit your stations of interest.

The ANT751 worked somewhat better for a reason that's not immediately obvious - it's because its a lower gain antenna that didn't increase the signal strength of the PBS station as much as the other antennas that all feature higher UHF gain.
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Old 25-Jul-2013, 5:24 PM   #6
No static at all
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Are you still using the 8700 amp? Did you ever try the 3414 you already have with both parts of the 8700 removed from the system?
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Old 25-Jul-2013, 11:34 PM   #7
vakeroo
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Thank you guys for all the responses.

Well, the HD Stacker and the CM-5020 are returned. They were not useful at all, at least to my specific problem.

ADTech, you have a very good point and I already emailed Tin-Lee Electronics so I'm just waiting for an answer and a quote of course. But also as I was doing further research, I bumped into Microwave Filter Co and they have some tunable traps available. I was wondering if their products could help me attenuate channel 23. Do you think their model 5891 series could help me on this matter?
What if I just block completly channel 23 with a Channel Plus NF-470 Notch Filter?

No static at all, I am not using the Wineguard 8700 anymore and I did try the CM3414. The reception with it was just as good or as bad as utilizing the KT-200. When I tested the CM-3414 I only ran a few feet of RG6 cable to the temporary TV setup trying to prevent low signal. In my original setup I run around 80ft of cable to my TV testing the KT-200 and the Wineguard 8700 , just a little less pixilation utilizing the KT-200.
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Old 26-Jul-2013, 1:40 AM   #8
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If the NF-470 can be returned or you can 'eat' the cost... give it a try. But don't be surprised if it impacts real CH-16 & 17. The custom built/tuned filter from TinLee can be counted on to provide more attenuation of the CH-23 signal with far less impact on other channels.

In an effort to cover all the bases... have you considered what the signal conditions are like a bit higher up? It costs nothing to run a TVFR for 'what-if' mounting heights.

I would hang on to the AD 91XG.
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Old 26-Jul-2013, 3:23 PM   #9
ADTech
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I don't know what the specifics of the 5891 or the NF-470's notch (the diagram isn't accurate enough). I'm not optimistic it will work well enough without causing collateral damage.

Do not get the 4228 instead of the 91XG, it is not going to solve this problem. Neither will an HDP-269.

Quote:
When I tested the CM-3414 I only ran a few feet of RG6 cable to the temporary TV setup trying to prevent low signal.
Placing an amplifier at the TV does very little in most cases. Place the amp at the antenna for best results.
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Last edited by ADTech; 26-Jul-2013 at 3:48 PM.
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Old 27-Jul-2013, 4:16 AM   #10
vakeroo
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Well, Tin-Lee electronics replied to my email and the price for the attenuator is fair. Just a few more dollars than what I would pay for the NF-470 notch. I'm going to try them both and I will get back to you about my results.

ADTech, the amplifiers were placed at the mast, they all did well but the KT-200 did better than the other tested.
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Old 27-Jul-2013, 8:57 PM   #11
teleview
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Distant Tv signals and distant Tv signals crossing mountatins and etc. tend to shift and move , up and down / side to side.

The Big Broad Flat Surface of the CM4228HD UHF Antenna receives signal as the signal moves and shifts.

The CM4228HD is a stacked antenna both vertical and horizontal.

_________________________

The Tv signals scatter and bent as the Tv signals come across the mountains.

This creates hot spots and cool spots signal strengths.

Can help to move the antenna around , higher and lower , left and right , forward and back , probing , searching for a good hot spot location.

Last edited by teleview; 30-Jul-2013 at 7:59 PM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 28-Jul-2013, 8:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
....the root of your problem that's right in front of you - that million watt PBS station straight in the line of sight less than 7 miles dead ahead. It's causing almost everything to overload.
A second trick to reduce interference is to stack two identical antennas side by side to place a null on the interfering station. In your case, two 91XG antennas stacked 38" apart and carefully aimed would null channel 23 by at least 15 db.

Look here for the theory:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/ganging.html

I've done this myself many times, once with support from ADTech.
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Old 28-Jul-2013, 8:54 PM   #13
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Agreeing with Tower Guy, here are a few more links on the subject:
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=1024
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Old 29-Jul-2013, 5:32 PM   #14
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I figured that, by the time he bought a second antenna, fabricated an appropriate mount that provides the correct horizontal spacing, then installed the whole thing up in the air that a filter that provides the specified attenuation would be a better idea.
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Old 7-Aug-2013, 2:48 PM   #15
vakeroo
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Well, this is an update.

Today I was able to get the notch filter from Channel Plus NF-470 Notch Filter and I placed it between the antenna and the amp. The results were that channels 23 was gone, but the reception from other channels stayed the same. Also I raised the antenna to 30ft up in the air.

Since that did not change anything besides get rid of channel 23, I did try to place it after the amp and now channel 23 was there once again and the reception was the same as far as the other channels.

So far, now I am just waiting on Tin-Lee's attenuator so I can try it as GroundUrMast recommended.

If this does not work, I will sell everything on craigslist and contract directTV once again.
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