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Old 17-Nov-2017, 1:00 PM   #41
jrgagne99
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Quote:
Do you think some of the issues are related to the TV?
The other TVs are Dynex.
Possibly. My buddy had a situation in which adding the second TV killed reception on the the first one. Simply unplugging the coax from the back of the second TV restored reception to the first one. He ended up replacing the second TV and that fixed it.


It sounds like you should simplify your setup until you get the reception figured out. Reduce to just one TV, and use short run of new RG-6 (50 feet or less) between the TV and the antenna. Use a buddy to find the best location and aim for the antenna. You might want to use a mast-mounted pre-amp during this exercise, but with a short run of coax and no splitters, the benefit will be small (less than 3dB of SNR is lost over 50-ft of RG-6). Simplicity probably outweighs amplification at this stage. Once you have single-TV reception optimized, then it is time to add in the complexities back in to your setup. Split to your three TVs, ad coax, etc. This is where the pre-amp will likely be needed, however you should confirm the pre-amp isn't going to hurt you, by using it on the single-TV setup before adding the splitters, additional coax runs, TVs, etc.

Last edited by jrgagne99; 17-Nov-2017 at 1:06 PM.
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Old 1-Dec-2017, 1:53 PM   #42
blackstone
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Update and new issues that I hope you will continue to offer your advice.

Thank you in advance and I apologize that this is so long.
Just want to give as much detail as I can that may help.

I bought a DB8e antenna from Antenna Direct.(25% off Black Friday sale)
I learned after buying that this is not a good antenna for VHF so was advised to keep my old antenna for VHF and use the new antenna for UHF.

Added 2 sections of mast and attempted to install at the peak of my house but there was too much weight and bent the mast.
Re-installed at original location with the VHF antenna at the top with the DB8e below on the same mast.
The VHF is @20-21'' and the UHF is 15-17' and about 4-5' above my steel roof.

The old VHF works perfectly and I get all the channels I could expect to get or hope for.

The UHF is another matter and I have talked to Antenna Direct support quite a few times.
I have pointed and scanned quite a few times (20-30?. Or more)
I have had the panels parallel and also pointed in different directions.
I am doing better with the panels in different directions.

I don't think I have gained any stations that I didn't previously get.
As of now, I have one panel at approx. 194 and the other at approx. 215.

I don't get stations that I would have hoped or expected to get with a new antenna.

Here's what I don't get:
RF---->Virtual---> Call letters
51 4 WTAE
48 11 WPXI
42 22 WPNT
38 16 ION

Weak to half decent
43 53 WPGH

Good with the present setting
?? 6 WJAC
Best:
25 2 KDKA

New coax from the new antenna (50')
I have tried going directly from the antenna combiner box into my amp without using splitters/combiners...

If the metal roof is the issue, I could (possibly) move the DB8e about 20' from the house to a wooden light pole.

Today I'm going to try an experiment.
I have one of those cheap, motorized 150 mile antennas with a rotor.
I plan to try it on the side of the house and eliminate the DB8e just to see if it works or improves anything.
It won't be as high as the DB8e.

Once again, thank you for any suggestions and patience
It is a Polaroid AMA-1850P
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Old 1-Dec-2017, 3:38 PM   #43
blackstone
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My mini experiment with the motorized cheapy.
It's standing about 6'

Manually adjusting without the rotor I got RF 51, RF 38, RF 43 and RF 25 as well as 32? Virtual 6 from Johnstown
Those weren't very fine adjustments that I could make with the rotor.

Not sure what this is telling me.
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Old 1-Dec-2017, 11:49 PM   #44
blackstone
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And yet another of my brilliant (ahem) thoughts.

What if I used the motorized antenna solely to get WJAC (Virtual 6) from Johnstown and then focused the DB8e on getting the Pittsburgh stations?

Direct suggested I aim it at 205 (both panels).

I would need to know how to connect all these to my amp that only has 1 in and 4 out.
Would a 4 way splitter work or is there a 3 way or 4 way combiner?

Thank you
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 1:12 AM   #45
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackstone View Post
My mini experiment with the motorized cheapy.
It's standing about 6'

Manually adjusting without the rotor I got RF 51, RF 38, RF 43 and RF 25 as well as 32? Virtual 6 from Johnstown
Those weren't very fine adjustments that I could make with the rotor.

Not sure what this is telling me.
Your Polaroid antenna has a built-in preamp. It is telling you that your Channel Master antenna needs a preamp up near the antenna.



The photo of the Polaroid antenna shows the front director folded forward, which is odd. And the reflector at the rear is unusual; I can't tell what it is made out of.

The similar QFX antenna has the front director folded back like the rest of the directors.



Quote:
I would need to know how to connect all these to my amp that only has 1 in and 4 out.
Would a 4 way splitter work or is there a 3 way or 4 way combiner?
Combining antennas with a splitter in reverse doesn't always work. You just have to try it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Polaroid AMA-1850P.jpg (49.2 KB, 177 views)
File Type: jpg QFX Ant-105.jpg (55.9 KB, 163 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 2-Dec-2017 at 1:52 AM.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 1:40 AM   #46
blackstone
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Thanks for your feedback, Rabbit73.

My Channel Master is performing pretty flawlessly because I am only using it, now, for VHF and I'm getting real good reception for all the VHF channels available to me.

The new DB8e isn't working real well for UH, at all.
I don't think I've gained much of anything that I didn't have before.

Might that Polaroid work without the rotor attached?
My thought was to aim it to get one specific station.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 1:47 AM   #47
rabbit73
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If you are using the Polaroid antenna for UHF only, and the Channel Master for VHF only, you can combine the two antennas with a UVSJ after the Polaroid power supply, but before the splitter.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...Combiners.html

But I think you should still try a preamp near the CM antenna for all channels.
Quote:
The new DB8e isn't working real well for UHF, at all.
I don't think I've gained much of anything that I didn't have before.
Did you try a preamp at the DB8e antenna?
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Last edited by rabbit73; 2-Dec-2017 at 1:55 AM.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 1:50 AM   #48
blackstone
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May I ask why you suggest the pre amp with the CM?

That one is the hardest to get to due to height above roof without dropping the mast to the ground.
(Not easy)
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 1:53 AM   #49
blackstone
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Also. the Polaroid would be for only 1 UHF station in a different direction from all the Pittsburgh stations.
There are 6 transmitters I'm trying to capture there.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 2:01 AM   #50
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackstone View Post
May I ask why you suggest the pre amp with the CM?

That one is the hardest to get to due to height above roof without dropping the mast to the ground.
(Not easy)
I suggest it because a preamp at the Polaroid antenna helps, so a preamp at the DB8e or the CM might help to make the signals stronger BEFORE they go down the coax.

The preamp can be mounted a little below the antenna at a spot you can reach as a test.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 2:03 AM   #51
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackstone View Post
Also. the Polaroid would be for only 1 UHF station in a different direction from all the Pittsburgh stations.
There are 6 transmitters I'm trying to capture there.
Oh, I though you said the CM antenna would be for VHF only.

What are the six channels you need, by call sign?

If 5 of the channels from the west are UHF and VHF, and the SE channel is UHF, then you would need a custom combiner to insert the SE UHF channel into the system because combining two UHF channels from different directions is difficult.

If the SE channel is only just for one TV, there is a way to do it that involves a separate coax to that TV and an inexpensive separate tuner.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 2-Dec-2017 at 2:12 AM.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 2:05 AM   #52
blackstone
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Right now I'm running separate lines for the CM and DB8e.
I would, probably, only put a pre amp on the DB8e because I can reach those connections.

Is the metal roof a factor in the poor performance of the DB8e?

Yes, the CM is for VHF only and working pretty well for that
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 2:08 AM   #53
blackstone
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The 6 channels are:
WTAE
WPXI
WPGH
WPNT
ION

KDKA comes in almost with no antenna
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 3:09 AM   #54
rabbit73
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The 6 channels:

WTAE ABC, real channel 51, NM @ 20 ft 9.0 dB, 196 deg
WPXI NBC, 48, NM 15.1 dB, 216 deg
WPGH Fox, 43, NM 17.3 dB 218 deg
WPNT MyN/Comet, 42, NM 7.4 dB, 218 deg
WINP ION, 38, NM 9.6 dB, 212 deg

KDKA CBS, 25, NM 21.9 dB, 219 deg

I don't see any VHF channels, real channels 2-13, in that list.
WQED PBS is on real channel 13.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 2-Dec-2017 at 3:14 AM.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 3:14 AM   #55
blackstone
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I didn't include them because my old Channel Master picks them up well.

I'm having troubles with UHF
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 3:19 AM   #56
blackstone
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I pick up:
8 WWCP
WTOV 9
WQED 13
WPCW 11

That's most of the stations available to me on VHF.

WWCP is fairly important to me because 8.1 is the only ABC affiliate I get reliably due to my inability to get WTAE
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 3:21 AM   #57
rabbit73
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I don't see WJAC on the UHF list.

Which channel would the Polaroid antenna be for?
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Last edited by rabbit73; 2-Dec-2017 at 3:26 AM.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 3:37 AM   #58
blackstone
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The Polaroid would be for WJAC only.
It doesn't seem the Polaroid works with VHF or I'd try for WWCP too.
The DB8e would be for all the Pittsburgh stations I can't get.

But, I'm not sure why I only get most of them as weak signals except for KDKA.
Regardless of where I point the antenna.

I have received WTAE once or twice since I got the new antenna but it's fickle. I am not getting it now
WPXI not at all now.
WPGH is fairly weak
WPNT not at all
ION only occasionally and weak.
KDKA comes in strong almost whether the antenna is on the ground or pointed almost anywhere.
It's my strongest station, by far
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 11:13 AM   #59
blackstone
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Quote:
If the SE channel is only just for one TV, there is a way to do it that involves a separate coax to that TV and an inexpensive separate tuner.
Unfortunately, it would be for multiple TVs.

It would be a nice bonus if the Polaroid would pick up both WJAC (UHF) and WWCP (VHF)
but it doesn't seem to work on VHF.

What pre amp would you recommend?
Will my CM amp in the basement affect this?

Thank you for continuing to talk to me, Rabbit73

Last edited by blackstone; 2-Dec-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 2-Dec-2017, 3:31 PM   #60
rabbit73
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Do you need Youngstown?



Your report at 20 feet for reference:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a43501c0927d

at 30 feet:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a472ea681a52

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackstone View Post
Unfortunately, it would be for multiple TVs.
If you want all channels in all directions, that will be very complicated. Your signals are weak, which requires high gain antennas. High gain antennas have a very narrow beamwidth; that is the tradeoff with gain vs beamwidth. You also need a preamp for each antenna. Your system will require four antennas with three coax downleads. Each TV will require three coax connections and two separate tuners.

If that is not acceptable to you, then you will need to settle for fewer channels. A CATV system does it with multiple antennas, single channel amplifiers, and a combiner for all channels. It costs thousands of dollars and looks like this:



Quote:
It would be a nice bonus if the Polaroid would pick up both WJAC (UHF) and WWCP (VHF)
but it doesn't seem to work on VHF.
The Polaroid will work on VHF, but only for very strong signals, because it has a single folded dipole for VHF. WJAC on UHF channel 34 is at 142 degrees, and WWCP on VHF channel 8 is at 158 degrees. You would need a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna combined with a UVSJ just for the SE.
Quote:
What pre amp would you recommend?
Your choices are:

Antennas Direct Juice
Channel Master 7777HD/Amplify, has HI/LO gain switch
Channel Master 7778
Quote:
Will my CM amp in the basement affect this?
What models it, 3414?
The primary amplification should come from the preamps at the antennas. The distribution amp down below should only be added if splitting makes the signals too weak.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg blackstoneTVFmap5.JPG (105.0 KB, 144 views)
__________________
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Last edited by rabbit73; 2-Dec-2017 at 3:49 PM.
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