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Old 27-Feb-2017, 4:25 PM   #1
CHD Dad
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Antenna help - High VHF channel - 53 miles

Link to my report - http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a47519e89a38


Need help for Channel 13.1 - ABC

According to that report I can use a simple set top antenna. Well that doesnt work at all. 13 comes in as a total digital mess if at all. I borrowed an older 2 bay Antenna Direct from a friend and mounted it to where the old Direct TV dish was mounted. Did some aiming and got way more channels than with the indoor antenna but 13 is still useless. It does pick up channel 7 perfectly which is weird since it is also VHF and I found out the antenna I tried is UHF.

Due to the direction and where the pole is mounted on the house I cant put a long front to back antenna. Anything behind the pole would hit my roof. The current location is nice since it is already mounted, sealed, wired and grounded and is right above our outside box for cables.

Other issue is that the antenna is aimed at a row of very tall Cypress trees that form a sort of living wall between our property and next door. Every channel is in that direction and there is no way to get above those trees or aim around them.

I was looking at the RCA Compact Yagi as it seems crazy popular online. Other option was a GE 33685, CM 2016, ClearStream 4V or C2V, or??

Trying to find something that I can mount on current pole.

Last edited by CHD Dad; 27-Feb-2017 at 4:31 PM.
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Old 27-Feb-2017, 5:56 PM   #2
GroundUrMast
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It's common to find a UHF antenna provides some degraded VHF reception, and the same is often the case with VHF only designs providing some degree of UHF reception. In either case, the results may not be satisfactory, as you're finding.

Your inclination toward the RCA ANT751R is a very reasonable option. Though the effect of aiming through trees may be a problem that you'll need to overcome. I only have a limited understanding of your location, but would encourage you to be open to trying 'outside the box' ideas if you find that the easy / pre-existing mounting location doesn't perform as well as you would hope. You may need to focus on finding a location for the antenna first... then figure out how to connect that signal to your existing distribution cabling.
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Old 27-Feb-2017, 10:44 PM   #3
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Quote:
Trying to find something that I can mount on current pole.
If that is a requirement, then you'd better go and measure the pole to see what its outer diameter is. Otherwise you're going to be in for an unpleasant surprise if you buy an antenna with a clamp that is too small for the mast.

I suspect that the problem with WLOS is related to local interference. With a calculated margin of almost 40 dB, it should have been easily received by a DB2 .
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Old 28-Feb-2017, 2:54 PM   #4
CHD Dad
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How do I get rid of interference? I'm going to try the RCA, it will fit on the current roof pole and it's cheap enough to give it a go.
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Old 28-Feb-2017, 4:38 PM   #5
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Getting rid of the interference could be simply a matter of just choosing a different location. Often moving the antenna up, down, a few inches in another direction, or to a different point on the roof makes all the difference. If I were you I'd take a fresh length of coax, connect it to a tv nearby and walk the roof to find the best spot. You're going to want the antenna pointed northwest (about 325 degrees) with a clear view.
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Old 28-Feb-2017, 4:54 PM   #6
CHD Dad
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Originally Posted by Jake V View Post
Getting rid of the interference could be simply a matter of just choosing a different location. Often moving the antenna up, down, a few inches in another direction, or to a different point on the roof makes all the difference. If I were you I'd take a fresh length of coax, connect it to a tv nearby and walk the roof to find the best spot. You're going to want the antenna pointed northwest (about 325 degrees) with a clear view.
I've got a 100' length of coax I can connect to the outside cable connection and can walk around up there. It's a shallow slope so I can easily walk the roof. I used a digital compass to aim right at 325 degrees, all other stations come in perfectly that we would want. Just 13.1 is out. It barely even tries to come in, it is just a pixelated mess.

Clear view will never happen. We have an entire privacy screen of very tall Leyland Cypress trees along the direction of all the TV stations. They're a reasonable distance away, around 80 feet, but they're very tall and pretty much make a solid screen. It affords privacy to a future subdivision going in next door so they are not coming down!

If I move the pole should I be looking at a bigger antenna if I can get the front to back clearance? The friend I borrowed this antenna from has a Winegard 7694P mounted up in his attic aiming through his roof and a decorative dormer and he gets 13.1 perfectly! He is also 20 miles south of me so even further away from the station antennas.
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Old 28-Feb-2017, 5:12 PM   #7
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Interference into VHF channels, unless it's from FM radio stations, is almost always extremely LOCAL, usually within a 100 yards or so of the antenna. Usually, the source is either in your home, on your property, or is coming from a nearby home or property.

Trees have a far lesser effect on VHF frequencies than they do for UHF frequencies. I've yet to verify tree-induced reception failure for a VHF signal that should be of moderate strength. UHF signal impairment from trees, I see that all the time.

Be aware that a UHF antenna like the DB2 is NOT going to exhibit the same aiming characteristics on VHF as it does on UHF. It was never designed for VHF plus, depending on when the sample you checked was made may have a balun that causes unexpected results.

Really, you'd be much better off simply getting an antenna made for VHF rather than messing around with a UHF design and trying to figure out what's going on. You could simply go with the VHF retrofit kit for chasing VHF, just be aware that it was not designed for simply attachment to the legacy DB2 (wire grid spacing was different on the old models).

Get the RIGHT antenna, go from there. Ignore the testing from the wrong antenna.
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Old 28-Feb-2017, 5:19 PM   #8
CHD Dad
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OK. I am going to order the RCA and try it in the current location. That fails then I can walk the roof with it and see if a new location helps. RCA still doesnt work I can return it and try something new.

Thanks for the help!
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Old 28-Feb-2017, 6:00 PM   #9
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RCA still doesnt work I can return it and try something new.
If it doesn't work, then !STOP! experimenting on your own.

You'd just be wasting more time, effort, and probably money, because you still haven't figured out the WHY of the failure to receive WLOS. The numbers in the provided plot say it should be "easy". Since it isn't coming in, there's something wrong that has not been identified yet except for using a type of antenna not suited to a location with unknown variables in play.
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Old 28-Feb-2017, 8:24 PM   #10
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Fair enough. I'll try the RCA and if it doesnt work I'll be back to trouble shoot some more. I can try direct wiring it to a TV as well to eliminate any house wire issues.

Thanks again.
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Old 28-Feb-2017, 11:46 PM   #11
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I think I have found the source of interference to WLOS, real channel 13. It is from WYRD FM, which is very close to your location. I don't have your exact address, but this is the FM Fool report I did from an estimate of your location (report also in attachment):
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/e...9/Radar-FM.png



You can do your own report here:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

WYRD is probably causing fundamental overload and its second harmonic falls right in the middle of CH 13.

WYRD FM 106.3 MHz x 2 = 212.6 MHz
CH 13, 210 to 216 MHz

You will need an FM filter or two in series, and you must ground the coax with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground to reduce interference.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.



FM filter, use one or two in series:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...on_filter.html

A HLSJ, HI & LINE ports, can also be used as an FM filter:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zhlsj

Quote:
Did some aiming and got way more channels than with the indoor antenna but 13 is still useless. It does pick up channel 7 perfectly which is weird since it is also VHF and I found out the antenna I tried is UHF.
Channel 7 has 25.7 kW ERP at your location, but channel 13 has only 7 kW ERP.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...dALLTV%26n%3d6

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ALLTV%26n%3d14
Attached Images
File Type: png CHD DadTVF FM.png (117.4 KB, 105 views)
File Type: jpg CHD DadTVFmap4.jpg (183.1 KB, 580 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 1-Mar-2017 at 7:32 PM.
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Old 1-Mar-2017, 2:13 AM   #12
CHD Dad
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Thanks for looking that up, I had no idea FM could cause issues.

See Deyoung? I am the house directly across the street! I am 0.4 miles from the FM tower according to that site you linked.

That map is old even though it says 2017, those 3 Cypress behind house are now a row and that big field to the left is becoming a subdivision/church. We're actually building a new house on same property along Satterfield and parents are moving into the house on map. Where new house sits also has a row of Cypress blocking views from Satterfield and the farm beyond. That could be even harder for an antenna, it sits down in a little valley vs. current house. It's at least 20+ feet lower in elevation. I'll be installing an antenna there as well.

The coax is grounded to the electrical system of the house via a large grounding block and solid copper wire. The actual antenna itself is grounded to the same grounding block via solid copper wire. Sitting up on a hill with a metal rod sticking up in the air I want everything grounded.

I am guessing even with FM filters I will still need a VHF antenna but at least this gives me an idea of why a new antenna may also have issues.

Last edited by CHD Dad; 1-Mar-2017 at 2:20 AM.
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Old 1-Mar-2017, 7:35 PM   #13
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I edited the map. Please see the PM I sent to you.
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