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Old 14-Sep-2018, 7:02 PM   #21
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Yes the arrows are pointing to the fins I was talking about.

No the extra wire is not attached to the coax downlead. I forget exactly what happened, probably a bad wind storm, I had to take the antenna down to straighten it out. That is the line that goes between the UHF and VHF sections of the antenna. I wasn't happy with the contact it was making so I put an additional bridge wire across that connecting point to insure contact was being made. Could that be a problem?
Yes, it could be a problem. The performance of the antenna is based on the diameter and spacing of the two wires that go from the UHF section to the CB-8269 black housing. It probably wouldn't be a problem if it was DC current, but those wires are for RF. The diameter and spacing of the wires determine the impedance of that transmission line, but it is difficult for me to predict how much difference it would make.

I don't like the way the forks on the circuit board make contact with the wires either; I consider it a design weakness of an otherwise good antenna. Most users don't have a problem with that type of connection, but some (like Nascarken) connect a separate balun to each section of the antenna and use an external UVSJ to combine the sections or separate feedlines from each balun and an A/B switch.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=IQW...10.K7IXGBq_dDQ

Winegard has a video to troubleshoot the CB-8269.
http://www.winegard.com/support
scroll down to:
How To Troubleshoot a Winegard Antenna Cartridge Housing

You can buy a replacement CB-8269 housing.

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cb-8269

https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-CB-8.../dp/B003H2G5ZM

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...(CB8269)&post=







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Last edited by rabbit73; 14-Sep-2018 at 7:57 PM.
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Old 14-Sep-2018, 8:13 PM   #22
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
I’m sure most of the east coast is going to be affected by Florence. Hopefully you will be minimally impacted. . .

I’m remembering about my wire job after looking up the the antenna on Amazon and seeing a comment about a design flaw in the antenna. About 3 years ago the antenna was blown down because a roofer undid a guy wire and of course shortly there after a storm blew in from that direction taking it down. I had gone through a bad 3 year period, this was the 3rd time in that period it had gone down. I put it back up but about 3 or 4 feet lower. Ch 12.1 went away, I wasn’t relying on the antenna so I didn’t do much about it. With the Rio Olympics approaching I got serious about getting 12.1 back (NBC) I did things like replace the spliced coax with a home run lead. A storm had rearranged the elements so I took the opportunity to take the antenna off the mast and check it out, tightening things etc.

The antenna has a squirrley bare metal line on either side that goes through the black plastic downlead box. It is very difficult to get it to fit right even when it was brand new. It also connects front and back sections of the antenna. Somehow I managed to mangal the junction between sections which wasn’t hard to do the way it is constructed. I put an addition wire between the joint just to make sure there is a good connection between the 2 sections. It was just before the Olympics that I remembered that it wasn’t as high as it had been prior to it being blown down. Put it back up to full height and was able to watch Rio via OTA rather than the highly compressed Dish locals.

If this somehow comprises the effectiveness of the antenna I will replace the antenna. For me to succeed in this endeavor I must be able to reliably receive 3.1, 5.1, 8.1, 10.1, 12.1, 15.1, 45.1 & 61.1 on both the SDT and the Hopper OTA tuner.

Would eliminating the 3 foot cable from the antenna to the PA have any impact? I could tether the FM trap and the PA directly to the antenna, putting a spacer on the other side of the PA and secure it to the under carriage of the antenna. Downside would be the connectors of the PA would be facing upwards. I know you want to have drip loops in cables. The Juice PA looks to be sealed pretty well and we have thus far thad 5.5 inches of rain (2.6 in Aug) this year and don’t anticipate much more (maybe a little in Dec) for the rest of the year. Rain isn’t a problem factor in Phoenix.

FM trap works well. I first put it in at the DA level, antenna directly to FM receiver feed. When from great FM reception to no FM reception. Then put the PA back on line with the FM trap in front of it. Going through the DA, trusty LG on 12.1 results were the same as without the trap. (s=signal strength Q=quality) S-54 Q 19-21. THEN it started swinging wildly. Q when from 2 - 96. S more stable going between 54 - 56. Time was just before noon. Didn’t get those wild swings prior to the FM trap.

On the SDT No 3.1 S-91 Q-0 or 5.1 S-81 Q-0. I don’t want to scan for 12.1 because I might lose access to checking 3.1 & 5.1.

Picture links will show what I mean by tether, Trap is tethered to the antenna. Also closeup of my wire job.

https://tinyurl.com/ydh7r4rc
https://tinyurl.com/ydam6g9v
Quote:
Would eliminating the 3 foot cable from the antenna to the PA have any impact? I could tether the FM trap and the PA directly to the antenna, putting a spacer on the other side of the PA and secure it to the under carriage of the antenna.


Either way will work. There is very little loss in a short length of coax; a small fraction of a dB. Mechanical and weatherproofing considerations should determine which way to do it.

Quote:
I put an addition wire between the joint just to make sure there is a good connection between the 2 sections.


If you are saying that you connected the UHF and VHF sections of the antenna together with that wire, it's a bad idea that will ruin the performance of the antenna. The VHF section of the antenna will pick up UHF signals that will interfere with the UHF signals from the UHF section. You are defeating the purpose of the UVSJ (UHF/VHF Separator-Joiner) in the CB-8269.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 14-Sep-2018 at 8:45 PM.
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Old 15-Sep-2018, 7:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
OK, we switched to page 2, didnít notice that with my last post. Went to the bottom of the page 1 and saw nothing new, my wife was waiting for me so I quickly pasted my PM not noticing weíd turned another page. :-)

I donít think there is anything wrong with the cartridge. Itís a bear to setup but Iím pretty sure it is properly seated. I have an extra one left over from the antenna that the roofer took down. Iím a pack rat and saved it. I did not bridge anything on the antenna that wasnít already bridged. The knuckle you are seeing in the picture is part of the antenna, my only addition is the wire going across it with black tape on either end. Like you said earlier it would be good for a DC situation but itís a RF situation which I know little about.
It's not clear to me what that extra wire is bridging. I only know that any extra wire might reduce the performance of the antenna.
Quote:
It is curious that 3.1 (real 24) and 5.1 (real 17) are under performing while 15.1, (shows as weak on hopper OTA) 45.1(real 26) and 61.1 (real 49) are working just fine. But as I said I know little about RF. Try the by, 4.1 Tucson has gone away since the antenna realignment. The LG tuner is great, everything is coming in with 12.1 tearing a bit. Both mission critical tuners 3.1, 5.1, 12.1 are MIA in all situations. Iíve gone through the DA and gone straight from the antenna to each device (Hooper & LG are going through a dual splitter at their end). Maybe the mangled wires just outside of the CB-8269 Cartridge is a problem?

If I were to replace the antenna what is the best one to replace it with? Another HD7698P (although I really donít like the way itís put together), Channel Master 3671? Does any one know anything about the Dennyís HD stacker?

https://tinyurl.com/lw72wnh

It looks kind of interesting, they do a comparison with 19 other antennas

https://tinyurl.com/y73ucu2n

But then again itís their marketing so . . .
Yes, Denny is good at marketing. I don't have any experience with his Stacker and the reports are mixed. Some users like it, others not.

You could get another 7698; you are familiar with its quirks.

The Channel Master 3671 is discontinued, but there are a few left. In its day it was popular, but it is very wide because it covers VHF-Low channels 2-6.

The current CM UHF/VHF-High equivalent to the 7698 is the Digital Advantage 100, CM-2020, but the specs list the gain less than the 7698.

Another alternative would be separate UHF and VHF antennas, like the Antennas Direct 91XG for UHF and the Stellar Labs 30-2476 for VHF-High.
Quote:
I know that everything gets stronger at 58í. In the past all channels come in but I want to get the best going at 33í so that everything is better at 58í. I don't expect to see 12.1, I'm amazed that it comes in on the LG. But II'd like to see 3.1 & 5.1. All current reading are with the PA. I have seen 5.1 on the SDT recording 60 minutes and Salvation weekly since getting it about a month ago, without the PA. Some recordings have had breakups, some perfect.
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Old 17-Sep-2018, 1:19 AM   #24
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Atmospherics must have been really good last night for the LGTV. All channels were coming in trouble free even 12.1. I was watching 2 football games on 10.1 & 15.1. When there was commercials on both at the same time (more often then you'd think) I'd check out all the other channels. No tearing on any channel. The SDT tuner Channel 3.1 was stable 5.1 was flakey, no 12.1. I was able to scan and add 3.1 to the Hopper OTA tuner but not 5.1.

I like the dual antenna idea. Is the Stellar Labs 30-2476 secs as good or better then the VHF section of the 7698?
Many say that it is just as good. The instruction sheet says 10 to 14 dB.
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...vhf/dp/71Y5462

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/23...426.1504358738

https://www.satelliteguys.us/xen/thr...ntenna.373747/

Quote:
The only spec on the 30-2476 I read where someone said that it had a maybe useful UHF activity. Would that be a problem or would the combiner take that out.
It does have some useful UHF gain, but you want the UHF/VHF combiner (UVSJ) to remove the UHF signals from the VHF antenna so that they do not interfere with the UHF signals from the UHF antenna.
Quote:
Could I use my Channel Plus LPF-380 Low Pass filter 0-380 MHZ to take out the UHF signals before the combiner? Or would there be another filter I should put on along with the FM Trap?
You could insert the CP LPF-380, but it is not necessary because the UVSJ will remove the UHF signals from the VHF antenna.

Quote:
Watching the Y-Tube video on trouble shooting the 7698 they were taking about tying into the VHF section with a 300-75 transformer. If the Stellar Labs Antenna isn't as strong as the VHF section of the 7698 maybe I could do that.
The purpose of showing the balun transformer clipped to the wires of each section of the antenna in the troubleshooting video was only a temporary test to be certain that each section of the antenna is working OK before being combined.
Quote:
The antenna realignment has done wonders for the 12.1 reception, never seen at 33' before and perfect on the LGTV last night. But 3.1 & 5.1 have been problematic where they hadn't been at the old location. Black line in the attached picture is the old path. Is this a better path for the UHF stations or is there another better path that is different than the VHF path? That would make the dual antennas a really good idea.
https://tinyurl.com/ya5bvex4
That link doesn't work; it takes me to my Amazon album, which I don't have. Anyway, the best path is the one that gives the best signals. The path for your signals can get skewed because the signals are scattered by the rough terrain.
Quote:
If I were to do this what combiner would you suggest?
My first choice would be the Antennas Direct UNF/VHF combiner because it has low loss and a plastic housing for protection from the weather. It is in short supply:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store..._combiner.html
ADTech says they will have some more soon.

The Radio Shack UVSJ is good, but it doesn't have a housing:
https://www.radioshack.com/products/...itter-combiner

Avoid the Stellar Labs 33-2230, it isn't as good; higher losses.
Quote:
How much separation should there be between antennas? Since height has been a factor with 12.1 I'd think I'd have the VHF on top.
About 3 to 5 feet is usually enough.

https://www.tonercable.com/pdf/antenna.pdf





Quote:
I know that the cable length from both antennas to the combiner should be the same.
Not true; it is only necessary when two identical antennas (2 UHF or 2 VHF) aimed in the same direction are being combined with a splitter in reverse.
Quote:
This is an interesting idea if having the antennas pointed in slightly different direction would improve results.
The "right" way is the way that works the best.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 17-Sep-2018 at 2:16 AM.
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Old 17-Sep-2018, 5:25 PM   #25
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
See if this link works for the paths picture.

https://tinyurl.com/y93d59y3

Does it matter which antenna is on top?
The link works fine.



Most people put the UHF on top because VHF signals can bend down a little better in rough terrain, but you can do it the way you want.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 17-Sep-2018 at 5:54 PM.
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Old 17-Sep-2018, 8:01 PM   #26
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Is the only difference between the Antennas Direct and the Radio Shack UVSJ the plastic housing or is there a performance difference also?
They both perform well, based on the samples I tested. I ordered two of the AD UVSJs and one had the label upside down, but it worked OK. (Monday morning production)











Quote:
I'd end up taking the Antennas Direct UVSJ out of the box because I'm thinking of putting the FM Trap, PA, UVSJ and anything else that might get added into my own box. That way I can tie everything together with joiners instead of having all sorts of cable lengths up there. It would be protected from our biblical rain amounts but more importantly from our blaring sun. I'm looking at possibly adding a little solar panel to drive a vent fan.

I'm waiting to hear from Denny, I shot him a note to see what his input would be. The more I think of the separate UHF/VHF antenna's the more I like the idea. 12.1 is still the weakest signal coming in and has been affected by height in the past so I would probably but the VHF on top. Seems 5.1 (24) is the weakest of the UHF. Is the Red line in the signal path picture the path for 12.1 or South Mountain?
The red line is an approximation based on where thre green line crosses the house across the street.
Quote:
Is there a separate path for 5.1?

I'm thinking I'd point VHF to 12.1 and UHF to 5.1. I don't know how those path images were generated.
I don't see a 5.1 (24), but I do see a 3.1 (24) and a 5.1 (17). Please use the callsign.



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Last edited by rabbit73; 17-Sep-2018 at 8:23 PM.
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Old 17-Sep-2018, 10:26 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Man, I don't see why I have soooo much trouble keeping the damn channel numbers straight. :-(

Point UHF to 5.1 (17) CBS KPHO-DT
Point VHF to 12.1 (12) NBC KPNZ-DT

Maybe that's why I have so much trouble getting this to work. The mind is a terrible thing to waste :-)

Is the red line going back to the 12.1 transmitter or just to South Mountain (antenna farm)?
Thank you for the callsigns. NBC is KPNX.

The main purpose of the red line is to show in an oblique "birds-eye" view where the signals from the SW cross the house across the street to help you with aiming.



I will try to show you the signal lines another way, but it will take me a while to figure it out.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 17-Sep-2018 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 18-Sep-2018, 1:21 AM   #28
rabbit73
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Here are the signal lines for KPNX and KPHO;



changing scale to zoom in on signal lines:



the two transmitters are very close together:



The above signal lines do not agree with the great difference you show between the green and black lines.



It is possible that the transmitted signal path can be scattered and changed by the rough terrain.



so let the tuner decide what is the best aim for a signal.
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Old 18-Sep-2018, 2:44 PM   #29
Nascarken
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Yes the seller's LAB antennas for hi vhf!!are kik ass when installing with one feed line
But if you do decide to go with that and the HDB91,on one feed line
Start with a spacing of about 31\2 ft 2, people one at the tv sets and one on the roof
To adjust the WITH between the two antennas and I have found out that you use
One hi vhf channel on a tv broadcasting tower's that are like about 50miles away
And the same for the HDB91,find the uhf,channel that is the same distance away.
And tune up the antennas by using your tv signal strength metter.and picture,for
Best results good luck with your antenna set-up!!!
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Old 18-Sep-2018, 10:22 PM   #30
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
The black line in the picture of post #25 is a result one guy on the TV, one guy moving the mast. We did that (my neighbor and I) a long time ago. The green line is where it is now which is producing results for 12.1 but the UHF’s seem to have been reduced. I’ve pretty much decided to go with the two antennas. I’ll start with the VHF on green and the UHF on black and go from there. A tool that I didn’t have then is the SDT tuner which is on the network. I can bring my phone up to the antenna and have eyes on the tuners signal strength meter which will make tuning much easier.
Signal strength is certainly important, but you want the maximum signal quality and 100% symbol quality.

Quote:
I’ll order all this stuff today or tomorrow, hopefully get it in next week for low altitude tuning and then get it back up to full height by the end of the month.

Thank you for all the help and invaluable information. Once it’s up and going (if I don’t have any more questions) I’ll get back to you with the results and pictures.
Thank you for the update.

Good luck with your project. I hope that you will see an improvement in reception.

Best regards,
rabbit
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Old 21-Sep-2018, 12:32 AM   #31
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
OK, everything is ordered, the last item is due on Tues the 25th. I did think of one more question. Should the antennas be level, tilted up or tilted down? When I put the current antenna up I did so with a level. Looking at it now, it looks like the front end is sagging down a little. Long view, it looks like it's level at the attachment point on the mast. Could be the way the mast is seated cranked down in the tower also.
Ordinarily, the antenna boom should be level, but at some locations reception is improved by tilting the front end up and even less often tilting the front end down.

Tilting the front end up sometimes helps if there is a hill in front of the antenna in the signal path close to your location.

Tilting the front end down is used when the ground in front of the antenna slopes down away from you. The antenna is mounted close to the earth and the antenna picks up the signal reflected from the slope.

Both the 30-2476 and the HDB91X have a tilt adjustment.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 21-Sep-2018 at 1:06 AM.
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Old 22-Sep-2018, 11:49 PM   #32
Nascarken
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Question Tilting the antenna fine tunel!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Ordinarily, the antenna boom should be level, but at some locations reception is improved by tilting the front end up and even less often tilting the front end down.

Tilting the front end up sometimes helps if there is a hill in front of the antenna in the signal path close to your location.

Tilting the front end down is used when the ground in front of the antenna slopes down away from you. The antenna is mounted close to the earth and the antenna picks up the signal reflected from the slope.

Both the 30-2476 and the HDB91X have a tilt adjustment.
When fine tuning with the tilt find your far away tower's first ??
It will take too person and 2 cell phone one on the roof at the tilt feature
Why the other person is looking at the pictures and the SIGNAL strength master for best results ???
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Old 26-Sep-2018, 10:21 PM   #33
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
I’m very happy with the results so far. All channels are now showing up on the SDT tuner. 12.1 is no longer the weak channel on the list. It’s interesting at the different paths that the UHF and VHF antennas are taking. So far mast is not extended. I might not need to go up to the full 58’. I’ve attached photos.

I’m assuming that since my utility box housing the PA & signal combiner is metal and everything is metal on metal I don’t need to be running grounding wires to the grounding posts on the PA and combiner. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

It’s going to take me a day or two to recover from spending the morning hanging off of the tower. If anyone sees any glaring errors in my setup please let me know. After a couple days of testing I’ll put it back to full height. Pardon the pictures, I was basically shooting blindly not being able to see the phone screen in the bright sun light.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wkj67nm5z...round.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v902pkqjht5ppe6/Roof.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/30puzth8v810diq/box.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tg7vj4uhjs...d_box.JPG?dl=0
Thank you for the report and the photos. Glad you are happy with the results.

If the mast is grounded and the coax shield is grounded, that should be sufficient.









Good job, niv!
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Last edited by rabbit73; 26-Sep-2018 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 27-Sep-2018, 1:05 PM   #34
JoeAZ
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Wonderful, Great News!!!!!
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Old 5-Oct-2018, 2:12 PM   #35
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Mission Accomplished! I delayed extending the mast because of hurricane Rosa remnants due to pass through the Phoenix area. Turned into 2 days of gentle rain unlike the very active monsoon season we had this year. The News makes it sound like Phoenix is flooding, I think one neighborhood had the sewers back up because they aren’t used to getting 2 inches of rain so every news crew descended on that location :-)

All tuners are getting good strong signals, even the crapy Vizio TV tuners are picking up all channels, something I wasn’t really expecting. Height is 52’, went from the piano wire type guy wires to a vinyl rope which is braided wire incased in plastic. It was a challenge finding something to cut it so I’m not worried about the antenna blowing down.

Thank you to everyone who helped with the much needed advice. Especially rabbit73 who has been relaying my messages. I wish I could participate in the forum directly, being that it’s going on 3 months now waiting on activation I don’t guess that is going to happen.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sz73dxx7fw..._3430.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/29zfoupmmw..._3431.jpg?dl=0




Thank you for the update and the photos. Looking good, niv!
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Last edited by rabbit73; 5-Oct-2018 at 2:50 PM.
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Old 5-Oct-2018, 3:47 PM   #36
jrgagne99
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What a great looking setup NIV! It is interesting that your directions for UHF and VHF are different, but who can argue with results?

Hopefully you get long life out of those mast-mounted components. When I mounted my antennas up in a 50' tree-top, i chose to run separate downleads to the base of the tree where it do the combining and amplification, for easy replacement in case of failure. But it looks like your mast is relatively easy to lower and make adjustments to signal conditioning equipment if necessary.
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