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Old 6-Sep-2018, 6:23 PM   #1
corvairbob
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help with tv8 in mi.

does anyone here live in the area of tv8 in grand rapids michigan's channel 29.1-2-3 ? i live 6 miles from the tower to the south west of it. and i have a deep fringe 4 gang antenna pointed towards that tower and it just will not come in on a steady basis.

the engineer is telling me it is atmospheric conditions that is making it drop out. my tv show an 87% signal but no programming, so i see the carrier wave but no picture. he says humidity and then he says temperature and then wind next i expect sun spots. most of the time it drops out it is raining. but why is this the only channel?

i'm thinking the tower is getting to me but the station is not getting to the tower all the time. i get all the other channels great and hardly ever have drop out issues with them. 29 just turns off like a switch but i still have signal strength.

so if there are others in my area are you have the same issues then they are just blowing smoke. i find it hard to swallow atmospheric conditions for just this station. the only thing i think is they are having issues with the signal getting to the tower.

thanks for any help on this one.
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Old 7-Sep-2018, 1:45 AM   #2
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You need to EXPLICITLY identify that station by its legal call letters, especially if it is a translator. If it's a translator, also explicitly identify the source station.



Also, generate a plot based on your exact location and post that link as per the instructions.
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Old 7-Sep-2018, 2:38 AM   #3
rabbit73
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Bob has previous threads.

If he hasn't moved, I think this is good (or as good as TVFool can get it):
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038ca707e6770



He started with combining "150-mile" antennas; now I think he is using an 8-bay with the panels aimed in different directions.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 7-Sep-2018 at 3:07 AM.
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Old 7-Sep-2018, 5:47 PM   #4
corvairbob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Bob has previous threads.

If he hasn't moved, I think this is good (or as good as TVFool can get it):
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038ca707e6770



He started with combining "150-mile" antennas; now I think he is using an 8-bay with the panels aimed in different directions.
===============================================
seems i don't get the notice i have a reply from this site for some reason i have it checked in the receive instant replies. don't have a clue why i'm not getting them.
===============================================
thanks rabbit yes i have 2 antennas on each end ot my roof. the south one pointed east south east and the north one pointed north east.

if i use one antenna the south one i get 13.1 29.1 35.1 54.1 and all the subs they have

if i use the north antenna i get 13.1 17.1 29.1 and the subs i lose 35.1 and 54.1

i can go without 35.1 but like 54.3 or the 54.1 selection

looking at the pointer i see first from the north going to the east
17-42
9=32
13-46-29
then south east
36
15-48-48-44-10
29
7
24-11-19-8=20-45
25-33-5
these are all going clockwise from north to south and the channels are sequenced in the lines i see form what tvfool says i should be getting depending on distance
if it helps i can send pictures of the antennas and then you can id them and there directions and also i have the antennas going the a 2 into 1 combiner and then a pre amp and then a 4 way amplified splitter. the tv in the garage i use for the signal strengths shows this

north antenna 13.1 normal 17.1 good 29.1 normal no 351 or 54.1 and subs
south antenna 13.1 good 17.1 bad 29.1 good 35.1 good 54.1 good and subs
both antennas 13.1 great 17.1 great 29.1 great 35.1 great 54.1 great and subs

every channel comes in for the most part great but for channel 29.1 that one drops out all the time and he says humidity or sun or temp or fog or rain or wind. meanwhile all the rest are still perfect. i go in the garage and run them on that tv and they all still have great signal and 201 and subs are gone. but it show a strong carrier for that station. so i'm thinking they are not getting there signal to the transmitter.

does this help you at all. if you want pictures let me know. thanks bob p.
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Old 8-Sep-2018, 1:01 AM   #5
Tower Guy
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There are two channel 29s. One in Grand Rapids and one in Muskegon. They can interfere with each other, especially when combining antennas aimed in different directions. In addition, the channel scan function of your tv may be confused because both channel 29s send their PSIP as channel 29.
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Old 11-Sep-2018, 2:57 AM   #6
corvairbob
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i was thinking that if i use one antenna at a time i get the channel but the strength is different. the north tower is like 6 miles away the south tower is 30 miles away so i hoping the other tower takes over the signal.

what is puzzling is those antenna are said to have 60 mile range but then i find out that the digital signal doesn't like to go that far so that makes me thing i'm not getting much of a signal from the east on channel 29.x

plus wouldn't i find ghosting because of the multi path of that signal? i'm not seeing that yet. thanks for that help
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Old 11-Sep-2018, 1:37 PM   #7
Tower Guy
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Both channel 29s are low power stations, so the range is much less than full power stations.

Multipath in digital can not be seen as ghosting, it simply prevents any reception.

Mileage ranges on antennas is simply advertising puffery. You can’t design or troubleshoot a problem based on best-case reception.

If you aim an antenna at either 29 WITHOUT another aimed at the second 29 and rescan, what happens?

Last edited by Tower Guy; 11-Sep-2018 at 1:40 PM.
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Old 11-Sep-2018, 6:46 PM   #8
corvairbob
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Both channel 29s are low power stations, so the range is much less than full power stations. i guessed that but what is so strange is that other low poer stations further away never have issues.

Multipath in digital can not be seen as ghosting, it simply prevents any reception. i did not know that thanks

Mileage ranges on antennas is simply advertising puffery. You canít design or troubleshoot a problem based on best-case reception. if that is so then why are they saying that on this site with the advertisers that has them for sale? i would hope that the sight would better police these sellers if they are selling items not what they are saying they do!

If you aim an antenna at either 29 WITHOUT another aimed at the second 29 and rescan, what happens? if i use the north antenna i get 13 17 29 and subs in the good range if i connect both the north and the south i get 13 17 29 35 54 all in the great range if i use the south antenna alone i get 13 29
35 54 in the good range and 17 not at all.


if that help you see what i'm up against. so with both antennas i get better reception and what is strange it 29 show in the tv signal strength in the 87% range but no picture and the others are in that range or a bit lower and good pictures.

sometime if i just have the south antenna connected i get 8 and 42 but they do not stay for the most part so i just don't count on those channels anymore.

thanks for the help
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Old 1-Oct-2018, 11:20 PM   #9
Statmanmi
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Hello fellow West Michigander Bob,

I've found that I can now post into the TVFool forums. I don't think I ever received an e-mail that my userID on the TVFool site had been approved after I signed up about a year ago, but I'm glad I tried a post last month.

I live 44 miles almost straight east from you, but have also helped a friend with his antenna in Ravenna. It was a year ago that I started really geeking out on getting OTA (over-the-air) TV antennas going, first for myself at my relatively-new location east of Cedar Springs and west of Greenville--then by helping a few others. If your curious later to read more about my particular antenna set-up, this avsforum post describes it: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...l#post55665130

I've read through your thread here (from Sept. 2018), and also your year 2016 thread where Rabbit73 and others offered you some assistance.

Maybe some of my following thoughts and questions will help you, and no big deal if they don't.


I'm understanding that you're wanting to reliably receive channels 29.1,2,&3. Do you ever also receive 15.1,2,&3? The 29 channels are just duplicating the 15 ones, but from the closer tower to Muskegon and at a lower power. Thus, if you can get the 15.1,2,&3 to come in always, you wouldn't need the 29s. 15 and 29 are both station WXSP, with MyNetworkTV as the .1 subchannel.


In the 2016 thread, you included your address--and haven't removed it yet. Rabbit73 likely zoomed in on the Google view like I have, and he asked then if you have any of your antennas pointed into the large trees that seem to be shown at each end of your home.


Trees and their leaves don't play kind at all with TV signals. Especially when the leaves get wet and move around in wind. You mentioned that you lose the signal during rain, so that has me thinking that the trees are some of the situation you face.


Have you ever tried a single antenna from your garage roof or southern end of the house roof, pointed southeast? I suggest that location, as that might be your best shot at having the trees the furthest away from your antenna. Looks like you'd still have trees in other neighbors' yards, but it would avoid those on your own lot.


Trying a single antenna would eliminate the likely loss of signal occurring with your combiner use. Lots of us find how to point a single antenna and still get TV signals from all around. It's usually a matter of pointing at the weakest station and seeing if the others still come in enough for the TVs and devices to decode.


You had mentioned channel 49 in your 2016 thread. Realize that they've been having problems, and only recently noted with the FCC that they're back on the air at only one third of their usual low power:

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...65b09ceb9e07df

If that link doesn't work, then use this one, and go to the bottom where there's a link shown as "WMKG REASON FOR STA":

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...ct-attachments


Do you ever get NBC at all (WOOD TV) on any TV? It could reach you from two places: That same tower 6 miles northeast from you like 29.1, but not making it through the trees all the time. Or, it might be more reliable to get it to come in from their main, full-power tower by Gun Lake (south of Grand Rapids), so southeast from you--through the best available gap in the close-by trees. Just like with trying for 15.1,2,&3 instead of the 29s.


You asked in 2016 how there could be 3 different sources of Fox 17 shown on the charts. That station has many different towers, more than either WOOD TV or WXSP. Yet their management chooses to have almost all their extra low-power towers map into TVs as 17.x--confusing, isn't it?


You also mentioned about having a preamp and distribution amplifier. If you do try just a single antenna again, I'd suggest first not having the preamp nor distribution amplifier in place. Just have the antenna's downlead coax go to a single TV. If you can get a picture coming through from most of your problem channels, then add the preamp in (what brand is it)? Note that it's not too common that people need both a preamp up on the mast, and a distribution amp further down the line--usually it's only one or the other.


I hope some of my thoughts help you Bob. I and others are interested in hearing back on any progress you make.

Cheers!
Statmanmi
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Old 2-Oct-2018, 2:16 PM   #10
corvairbob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Statmanmi View Post
Hello fellow West Michigander Bob,

I've found that I can now post into the TVFool forums. I don't think I ever received an e-mail that my userID on the TVFool site had been approved after I signed up about a year ago, but I'm glad I tried a post last month.

I live 44 miles almost straight east from you, but have also helped a friend with his antenna in Ravenna. It was a year ago that I started really geeking out on getting OTA (over-the-air) TV antennas going, first for myself at my relatively-new location east of Cedar Springs and west of Greenville--then by helping a few others. If your curious later to read more about my particular antenna set-up, this avsforum post describes it: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...l#post55665130

I've read through your thread here (from Sept. 2018), and also your year 2016 thread where Rabbit73 and others offered you some assistance.

Maybe some of my following thoughts and questions will help you, and no big deal if they don't.


I'm understanding that you're wanting to reliably receive channels 29.1,2,&3. Do you ever also receive 15.1,2,&3? The 29 channels are just duplicating the 15 ones, but from the closer tower to Muskegon and at a lower power. Thus, if you can get the 15.1,2,&3 to come in always, you wouldn't need the 29s. 15 and 29 are both station WXSP, with MyNetworkTV as the .1 subchannel.


In the 2016 thread, you included your address--and haven't removed it yet. Rabbit73 likely zoomed in on the Google view like I have, and he asked then if you have any of your antennas pointed into the large trees that seem to be shown at each end of your home.


Trees and their leaves don't play kind at all with TV signals. Especially when the leaves get wet and move around in wind. You mentioned that you lose the signal during rain, so that has me thinking that the trees are some of the situation you face.
the antenna on the north on my roof is not looking between the trees at the 29 tower. that tower is about 6 mile north and i can just about see it. for 29 and the 17 tower is
more towards wolf lake from me and that is thru the trees and i also never have issues. so 29 must just be a low power. channel. steve at tv8 told me they
updated the tower system this past june so it is working much better. i think they started low power until they started to get complaints and then upped the power.


Have you ever tried a single antenna from your garage roof or southern end of the house roof, pointed southeast? I suggest that location, as that might be your best shot at having the trees the furthest away from your antenna. Looks like you'd still have trees in other neighbors' yards, but it would avoid those on your own lot.
stateman. tried on garage roof but the cable was to long to run and i did not want to have the cable in the air no good way to support it

Trying a single antenna would eliminate the likely loss of signal occurring with your combiner use. Lots of us find how to point a single antenna and still get TV signals from all around. It's usually a matter of pointing at the weakest station and seeing if the others still come in enough for the TVs and devices to decode.
tried single antenna on the north and the south. i have now installed since 2016 the same antenna both on the north side on the roof pointing to the north northeast.
and one on the south pointing south east. and the uhf for 35.1,2,3,4,5
when i used the north antenna i got 17 29 13 when i used the south i got 13 35 54
so i need both to get 13 17 29 35 54 once in awhile 8 shows up. i know 15 is the same as 29


You had mentioned channel 49 in your 2016 thread. Realize that they've been having problems, and only recently noted with the FCC that they're back on the air at only one third of their usual low power:
bud owns 49 now 39 and has it running but now all the time and because it is running so low on power my antennas can't get it even in the fringe and they are 3
miles to the south


https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...65b09ceb9e07df

If that link doesn't work, then use this one, and go to the bottom where there's a link shown as "WMKG REASON FOR STA":

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...ct-attachments


Do you ever get NBC at all (WOOD TV) on any TV? It could reach you from two places: That same tower 6 miles northeast from you like 29.1, but not making it through the trees all the time. Or, it might be more reliable to get it to come in from their main, full-power tower by Gun Lake (south of Grand Rapids), so southeast from you--through the best available gap in the close-by trees. Just like with trying for 15.1,2,&3 instead of the 29s.
now and then 8 comes in as 8 but they are also 29 and they are working to improve that north east tower. i'm not a first name basis with steve the engineer there
one thing i have pointing to the south east is a power xformer on the pole just about directly in my way. this past aug that xformer burn out and they replaced it and
the channels now are better. so that xformer must have been disturbing the signal.


You asked in 2016 how there could be 3 different sources of Fox 17 shown on the charts. That station has many different towers, more than either WOOD TV or WXSP. Yet their management chooses to have almost all their extra low-power towers map into TVs as 17.x--confusing, isn't it?


You also mentioned about having a preamp and distribution amplifier. If you do try just a single antenna again, I'd suggest first not having the preamp nor distribution amplifier in place. Just have the antenna's downlead coax go to a single TV. If you can get a picture coming through from most of your problem channels, then add the preamp in (what brand is it)? Note that it's not too common that people need both a preamp up on the mast, and a distribution amp further down the line--usually it's only one or the other.
did that as i have a tv in the garage on the wall next to my antenna system. and that one show the power with one button on the channel being use at the time and
i have tried all the things you talk about. the mast amp did not work at all i have a channel master preamp and all i use now is the power supply it works better that
the amp system why take a guess. and i have a distribution amp to have 4 tv's in use


I hope some of my thoughts help you Bob. I and others are interested in hearing back on any progress you make.

Cheers!
Statmanmi
statmanmi. thanks for this help here is the reply

Trees and their leaves don't play kind at all with TV signals. Especially when the leaves get wet and move around in wind. You mentioned that you lose the signal during rain, so that has me thinking that the trees are some of the situation you face.
the antenna on the north on my roof is not looking thru the trees at the tower. that tower is about 6 mile north and i can just about see it. for 29 and the 17 tower is
more towards wolf lake form me and that is thru the trees and i also never have issues. so 29 must just be a low power. channel. steve at tv8 told me they
updated the tower system this past june so it is working much better. i think they started low power until they started to get complaints and then upped the power.


Have you ever tried a single antenna from your garage roof or southern end of the house roof, pointed southeast? I suggest that location, as that might be your best shot at having the trees the furthest away from your antenna. Looks like you'd still have trees in other neighbors' yards, but it would avoid those on your own lot.
stateman. tried on garage roof but the cable was to long to run and i did not want to have the cable in the air no good way to support it

Trying a single antenna would eliminate the likely loss of signal occurring with your combiner use. Lots of us find how to point a single antenna and still get TV signals from all around. It's usually a matter of pointing at the weakest station and seeing if the others still come in enough for the TVs and devices to decode.
tried single antenna on the north and the south. i have now installed since 2016 the same antenna both on the north side on the roof pointing to the north northeast.
and one on the south pointing south east. and the uhf for 35.1,2,3,4,5
when i used the north antenna i got 17 29 13 when i used the south i got 13 35 54
so i need both to get 13 17 29 35 54 once in awhile 8 shows up. i know 15 is the same as 29


You had mentioned channel 49 in your 2016 thread. Realize that they've been having problems, and only recently noted with the FCC that they're back on the air at only one third of their usual low power:
bud owns 49 now 39 and has it running but now all the time and because it is running so low on power my antennas can't get it even in the fringe and they are 3
miles to the south


https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...65b09ceb9e07df

If that link doesn't work, then use this one, and go to the bottom where there's a link shown as "WMKG REASON FOR STA":

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...ct-attachments


Do you ever get NBC at all (WOOD TV) on any TV? It could reach you from two places: That same tower 6 miles northeast from you like 29.1, but not making it through the trees all the time. Or, it might be more reliable to get it to come in from their main, full-power tower by Gun Lake (south of Grand Rapids), so southeast from you--through the best available gap in the close-by trees. Just like with trying for 15.1,2,&3 instead of the 29s.
now and then 8 comes in as 8 but they are also 29 and they are working to improve that north east tower. i'm not a first name basis with steve the engineer there
one thing i have pointing to the south east is a power xformer on the pole just about directly in my way. this past aug that xformer burn out and they replaced it and
the channels now are better. so that xformer must have been disturbing the signal.


You asked in 2016 how there could be 3 different sources of Fox 17 shown on the charts. That station has many different towers, more than either WOOD TV or WXSP. Yet their management chooses to have almost all their extra low-power towers map into TVs as 17.x--confusing, isn't it?


You also mentioned about having a preamp and distribution amplifier. If you do try just a single antenna again, I'd suggest first not having the preamp nor distribution amplifier in place. Just have the antenna's downlead coax go to a single TV. If you can get a picture coming through from most of your problem channels, then add the preamp in (what brand is it)? Note that it's not too common that people need both a preamp up on the mast, and a distribution amp further down the line--usually it's only one or the other.
did that as i have a tv in the garage on the wall next to my antenna system. and that one show the power with one button on the channel being use at the time and
i have tried all the things you talk about. the mast amp did not work at all i have a channel master preamp and all i use now is the power supply it works better that
the amp system why take a guess. and i have a distribution amp to have 4 tv's in use


I hope some of my thoughts help you Bob. I and others are interested in hearing back on any progress you make.

Cheers!


corvairbob
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Old 2-Oct-2018, 11:38 PM   #11
Statmanmi
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 6
Hi Bob,

You're welcome for the help. Those of us watching this tread learn more information from each of your posts.

See if I'm understanding correctly:

* Your garage is the unattached building kind of in the back yard, when I zoom in on your address on Google maps. No wonder you don't want to run coax through the air from on top of the house to the garage. (I had mistaken the lower southern portion of your home for being an attached garage.) Thus, improving reception their doesn't help you and the family inside the home.

* You can point an antenna north and not have trees blocking its line of sight to one of the Muskegon TV towers. But the trees are in the way for the tower to the northeast.

* When you point the other antenna to the southeast, it lines up with the power line transformer. (Glad they upgraded that, as apparently the older one was basically leaking radio wave energy more than the new one.)

* You have some sort of power supply in line, with it being closer to the antennas than the distribution amp.

Please advise if I have any of the above incorrect. It would affect how I ask these next questions. Please also don't be offended with these questions--I'm wanting to help.

> Are you sure you have the two TV towers north of you in mind correctly? Both TV Fool and the RabbitEars chart that Rabbit73 included above note that both the 17.1s that you might receive are at 18 degrees True North (around 24 degrees magnetic), and that the 8.1 (real frequency 46) and 29.1 (RF29) are closer to Wolf Lake, at 67 degrees/73 on a compass?

> Do you still have the RCA Yagi that you showed the picture of in the 2016 thread? If you point that to the southeast, and have only its coax go to the distribution amp (without the combiner), does that ever get you 8.1 (NBC from WOOD) or even 3.1 (CBS from WMMT)? Those would be their main signals from the Gun Lake area. It has the wider dipole elements that are needed for Hi-VHF, unlike the HDB8X that is optimized for UHF.

> If you drive around your neighborhood, what do you see up on other people's homes, and in what direction? My guess is that many have the longer yagis like you noted in your 2014 thread (the Winegard HD 7698P, although you likely wouldn't need one that long). I've geeked out so much on OTA that my teenage son rolls his eyes when I'm glancing at people's roofs and comment on their aerials.

Cheers!
Statmanmi
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Old 2-Oct-2018, 11:55 PM   #12
Nascarken
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To run Rg6 above ground frume point a to point b use STEAL CABLE ??
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Old 3-Oct-2018, 12:22 AM   #13
corvairbob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nascarken View Post
To run Rg6 above ground frume point a to point b use STEAL CABLE ??
i could but that run is like 50 ft and i don't want wires in the air. i can run them to the front garage as i have a 2" pvc pipe buried but to get that i then have over 100' i tried that and it really did not help. if you can see my garage you can see a tripod on that roof and i did have an antenna there for a bit but because it is only 20' above the ground my house was also in the way. so i gave that up.
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Old 3-Oct-2018, 12:50 AM   #14
corvairbob
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> Are you sure you have the two TV towers north of you in mind correctly? Both TV Fool and the RabbitEars chart that Rabbit73 included above note that both the 17.1s that you might receive are at 18 degrees True North (around 24 degrees magnetic), and that the 8.1 (real frequency 46) and 29.1 (RF29) are closer to Wolf Lake, at 67 degrees/73 on a compass?
i had steve from tv8 send me the address and inputting that into google shows it just north of the
muskegon river. i can go out to the road and see the end of quarterline road and then less that a 1/4
mile to the river so doing a measurement i got about 6 miles to the tower. fomt my house

tv8 channel 8.1 is to the east and that power pole must not let it come thru all the time. in the mornings
it comes in athen as the sun goes up that station goes away.


> Do you still have the RCA Yagi that you showed the picture of in the 2016 thread? If you point that to the southeast, and have only its coax go to the distribution amp (without the combiner), does that ever get you 8.1 (NBC from WOOD) or even 3.1 (CBS from WMMT)? Those would be their main signals from the Gun Lake area. It has the wider dipole elements that are needed for Hi-VHF, unlike the HDB8X that is optimized for UHF.
i have that but if i take it out of the system tv35 and 54 fail to come in for me. and 3 is just
possible.
i one time tried to just use 1 antenna and rotate it but then everytime i did i had to re scan. that was
just a pain. none of my tvs seem to be able to let me punch in the channel and have it remain in the
tuner. so i would have to punch them all the time. no i can do that i guess but they don't have the .
for the sub digit.




> If you drive around your neighborhood, what do you see up on other people's homes, and in what direction? My guess is that many have the longer yagis like you noted in your 2014 thread (the Winegard HD 7698P, although you likely wouldn't need one that long). I've geeked out so much on OTA that my teenage son rolls his eyes when I'm glancing at people's roofs and comment on their aerials.
i drive around but i do not see any antennas on any roofs. in my area. there may be a few i have
not yet seen any



so now it seems i can't get pictures uploaded here like before if i can figure that out will send some along.
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