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Old 11-Jul-2012, 7:01 PM   #1
pico
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Advice on one substation channel...

Last time I posted TVfool here gave me some wonderful advice and I've been a happy camper since. I we directed to buy a RCA ANT751 and it's wonderful. There are only two other channels I would like to get and one of them seems like I should. I'll paste my profile.... http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9900d1c981d706
The situation is there is a VHF station and substation KCWX Channels 5 & 8. I moved the antenna various positions and it's 15 ft high on the roof. All other major channels are fine and clear. The one that baffle me is channel 8 13 miles away. Although my novice experience tells me that it's VHF and 2 Edge path. As far as VHF channels i notice the dBm chart at bottom is high. The other VHF channels I get are receptive but lower dBm. Is the VHF part of the antenna weak? Any suggestions? thanks
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 7:49 PM   #2
signals unlimited
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DTV/cell phone reception advice and products

The signal is strong but due to the refraction from the near by hill you are most likly in a multipath situation. I would try moving the antenna up 12" at a clip while moving left and right around 20-30 degrees from dead aim at a time. Somewhere in that range and within three feet you may produce the channel. If not you may need an extra 10 to 15 feet of heigth. It's there...somewhere!

If there is strong FM near by try an FM trap before you try the above.
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 11:29 PM   #3
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

KCWX has a construction permit to transmit on channel 8 but has not done so yet.

So that leaves KCWX channel 5 to receive.

The ANT751 does not have the capability to receive channel 5 unless the signal is real strong.

The ANT751 is designed to receive channels 7 thru 51 the best.

The channel 5 signal is on the weak side.

My suggestion is to install a antenna that receives channels 2 thru 51.

Install a Winegard HD7000R antenna aimed at about 346 degree magnetic compass reading.

There is another way to do it using the ANT-751 and a second antenna , --> But first tell me , how many Tv's are/will be connected. <--.


Also my research shows that.

KCWX Real channel 5 , Virtual channel (5.1) , is MyNetwork and This Tv , not the CW as the tvfool channel list shows.

And KMYS channel Real channel 32 , Virtual channel (35.1) is the CW and Cool Tv, not MyNetwork as the tvfool channel list shows.

Last edited by Electron; 11-Jul-2012 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 12-Jul-2012, 5:54 PM   #4
pico
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Thanks for the quick reply. I see what your saying there. I had already rotated and scanned the ANT751 in that direction 346 degrees did not pick up. I must say I also have a some trees to go through but the signal strength may be the first culprit as you say. Right now I have three tv's and mostly one is on and sometimes two at most. I get all channels great pointing antenna about 145 degrees.
I know that both KCWX Real channel 5 , Virtual channel (5.1) , is MyNetwork and This Tv and they show up on Titan tvguide broadcast zip code 78212 as virtual ch 2.1 and 2.2. The local cable services only show 2.1.Are you saying that this Real Channel 5 would be broadcasting both of these. Right now I don't get either one.
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Old 12-Jul-2012, 10:09 PM   #5
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

Your location has receivable Tv stations/channels all around the compass so can not use a Bigger All Channel Directional antenna to receive KCWX channel 5.

And the HD7000R is a smaller All channel antenna that will receive the Tv stations/channels in all directions , however the signal gain on VHF low band channel 5 is about 1.0 dB , my concern is that may not be enough.

KCWX 5 is a problem causer for your reception situation.

If KCWX would transmit on VHF high band channel 8 then the situation would be solved. The ANT751 would be fine.

My recommendation to lock in reception of KCWX is use a Separate large/big VHF low band channels 2 thru 6 antenna.

Install a Winegard YA6260 VHF low band antenna with a Winegard AP3700 preamp aimed at about 346 degree magnetic compass for reception of KCWX channel 5.

The antenna gain of the YA6260 is about 5.7 dB at channel 5.

This means running Separate coax systems from the YA6260 and ANT751 to each Tv location and having a remote control A/B antenna switch at each Tv location.
http://www.radioshack.com , # 15-1968 , or , http://www.mcmelectronics.com , # 32-4425.

When the extra wiring and splitters are installed and connected , the A/B antenna switches are channel surfing friendly. Push the button on the hand held remote control , change antennas and keep on channel surfing.

Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.amazon.com.

Last edited by Electron; 14-Jul-2012 at 4:18 PM.
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Old 12-Jul-2012, 10:39 PM   #6
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

The Bigger/Larger a Tv antenna is the more directional the antenna is in the forward direction and the more antenna gain the antenna has , that good for reception of weak Tv signals.

However more forward reception means less reception at angles to the antenna and back of the antenna.

Less reception at angles and back of the antenna is not good for your reception situation because the receivable Tv stations/channels 7 thru 51 are all around the compass.

The ANT751 is a small almost non directional antenna that does have some small forward gain but also receives well in other directions.

The small ANT751 channels 7 thru 51 antenna it is easier to find a compromise aiming direction that will receive strong signal strength stations in different directions , like at your reception location.

The YA6260 is a big forward directional antenna that is for reception of VHF low band channels 2 thru 6.
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Old 12-Jul-2012, 10:55 PM   #7
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

To find practical and useful information about Tv stations/channels.

Type variations of the Tv stations call signs in the google search box.

Examples: kcwx , kcwx tv , kcwx 5 , kcwx-tv , and so forth.

The 2 main practical and useful information web sites that will pop up are , wikipedia and rabbitears.info. .

Here is a wikipedia for kcwx that popped up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCWX.
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Old 12-Jul-2012, 11:11 PM   #8
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I agree, the HD7000R is not enough antenna to ensure reliable reception of the KCWX real CH-5 signal. The Winegard YA6260 paired with the AP3700 is a better choice.

I would like to offer that there is a way to combine the antennas into a single down-lead. The attached diagrams show how to connect a Low-VHF and CH-7 to 69 antenna into a common down-lead.

The two diagrams are different so that this arrangement can be built using a HLSJ that does pass UHF... or with one that does not. Diagram "Low VHF combining into H-VHF and UHF with broadband H-VHF port HLSJ.pdf" is for use with UHF passing HLSJs. Diagram "Low VHF combining into H-VHF and UHF.pdf" is for use with HLSJs that attenuate UHF signals.

This HLSJ is spec'd to pass up to VHF CH-13, implying that it may not pass UHF: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...-%28ZHLSJ-1%29

Here's an example of a UVSJ: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...nna-%28UVSJ%29
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 12:21 AM   #9
pico
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Ok thanks again appreciate the advice very much. I have checked WIki and the stations as in all of them when I first installed. So finally here I'm searching for digital ch 5 VHF with this one antenna which is virtual 2 so then the substations or other channel(s) would be 2.1 and 2.2 Correct? Also how bout them trees they do block a clear sight? The ant751 is the other way with clear sight and that's where the other VHF channels like KSAT and KLRN. Is it fair to say leave the existing antenna alone and dedicate the Winegard YA6260 paired with the AP3700 the opposite direction for that one station?

Last edited by pico; 13-Jul-2012 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 12:47 AM   #10
ADTech
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An HLSJ will pass all frequencies above the transition frequency (it's a diplexer, after all), so the complexity of the second diagram is unnecessary.
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 12:57 AM   #11
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Trees are more of a problem for UHF frequencies than Low-VHF. Still, can you tell us more? How tall, and how dense? What type trees?

Are there significant power lines and / or substations in the area?
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 12:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
An HLSJ will pass all frequencies above the transition frequency (it's a diplexer, after all), so the complexity of the second diagram is unnecessary.
Thanks ADTech
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 1:57 PM   #13
pico
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It's a pecan tree and some other various trees but one can peak through them. I would say about 30-40 ft. The trees are only between my house and the other house north of me then it's clear LOS. No power stations to the north of me. It's good to know that VHF is not as much affected. Actually a power station is southeast of me where my present antenna is directed but as I say all channel are good at 143 degrees. The power station is more like 110 degrees but the antenna is 20 ft high.
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 3:34 PM   #14
ADTech
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Following up on my previous brief comment, I dug up a frequency response curve for the Holland HLSJ that I tested a while back. As can be seen from the plot, the HIGH port extends all the way through UHF frequencies to beyond 1 GHz, the limit of the selected display. If tested on a wider frequency band, I'd expect it to extend well beyond 2-3 GHz with minimal insertion loss.

The plot line that begins on the left side of the screen is the pass band for the LOW port, the trace on the right is the HIGH port.

A UVSJ would have a similar plot as shown in the second graph for the Radio Shack 15-2586.

Hope this aids in the understanding of the function of diplexers.

Cheers
Attached Images
File Type: gif HOL HLSJ Freq Resp.gif (8.4 KB, 267 views)
File Type: gif Radio Shack 15-2586 UV Diplexer Freq Respons.gif (9.6 KB, 267 views)
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Last edited by ADTech; 13-Jul-2012 at 3:40 PM.
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Old 14-Jul-2012, 2:46 PM   #15
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Okay so with all the appreciated advice here now it looks like a Winegard YA 6260 and Ap3700 (is this necessary?)pointed 343 degrees. This will be channel 5 KCWX lo vhf but to wanting to invest and doing this I was asking if this will give both tv ch 2.1 and especially 2.2 which is the one I'm interested in otherwise one channel I may not go forward.
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Old 14-Jul-2012, 3:20 PM   #16
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

Both , wikipedia and rabbitears are showing KCWX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCWX.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...allsign=125710.

I made my recommendations with the YA6260 / AP3700 and the connections and the reasons why.

The other advisors made their recommendations.
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Old 14-Jul-2012, 5:01 PM   #17
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Hey Electron I'm with you but pardon my knowledge about these towers and channels I do really apologize for not grasping this. I guess what I'm trying to grasp is I know it's KCWX that will receive but this tower transmits two channels 2.1 and 2.2 as stated in the TVguides. I don't know how towers do more than one channel but maybe I guess that's why they are called substations? Other than understanding this as a novice if I get both channels at KCWX then I can proceed with the recommendations just won't do it for one of the channels.

Last edited by pico; 14-Jul-2012 at 5:15 PM.
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Old 14-Jul-2012, 5:56 PM   #18
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

The more Correct term is Sub Channels.

Saying Sub Stations , the word stations is misleading.

It is always a good idea to move in the direction of the more correct word and concept.

Not away from the more correct word and concept.

As an example , A question asker , here in a past post , said they have "one of those pizza pan antennas" .

I ask them to provide more information of what , "one of those pizza pan antennas" is.

They would not do it.


The old days of Analog Tv are all but Gone Now.

In the old days one Analog channel of 6 MHZ. could transmit only one tv channel.

Many people , in their mind and experience are living in the past and respond to Digital Tv as if it is Analog Tv with only one channel.

Digital Tv , in the SAME 6 MHZ.

Can put in 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , and even , 5 , 6 , Tv channels.


As an example.

Analog Tv |<--1 analog channel 6MHZ wide ----->|.

Digital Tv |<--multipul digital Tv channels ------>|. in the Same 6 MHZ.

Digital puts -->More<-- information in the same amount of 'space' as analog.


As an example.

Tv channel 15 will hold/contain only 1 Analog Tv channel.

However that same Tv channel 15 will hold/contain multipul digital Tv channels.

There must be No analog signal in the Channel 15 so that the digital signals can be put in the Channel 15.

Has nothing to do with this Tv tower or that Tv tower or some other Tv tower.

Many as in -->Many people are <--> Stuck <-- in the analog past.

Yes it is true that there is a , tv transmitter , tower , and a transmitting antenna , However.


And audio only and data can also be transmitted.

Last edited by Electron; 14-Jul-2012 at 9:18 PM.
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Old 3-Apr-2014, 11:57 PM   #19
pico
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Well I'm back and been very happy with my ANT751 and TVFool advice. Thanks. I just now ordered an AntennaCraft Y526 on sale to get that channel 5 VHF low band opposite direction. It appears to be like the Winegard YA6260 that was suggested to me. As you see in my thread an location profile nothing has changed. So first of all I'm going to install it by itself to see if it picks up channel 5. I read the advice over and over and still grasping to understand how to combine both antennas to one down lead. It's explained to use HSLJ and or UVSJ, combiners, or splitters etc. One antenna is CH 2-6 (I receive channel 5) the present one is CH 7-69 Hi VHF and UHF. As i read about these combiners it takes low vhf input and uhf input. What happens to high VHF (ch 7-13). I read about the Pico UVSJ but it states does not pass UHF. The only post that appears to make sense is #8 the second diagram from Electron. So does this mean that the only option is I actually use a HSLJ and a UVSJ diagram.
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Old 4-Apr-2014, 1:08 AM   #20
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Use one HLSJ and no UVSJ. The HLSJ will pass both High VHF and UHF on the H port.
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