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Old 11-Jul-2012, 4:50 AM   #1
Seaboy
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New to OTA, requesting help (double edge diffraction?)

Hello All,

Here's a link to my TVFool signal analysis results:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9900813f38ee50

I have a Clear Stream 2 (from Antennas Direct) outdoor antenna, currently installed (temp install) on a deck at a total height of 248 ft above sea level in the West Seattle area. There is 100' of RG6 cable direct from the antenna to my TV tuner with no disconnects or inline disturbances. I wrote temp install because I am still trying to locate the best area for reception, and the deck has been easier for me to iterate then my roof. Right now, the antenna is supported by an aluminum ladder, which may or may not be helping my reception. Going to my flat roof should improve reception (~10 ft higher), but my first and second attempts up there were worse then my several attempts on my deck.

I believe I have terrain issues and would like to understand double edge diffraction better, and understand how to best use the TVfool analysis in these cases. The deck is located on the NE side of my house, which is the correct side to "point" for the groups of towers that I desire to receive. There is a home and some trees direct to my North, but worse, a hilly terrain between me and the cluster of towers that I am trying to reach. Although I am not 100% sure, I believe that the height of the house and trees is outdone by the hilly terrain; I know from the TVfool analysis that I do not have LOS.

I would like to receive the following channels:
KOMO-TV 38
KIRO-TV 39
KONG-DT 31
KING-DT 48
KSTW 11

I currently get:
KCPQ 13, even though I am on the wrong side of the house pointing closer to 85 deg
KBTC-TV 27
KTBW-DT 14
*KUNS-TV 50 (surprisingly strong signal)
KWDK-DT 42
KWPX-TV 33
*KIRO-TV 51 (weak signal)
KUSE-LD 46

I put the two "*" above because I thought it was curious that I could receive those stations and yet cannot seem to obtain the other preferred signals. Channel 50, which has strong signal reception, leads me to believe that the other nearby towers in that general direction should also be obtainable.

I should add that when I try to point to the NNE (i.e anwhere 0 - 15 deg or so) I get overall less channels, and none of the ones in that NNE cluster). When I point to the NNE, I try pointing with a slight inclination to "see" over the house and trees, and I am wondering if this antenna must be oriented exactly vertically with no inclination. For some reason, going almost East and no inclination (85deg az), I get lots more channels, AND channel 50, which is the only thing giving me hope that I can eventually reach the preferred channels in that same cluster. I am thinking double edge diffraction is playing a roll here somehow, but I haven't a clue how to proceed.

To summarize, I have tried many attempts (inclinations and Az) to NNE with no luck, and am wondering if there's more science to the double edge diffraction, and if so where does science tell me to point?

Finally, and a little bit off of my intended focus, I would be interested in thoughts about just trying to get K47LG-D to my SW instead? I was told by an Antennas Direct operator that the station was probably not broadcasting anything desirable, but I think it might be another KIRO with a possible strong signal for my location. I tried calling a number that I found on the website, but I missed the business hours and will try that number again later.

Thanks in advance for any help,
Seaboy

Last edited by Seaboy; 11-Jul-2012 at 5:35 AM.
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 6:01 AM   #2
Electron
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

Get the VHF antenna upgrade kit from http://antennasdirct.com , and install it on CS2.

Aim the CS2 with the VHF antenna upgrade at about 20 degree magnetic compass.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

KBTC-TV 27 PBS , K47LG-D 47 CBS and RTV.

KCPQ-DT 13 FOX , KTBW-DT 14 TBN.

Are Strong signal strength and will most likely be received through the back of the CS2 with the reflector Screen in place.

If not then remove the reflector Screen from the CS2.


Mount the antenna above the roof in a manner that the roof does not block reception.

It is also a good idea to mount the antenna at a location that has the least amount obstructions such as trees and buildings and etc. .

How many Tv's are/will be connected??


Can find what programing is on a Tv stations/channels by typing variations of the - call sign - in the Google search box.

Example: , k47lg , k47lg-d , k47lg tv , k47lg-d 47 , k47lg 47 , and so forth.

The 2 main information sites that contain practical and useful information that will pop up are , wikipedia and rabbitears.info.

Last edited by Electron; 11-Jul-2012 at 6:53 PM.
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 6:44 AM   #3
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Thanks for your comments Electron. I have seen some of your other posts, and appreciate all the help you provide to the community.

I have a few questions for you:

1. I guess you are suggesting that the VHF upgrade kit will help with the UHF reception that I desire? If I am understanding your recommendation correctly, is it because the reflector can actually help in my case for VHF signals?

2. Do you have recommendations for how I can try and receive the channels that I desire? It's possible you may have mis-read my post, or I have not communicated it clearly. I am trying to get the following UHF:
KOMO-TV 38
KIRO-TV 39
KONG-DT 31
KING-DT 48
KSTW 11 (actually is Hi VHF, not UHF)

3. I am only connecting 1 TV to the antenna.

4. The call signs are what I used to google, and that's how I found out KIRO 7 and their telephone number, and I will follow up with them tomorrow, but an Antenna Direct employee told me that the channel is likely not a useful channel, for what its worth. (Crossing my fingers though!)

5. When I was on the roof, I tried probably around 10 different positions on my roof, but did not really have any luck for the channels that I desire. Hence my questions about 2edge diffraction. BTW, my antenna does not look like any of those on your link. Mine looks like a figure eight, with a a collector grid behind it. What I have been doing is facing the figure eight in the direction of the towers. It's just that I don't have LOS with my towers, so I have been slightly iterating and deviating and then rescanning my results. Just for discussions sake, the method I am using while on the roof involves 2 iPads using facetime, one at the TV, and one with me at the antenna looking at my TV's signal strenth as I reposition the antenna. So usually I just use that as the metric for reception, but I do the lengthy rescans a couple times during my overall effort to see if any other new channels come up (or go away). I am really wondering what 2edge diffraction means to me in terms of where the signals could be bouncing and how I might need to position / orient the antenna beyond the basics of LOS and obstruction avoidance.
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 7:27 AM   #4
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Rather than chasing after the KIRO translator on Vashon Island, K47LG, work on the signals from Queen Anne and Capital Hill.

You mention trying to see over trees and houses. Those tend to be significant obstacles for some. Are you aiming directly into a house or trees?

Electron's suggestion re. adding a VHF dipole kit is on the right track in that it should add CH-11 and CH-9, but I'd like to know how much tree and building obstruction you're dealing with. Getting over or around big obstructions may be challenging but it very often is more effective than just increasing the antenna size.

An example of edge diffraction can be seen during sunrise and sunset. With the sun below the horizon, some light is bent, some scattered by the atmosphere. You don't have a direct view of the light source, yet some of it's light makes it to your location. Radio waves behave in a similar fashion. Click on the call sign of a station listed on your TV Fool report and you'll see a graphical depiction of the transmitter on the left, terrain in the middle and your receiving location at the far right side of the graphic. KOMO-TV 38 (from your TV Fool report) for example shows the transmitter on top of Queen Anne Hill, terrain sloping down toward Eliot Bay, then half way across the graphic, the terrain of West Seattle sloping back up to a major hill top followed by a second hill top close to your location.

The bottom line is, you often need a more directional antenna to reliably receive a TV signal when you're dealing with edge-path reception. The idea is, you want to receive only one copy of the signal, not several that come from slightly different directions due the scatter effect. Also, edge-path signal strength tends to fluctuate more than direct line of sight. Again, an antenna with higher gain and directivity is useful in this situation. You start by aiming the antenna toward the station of interest, but fine tune the aim for best overall reception.

FWIW, the KUNS transmitter is still on Tiger Mountain. There's a construction permit to move it to Queen Anne but that's not yet done.
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Last edited by GroundUrMast; 11-Jul-2012 at 7:40 AM. Reason: Deleted question that OP already answered
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 7:38 AM   #5
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Just to be sure...

From the point of view of the transmitting antenna, the elements of the CS2 should appear to be the number eight { 8 } not the symbol for infinity { ∞ }. The reflector screen is behind, farthest from the transmitter.

Laying the antenna on it's side will reduce it's ability to receive signals.

When you need cleaner signal, more signal, etc., additional mounting height is usually the best solution... though often the most difficult and costly.
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 2:57 PM   #6
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

I am providing clear and straight forward information.

The VHF antenna upgrade kit is a antenna that is installed on the CS2 , for reception of VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

It is not to improve UHF reception of the UHF only CS2 antenna.

Your location has receivable VHF high band channels.
KCPQ-DT channel 13 FOX.
KSTW channel 11 CW.
KCTS-DT channel 9 PBS.
K08OU-d channel 8 3ABN.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...&callsign=6381.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...callsign=66997
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 3:09 PM   #7
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

The antenna MUST stand up right , laying the antenna on the side Will Reduce reception.

On the phone I have communicated with Antennas Direct about the VHF Antenna up grade.

Yes I know what Antennas Direct says about there own VHF up grade kit.

They call it a VHF reflector , it Is Not a VHF reflector.

The accurate word is receptor , however that sounds to much like reflector.

A much better discription is , VHF antenna kit or VHF antenna up grade kit.

Last edited by Electron; 11-Jul-2012 at 6:58 PM.
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 3:23 PM   #8
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

With the antenna aimed at about 20 degree magnetic compass , that will put KBTC , K47LG , KCPQ , KTBW , at the back side of the antenna.

Those Tv stations transmissions are Very Strong and will most likely be received even though the UHF reflector screen is on the antenna.

If as in - IF - the stations are not received , then remove the reflector screen.

By removing the reflector screen the CS2 will receive in 2 directions , the front of the antenna and back of the antenna.
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 3:32 PM   #9
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

The 20 degrees magnetic compass aiming direction is a compromise in between aiming direction.

So that the front of the antenna is in direction of the north group of tv stations and back of the antenna is in the direction west and south west Tv stations.

As always , the antenna reception aiming direction is 'fine tuned' by turning the antenna to get the strongest/best reception of the Tv stations/channels that are to be received.

Last edited by Electron; 11-Jul-2012 at 7:02 PM.
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Old 11-Jul-2012, 3:45 PM   #10
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->ALL<- Questions and Answers about Broadcast Tv Reception and More.

Antenna height and location is Important.

The best reception will take place with the antenna at a height and location that has the least amount or no obstructions in the way of the directions of the Tv stations transmitting antenna.

Such as , trees , buildings , hills , mountains , and etc. .

Under the word Path in the tvfool radar report are.

LOS=Line Of Sight.

1 edge = 1 hill or mountain in the way of LOS reception.

2 edge = 2 hills or mountains in the way of LOS reception.

Diffraction is the bending of the Tv transmissions that come across the hills / mountains that are in the way of LOS reception.

Moving the antenna to a location that has the most diffraction will improve signal strength.

That could be moving the antenna 1 inch , up , down , forward , backward , left , right , Or moving the antenna , feet in any direction.

Or even further distance.


Here are some but not all antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/Tripods%200703/4712.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com.

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing the word ronard in the solidsignal search box. http://www.solidsignal.com.


Here are some antenna towers , http://www.palcoelectronics.com/pe300.aspx.


Here are more but not all antenna masts.
http://www.3starinc.com/telescopic_masts_and_more.html

Last edited by Electron; 11-Jul-2012 at 7:07 PM.
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 2:32 AM   #11
Seaboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundUrMast View Post
Rather than chasing after the KIRO translator on Vashon Island, K47LG, work on the signals from Queen Anne and Capital Hill.

You mention trying to see over trees and houses. Those tend to be significant obstacles for some. Are you aiming directly into a house or trees?

Electron's suggestion re. adding a VHF dipole kit is on the right track in that it should add CH-11 and CH-9, but I'd like to know how much tree and building obstruction you're dealing with. Getting over or around big obstructions may be challenging but it very often is more effective than just increasing the antenna size.

An example of edge diffraction can be seen during sunrise and sunset. With the sun below the horizon, some light is bent, some scattered by the atmosphere. You don't have a direct view of the light source, yet some of it's light makes it to your location. Radio waves behave in a similar fashion. Click on the call sign of a station listed on your TV Fool report and you'll see a graphical depiction of the transmitter on the left, terrain in the middle and your receiving location at the far right side of the graphic. KOMO-TV 38 (from your TV Fool report) for example shows the transmitter on top of Queen Anne Hill, terrain sloping down toward Eliot Bay, then half way across the graphic, the terrain of West Seattle sloping back up to a major hill top followed by a second hill top close to your location.

The bottom line is, you often need a more directional antenna to reliably receive a TV signal when you're dealing with edge-path reception. The idea is, you want to receive only one copy of the signal, not several that come from slightly different directions due the scatter effect. Also, edge-path signal strength tends to fluctuate more than direct line of sight. Again, an antenna with higher gain and directivity is useful in this situation. You start by aiming the antenna toward the station of interest, but fine tune the aim for best overall reception.

FWIW, the KUNS transmitter is still on Tiger Mountain. There's a construction permit to move it to Queen Anne but that's not yet done.
GroundURMast,

I am aiming the antenna with a slight inclination so (I hope) the antenna is seeing just over the house and trees. I actually have a photo that I will try to attach later if I am so allowed, and I can figure out how to do so. Actually, I have tried several inclinations, and I am certain that some of them cleared the obstructions.
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 3:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
I am providing clear and straight forward information.

The VHF antenna upgrade kit is a antenna that is installed on the CS2 , for reception of VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

It is not to improve UHF reception of the UHF only CS2 antenna.

Your location has receivable VHF high band channels.
KCPQ-DT channel 13 FOX.
KSTW channel 11 CW.
KCTS-DT channel 9 PBS.
K08OU-d channel 8 3ABN.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...&callsign=6381.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...callsign=66997
Electron,

Once again, thanks for your comments, as I know you have much to offer to the community. Your post #6 was clear, and to be extra clear, I do appreciate all your comments and intended no disrespect in my first response to you (post 3). I am just trying to focus on the desired channels in my original post, and I guess I can summarize now that you mean by adding a receptor, I should be able to receive KSTW CH 11.

Also, FWIW, I agree and have tried actually on my first attempts to get a compromise with Az in an effort to collect signals from the clusters to the NW and the cluster to the SW; however, after poor results of the NW receptions, I switched my methodology to specifically concentrate on the desired channels in the NW cluster (outlined in my OP).

Thanks again for your insights.
Seaboy
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 3:23 AM   #13
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A curious observation and question

Thanks for the responses on the edge diffraction.

Before I go on to my latest efforts, I have a curious question regarding what I outlined in my original post, and wanted to know if anyone could offer a response.

As I mentioned in that fist post, I actually am receiving CH 50, which although is not a desired channel, it is one of the weakest channels in the cluster of towers of which I am trying to receive. In fact, I think it has the same coordinates of Ch 38, which is in theory has a stronger signal. All of this, while pointing my antenna (way off) at near 85 deg W (in a compromise to get at that channel cluster). Any comments? Could this be attributed to diffraction as well? Or perhaps the CS2 having a sweep angle ~ 70 deg still allowing reception? A combination of both? And, more importantly, why not Ch 38?

Last edited by Seaboy; 13-Jul-2012 at 3:26 AM. Reason: Added last question
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 4:58 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaboy View Post
Thanks for the responses on the edge diffraction.

Before I go on to my latest efforts, I have a curious question regarding what I outlined in my original post, and wanted to know if anyone could offer a response.

As I mentioned in that fist post, I actually am receiving CH 50, which although is not a desired channel, it is one of the weakest channels in the cluster of towers of which I am trying to receive. In fact, I think it has the same coordinates of Ch 38, which is in theory has a stronger signal. All of this, while pointing my antenna (way off) at near 85 deg W (in a compromise to get at that channel cluster). Any comments? Could this be attributed to diffraction as well? Or perhaps the CS2 having a sweep angle ~ 70 deg still allowing reception? A combination of both? And, more importantly, why not Ch 38?
Local knowledge:

KUNS, real channel 50 is not broadcasting from Queen Anne Hill as indicated on your (and my) TV Fool report. It is still broadcast from Tiger Mountain, east of Issaquah. You and I both have to aim toward the east to get reliable reception of real CH-50 as with real channels 33, 42, 46 and 51.

I suspect the terrain, buildings and foliage in the direction of Queen Anne and Capitol Hill are combining to block and scatter more than indicated in your TV Fool report. TV Fool is limited to terrain modeling and has no access to data that would make estimation of foliage and adjacent building penetration losses possible.

The fix is likely going to be a combination of additional antenna mounting height and use of a higher gain antenna.

Your thoughts?
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 6:00 AM   #15
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Oops! You are correct and thanks for your patience, as you did indicate a tower still transmitting from Tiger Mountain. That explains a lot.

As for my thoughts:
Well, I have gone back to the roof, and with a little bit of excruciating patience and some luck, I have managed to receive ch 38! Now, I still have more to (try) and acquire, but I now have some hope. I have some obstructions that I will try to share in a coming picture, but I wouldn't think these obstructions to be a show stopper. However, I am anxious to read comments from members after having a chance to view the picture.
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Old 13-Jul-2012, 7:04 AM   #16
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It will be helpful to see what you have to aim at when looking in the direction of Queen Anne and Capitol Hill.

TV Fool predicts that I have a line of sight looking at KING, real CH-48. The predicted NM is almost 72 dB in the air. Still, the wind in the neighbors trees is enough to occasional cause pixelation or even a rare 'no signal'. All the signal meters agree that ther'se abundant signal strength during these events. The point is, Douglas Fir and other trees can be tough trouble to overcome. You're starting out with terrain in the way which reduces your signal by roughly 50 dB (that's a lot). So, trees can be very significant.

I don't think the obstructions are 'show stoppers' either... but they may take some extra effort to overcome.
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Old 14-Jul-2012, 6:28 AM   #17
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Finally, a picture

Ok, here's the photo. I am attempting to see over the green house to my North, and slightly East so that the antenna can see just to the right of those trees behind the chimney of that same house, yet still to the left of the tall trees further in the background. Comments? (For ref, I believe the house edge closest to the antenna is just over 70 ft or almost 22 meters; I wish I could say I know the inclination, but sadly, I don't recall)
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Old 14-Jul-2012, 6:25 PM   #18
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Your neighbors house and the tree/shrub just north of them are the two big obstacles that I see in the picture. Are you willing and able to mount an antenna high enough to clear your neighbors roof line?

It may be the photo, but it appears you're tilted up more than I would think you should be. Point at the top edge of the most distant terrain.
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Old 14-Jul-2012, 8:35 PM   #19
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That hill of solid rock is reducing and blocking reception.

Think in terms of getting the antenna , higher and higher and higher and higher.
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Old 29-Jul-2012, 7:35 PM   #20
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Sorry it's been awhile. I have been away on business travel, but I have tried again lowering the inclination and trying other locations on the roof. The results were perplexing and not always as expected. Some times when moving/pointing to/from a desired location I got unexpected surprises. For example, I was able to obtain CH 31, but then not CH 38 and 39, and when I would point a couple degs clockwise, I could obtain CH 38, but not 39 or 31. I think going higher may be the only answer; TVFOOL output shows I need up to 3 more dB to get NBC CH 48 ... the London Olympics! That's my goal for now, just that one channel, temporarily, until I can get a more significant mount that gets my antenna higher. Is there another antenna that I should consider that will increase my noise margin sufficiently, given that I can receive CH 31 (and want to get CH 48, +3dB more; without adding more height)? Does is surprise anyone that I when I can receive 31, I cannot also receive CH 38 or 39? (I have been re-tunning accordingly, just FYI)

Last edited by Seaboy; 29-Jul-2012 at 7:40 PM. Reason: Clarified request, by adding last 2 questions.
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