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Old 20-Nov-2014, 9:40 PM   #121
ADTech
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The only things that come to mind are a sat dish with the legs or perhaps a tripod with an adjustable leg or a non-penetrating roof mount. That kind of tripod or non-penetrating mount would be harder to find and would not be able to straddle the ridge of your hip roof, either would have to move out onto a flat but sloped portion of the roof away from the sat dish mount.
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Old 20-Nov-2014, 11:35 PM   #122
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
The only things that come to mind are a sat dish with the legs or perhaps a tripod with an adjustable leg or a non-penetrating roof mount. That kind of tripod or non-penetrating mount would be harder to find and would not be able to straddle the ridge of your hip roof, either would have to move out onto a flat but sloped portion of the roof away from the sat dish mount.
I know you suggested possibly moving the 91XG up to where rabbit is suggested earlier in the thread. What advantage do you see by doing that? In the projection model map using the correct coordinates I don't see much change either in signal strength or conditions. Just wondering what improvements you are aware of that the model isn't showing (since I might be rather difficult to get that aimed precisely if being moved). It would also necessitate the use of the RCA preamp as well wouldn't it (because of the longer coax run to the entry of the attic)?

Last edited by mulliganman; 20-Nov-2014 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 12:19 AM   #123
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Small changes in the simulator in physical location or height are generally irrelevant due to the limited resolution, both vertically and in horizontal (X, Y) space, of the digital data that represents the terrain model.

As the disclaimer on TVFool clearly states, "Please understand that this is a simulation and can only be treated as a rough approximation. Reception at your location is affected by many factors such as multipath, antenna gain, receiver sensitivity, buildings, and trees - which are not taken into account. Your mileage may vary."

After a certain point, practical experience has to take over from mere numbers since the numbers are of limited accuracy. I've learned (the hard way) that putting the antenna where its odds are the best is usually the most direct path to success. Shortcuts done for expediency or convenience too often will result in compromised results.
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Last edited by ADTech; 21-Nov-2014 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 12:51 AM   #124
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Quote:
Simply relocating the C2V from its current location is likely all you need to do.
I agree, your 91XG is going OK.

"if it ain't broke don't fix it"

Quote:
Barring that, simply moving the antenna to the rear edge of the garage roof
That's not far enough back.
Quote:
I'd even be inclined to try it on your deck if that gets you out from behind the neighboring house.
If I were there, that's what I would do. You would see me out there with your C2V on a 10 ft mast on your deck testing for uncorrected errors. I would want to know if the C2V in a better location would be enough. If you put up another UHF/VHF-hi antenna and it sends good signals to your Roamio, how would you know if the improvement was because of the change of location, or change to a new antenna?

If I didn't try the C2V on the deck, I would aim it NE out an upstairs window as a temporary test.
Quote:
I'd only consider the second one plus the HBU33 as candidates
The second is good; HBU33 or 22.....not much difference in specs.
CM3016 too big because it is for VHF-low.
Quote:
If that existing dish mount has support "legs" for a larger 18x24 dish, it's sturdy enough to install an extension pipe into it an raises the C2V up. Depending on the specific mount, you might easily get 5-8' of additional elevation which might clear the neighbor's rooftop.
Good idea; I didn't think of that.
Quote:
Let's say that dish doesn't have "legs" is there a mount that could be used in its current location that would give it enough height there to alleviate any issues? Just wanting to consider all the possibilities.
A 5 ft tripod mount with a 10 ft mast might clear the roof.
VMP TR-60 60 Inch Roof Mount Tripod for Antenna Mast
http://www.3starinc.com/60_inch_roof...enna_mast.html
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ount+vmp+TR+60
Solid Signal Availability: More Than Two Weeks
Amazon: Sign up to be notified when this item becomes available.
http://www.solidsignal.com/search.asp?q=tripod mount

TR-60 INFO:
http://www.videomount.com/pages/Sate.../TR-Series/154

TR-60 instructions:
http://www.videomount.com/pages.php?download_id=797

A 10 ft mast is expensive to ship. Some Radio Shack stores in your area can get you one:
http://www.radioshack.com/antennacra...l#.VG6gtIwo61t

Quote:
I know you suggested possibly moving the 91XG up to where rabbit is suggested earlier in the thread. What advantage do you see by doing that?
You would have to measure the difference.
Quote:
After a certain point, practical experience has to take over from mere numbers since the numbers are of limited accuracy. I've learned (the hard way) that putting the antenna where its odds are the best is usually the most direct path to success
Very true.
Quote:
My next question is regarding aim. How would the antennas be able to be aimed precisely (particularly critical for the 91XG) because its not like that part of the roof is able to be walked around on like where it is located now.
Interesting question. The initial aim can be done by using the green signal lines (90 degree vertical map, not 45 degree bird's eye) shown on the satellite map. They are based on true north, so you can aim the antenna at a landmark on that line. You can also use a compass with the magnetic azimuth.

I have found that the best aim for an antenna is not always where you have the greatest signal strength. I was doing some experiments using an Apex DT502 converter box that has two signal bars; one for signal strength and one for signal quality. When I rotated my CM4221 UHF antenna slightly to the right, the signal strength went down very slightly, but the signal quality increased a large amount.



As you have already learned, what good is a strong signal if it also isn't a high quality signal with few or no errors?

You are now a member of the Antenna Measurements Club, because you passed, with flying colors, the initiation when you did the attenuator measurements. When you increased the attenuation, the SNR dropped down to below 15, and you saw an increase in uncorrected errors.

To make the final aim of an antenna, increase the attenuation until the SNR gets down to about 16, which is just above the "digital cliff." This is where the aim is most critical. Then rotate the antenna slightly each side of that aim to look for a increase in SNR, and a decrease in errors.

The see how well your 91XG is doing, try the attenuator test in its coax line between the amp and the input of the AC7. Add enough attenuation to bring the SNR down to 16 dB. This tells you how much "fade margin" you have at that location to deal with changes in signal strength.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg douglas-b dual signal bars.jpg (56.8 KB, 726 views)

Last edited by rabbit73; 21-Nov-2014 at 5:04 PM.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 2:46 AM   #125
mulliganman
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I need the answer to the following questions:

O.K. So if I am understanding you right then I need an eavesmount and then either a 5 foot or 10 foot mast (if just moving the C2V) or a 10 foot mast and a 5 foot tripod mount (if moving both antennas). Is that correct?

And if trying the C2V from its current location a 5 foot tripod with a 10 foot mast? If possible, is there any way you can show me what this would like (like you did with the eaves mount) in a pm?

Is that all the materials I would need to provide whomever I call out for either location?

I need to see both to show the spouse. Right now, she is balking a bit at the idea of the eaves mount....

I can try the attenuator test on the 91XG and report back.

That Radio Shack 10 foot mast looks like it is on clearance for $5 in stores. I bet I can find a store that has one.

I have a lensatic compass. If I end up moving the C2V where is the best compass measurement to begin at?

Last edited by mulliganman; 21-Nov-2014 at 4:13 AM.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 4:12 AM   #126
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To see how well your 91XG is doing, try the attenuator test in its coax line between the amp and the input of the AC7. Add enough attenuation to bring the SNR down to 16 dB. This tells you how much "fade margin" you have at that location to deal with changes in signal strength.

I did that test tonight. The answer to that question is 21 or 22 dB. 20dB attenuation gives an SNR of 18 dB. 23dB attenuation gives an SNR of 15 dB.

So what does this mean? How "well" is the 91XG doing?
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 5:13 AM   #127
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Quote:
How "well" is the 91XG doing?
Well enough to leave it alone.

1 1/4" or 1 1/2" Galvanized EMT from your local home center makes an excellent and inexpensive mast. A 10' stick is usually around $10.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 3:32 PM   #128
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Any antenna mounting/remounting is going to have to be done by outside help as I am not skilled in that area and promised my spouse I'd stay off the roof.
Quote:
I need to see both to show the spouse. Right now, she is balking a bit at the idea of the eaves mount....
You have a very smart wife. She is looking out for your interests as well as her's. Treasure her.

For a happy marriage, it is important to consider the WAF, Wife Acceptance Factor.

The eave mount at the rear for the C2V would be more difficult to do, but it wouldn't be very noticeable from street. The 5 ft tripod with 10 ft mast on the garage roof for the C2V would be easier to do, but more noticeable from the street.

At this point, I'm fairly certain, but can't guarantee, that the C2V would do well on the eave mount at the rear. There are doubts about the tripod on the garage roof; it would depend on how well the C2V clears any obstructions. This is still an experiment.

The success of the Roamio installation depends upon a high quality signal from your antennas. It is now the tuner and recorder for 3 TVs. If you can't give it that, then you will have to change to another configuration where the Roamio is secondary, only for recording. You would use a 4-way splitter from the AC7 to feed 3 TVs and the Roamio.

I must confess, I have some reservations about your present configuration; it has no redundancy. If the Roamio fails, then nobody can watch TV, and nobody can record.

I'll try to do a "what it looks like" later. Would any of these images do the job?
tripod mount for tv antenna
https://www.google.com/search?q=trip...ed=0CAcQ_AUoAg

eave mount for tv antenna
https://www.google.com/search?q=trip...for+tv+antenna
Quote:
I did that test tonight. The answer to that question is 21 or 22 dB. 20dB attenuation gives an SNR of 18 dB. 23dB attenuation gives an SNR of 15 dB.
Good job on the test. The results are even better than I expected.

I agree with ADTech.....leave it alone.

If you put the tripod on the garage roof, I don't need to tell you not to put it in front of the 91XG, do I?

The tripod should be fastened to the roof by a roofer to reduce the chances of a leak. Better a leak on the garage roof than on the roof above the 2nd floor.

This is not an endorsement for Denny's, but he has a page
How to Install A TV Antenna Tripod Mount
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/1475651.html

If you put a non penetrating roof mount on the garage roof to avoid fasteners through the roof, it would need to have adjustable pitch; most are welded at 90 degrees vertical. Also, you would need to put some weights on it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=non+...A&ved=0CDYQsAQ

As ADTech said, your garage roof is not flat.



Quote:
I have a lensatic compass. If I end up moving the C2V where is the best compass measurement to begin at?
Use your tvfool report. This is your original report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d24362e8886d03

It shows 46 to 55 degrees magnetic for the C2V signals; try 50 degrees to start. Or, use a landmark from your 90 degree vertical view satellite image with the green lines to sight on.

I also ran tvfool reports with your exact address for the eave mount at the rear and the tripod mount on the garage roof. They also said 46 to 55 degrees magnetic. I will not post them without your permission.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg garage roof 1.JPG (37.1 KB, 612 views)

Last edited by rabbit73; 21-Nov-2014 at 5:31 PM.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 5:12 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post

I also ran tvfool reports with your exact address for the eave mount at the rear and the tripod mount on the garage roof. They also said 46 to 55 degrees magnetic. I will not post them without your permission.
It is fine to post them.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 9:31 PM   #130
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eave mount at rear:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d243b50c430506


tripod mount on garage roof:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d243741fc3993f

Quote:
O.K. So if I am understanding you right then I need an eavesmount and then either a 5 foot or 10 foot mast (if just moving the C2V) or a 10 foot mast and a 5 foot tripod mount (if moving both antennas). Is that correct?
Sorry, I'm having a hard time keeping track of the questions. I had to take my wife to the doctor at Urgent Care this morning.

You now have two choices:

1. eave mount and 5 ft mast for the C2V at the rear of the upper roof

OR

2. 5 ft tripod and 10 ft mast for the C2V on the garage roof

The 10 ft mast is inserted several ft into the top of the tripod mount

The 91XG is no longer involved because it is staying right where it is now.

Did I tell you what you wanted to know?

Last edited by rabbit73; 21-Nov-2014 at 9:50 PM.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 9:57 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
eave mount at rear:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d243b50c430506


tripod mount on garage roof:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d243741fc3993f

Sorry, I'm having a hard time keeping track of the questions. I had to take my wife to the doctor at Urgent Care this morning.

You now have two choices:

1. eave mount and 5 ft mast for the C2V at the rear of the upper roof

OR

2. 5 ft tripod and 10 ft mast for the C2V on the garage roof

The 10 ft mast is inserted several ft into the top of the tripod mount

The 91XG is no longer involved because it is staying right where it is now.

Did I tell you what you wanted to know?
Yes thank you! I will take a look at the picture links when I have a bit more time. I feel the same way about the questions. That's why I am trying to simplify what I need to know. I was mainly wanting to know if the 10 foot mast should be used if going with the eaves mount. The main reason being Radio Shack has them clearanced for $5.

Sorry to hear about your wife. Hopefully, she is doing better now.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 10:00 PM   #132
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I was mainly wanting to know if the 10 foot mast should be used if going with the eaves mount.
The eave mount is not sturdy enough for a 10 ft mast; 5 ft max for eave mount.

So, if the price is right, why not two, because I have another idea for you to try.

version in attachment 3 would be without rotor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tripod & mast (2)_1.jpg (17.8 KB, 287 views)
File Type: jpg eave mount 2.jpg (39.8 KB, 322 views)
File Type: jpg tripod & mast 3 (2).jpg (63.5 KB, 316 views)

Last edited by rabbit73; 21-Nov-2014 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 21-Nov-2014, 11:53 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
The eave mount is not sturdy enough for a 10 ft mast; 5 ft max for eave mount.

So, if the price is right, why not two, because I have another idea for you to try.

version in attachment 3 would be without rotor
I picked up a 5 foot mount and two of the 10 foot mounts. What is the other idea you have?

Last edited by mulliganman; 24-Nov-2014 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 22-Nov-2014, 2:30 AM   #134
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I picked up a 5 foot mount and two of the 10 foot mounts.
HUH? WHAT?

Do you mean mast instead of mount?

Quote:
I didn't know any of the options (eave mount or tripod with mast) involved the use of a rotor.
Neither do I.

That third attachment is a tripod with a mast inserted. You wanted to know what a tripod with a mast inserted would look like to show your wife. That is the closest image that I could find outside of attachment No. 2. Disregard the rotor. You don't need one for the C2V. The image just happed to have a rotor.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you.

Last edited by rabbit73; 22-Nov-2014 at 2:42 AM.
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Old 22-Nov-2014, 3:04 AM   #135
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HUH? WHAT?

Do you mean mast instead of mount?

Neither do I.

That third attachment is a tripod with a mast inserted. You wanted to know what a tripod with a mast inserted would look like to show your wife. That is the closest image that I could find outside of attachment No. 2. Disregard the rotor. You don't need one for the C2V. The image just happed to have a rotor.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you.
Oops! Yes I meant mast! No worries. I'm curious what the other experiment you referred to earlier was.

If I get an eaves mount, I'm leaning toward this one: http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-SW-00..._cd_al_qh_dp_t

It should be the same one you linked to at Solid Signal but I can get free shipping on it through Amazon.

Also want to be sure that if the C2V fails that the eaves mount and mast I purchased could safely and adequately hold this:
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD769...negard+hd7694p

Last edited by mulliganman; 22-Nov-2014 at 3:14 AM.
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Old 22-Nov-2014, 3:27 AM   #136
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What is the other idea you have?
Your wife is probably concerned about the appearance of the house from the street, because that is when a visitor gets the first impression of your home.

To me, all antennas are beautiful, but I can understand her feelings.

I am fortunate to have a wife that is very supportive of my antenna experiments. We just have basic cable. When the cable is out or when there is a power failure, she wants two things: a battery operated lantern to see by, and a TV to get the latest news about the power failure. We can get the news on a battery operated radio, but the radio doesn't show us weather maps.

My wife wanted me to setup an outdoor antenna (because one inside doesn't work) with a battery operated digital TV and has even been supportive to the point of buying me a signal level meter to measure the strength digital TV signals.

If your wife finds the present mounting options for the C2V unacceptable, I feel obligated to find one that is acceptable. Hopefully, she will give the OK for the C2V mounted at the rear of the house, but not visible from the street. If not, then you will have to go to plan B, with the Roamio secondary just for recording, and the TV tuners fed directly from a splitter connected to your antenna system.

There are two options that I have in mind:

1. A 10 ft mast mounted on the deck with the C2V on top. Another version of the same idea would be two 10 ft masts together, with the base at ground level, fastened to the deck at the midpoint, and extending 20 ft up from the basement ground level with the C2V on top. You could make a temporary test setup of this location to see what kind of readings you would get on your Roamio. Maybe you could even bring the Roamio up to the 1st floor TV so you wouldn't have run up and down stairs.

2. The C2V on a short mast that is supported by two wall brackets fastened to the rear of your house between the two windows on the second floor. The two wall brackets would need to be long enough to allow the C2V to be rotated NE. This idea could also be tested with a temporary setup by sticking the C2V out the west window at the rear of the second floor. Maybe you could also move the Roamio up to the TV there.

Your handyman should be able to do either of these.

Last edited by rabbit73; 22-Nov-2014 at 6:12 PM.
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Old 22-Nov-2014, 3:32 AM   #137
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The Winegard antenna and mount would work, and they have good reviews.

My only reservation is that the mount is only 18 gauge, not 16 gauge, but Winegard is a good brand.

The mount would not be seen from the street, just the mast and antenna.

But, you haven't received the official OK yet.

Last edited by rabbit73; 22-Nov-2014 at 3:36 AM.
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Old 22-Nov-2014, 3:52 AM   #138
mulliganman
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
The Winegard antenna and mount would work, and they have good reviews.

My only reservation is that the mount is only 18 gauge, not 16 gauge, but Winegard is a good brand.

The mount would not be seen from the street, just the mast and antenna.

But, you haven't received the official OK yet.
Yeah I am going to hopefully present the options again tomorrow. I know you mentioned about the gage before. What is the primary difference between the 16 and 18 gauge. Does one hold up way better than the other or something?

Last edited by mulliganman; 24-Nov-2014 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 22-Nov-2014, 3:57 AM   #139
rabbit73
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Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
Yeah I am going to hopefully present the options again tomorrow. I know you mentioned about the gage before. What is the primary difference between the 16 and 18 gauge. Does one hold up way better than the other or something?
16 gauge is thicker metal than 18 gauge; greater strength and less flexible. I could have read the specs wrong.

This antenna on the Winegard mount looks to be about the same size as the 7694.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Winegard mount & antenna.JPG (31.0 KB, 316 views)

Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Nov-2014 at 1:05 AM.
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Old 22-Nov-2014, 4:06 AM   #140
mulliganman
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post

If your wife finds the present mounting options for the C2V unacceptable, I feel obligated to find one that is acceptable. Hopefully, she will give the OK for the C2V mounted at the rear of the house, but not visible from the street. If not, then you will have to go to plan B, with the Roamio secondary just for recording, and the TV tuners fed directly from a splitter connected to your antenna system.

There are two options that I have in mind:

1. A 10 ft mast mounted on the deck with the C2V on top. Another version of the same idea would be two 10 ft masts together, with the base at ground level, fastened to the deck at the midpoint, and extending 20 ft up from the basement ground level with the C2V on top. You could make a temporary test setup of this location to see what kind of readings you would get on your Roamio. Maybe you could even bring the Roamio up to the 1st floor TV so you wouldn't have run up and down stairs.

2. The C2V on a short mast that is supported by two wall brackets fastened to the rear of your house between the two windows on the second floor. The two wall brackets would need to be long enough to allow the C2V to be rotated NE. This idea could also be tested with a temporary setup by sticking the C2V out the west window at the rear of the second floor. Maybe you could also move the Roamio up to the TV there.

You handyman should be able to do either of these.
Would those options not run into similar issues maybe with different objects or even the tree that ADTech spoke of. Just wondering your thoughts...
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