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Old 18-Nov-2014, 2:14 AM   #101
mulliganman
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Here are the 30 dB results (taken at 7:05 p.m. on 11-17):

Channel 3-1 52% signal strength, 21 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 60

Channel 3-2 52% signal strength, 21 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 162

Channel 3-3 52% signal strength, 21 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 78

Channel 10-1 50% signal strength, 20 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 6

Channel 21-1 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 210944 and fluctuating by the second

Channel 21-2 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 88064 and fluctuating by the second

Channel 21-3 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 57344 and fluctuating by the second

Channel 27-1 57% signal strength, 23 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0

Channel 33-1 35% signal strength, 14 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 35302 and fluctuating by the second

Channel 33-2 32% signal strength, 14 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 48538 and fluctuating by the second

Channel 33-3 35% signal strength, 14 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 417585 and fluctuating by the second

Channel 49-1 62% signal strength, 25 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0

Channel 49-2 same as 49-1
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Old 18-Nov-2014, 2:22 AM   #102
mulliganman
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Here are the 40 dB attenuator results (taken at 7:40 p.m. on 11-17):

Channel 3-1 52% signal strength, 21 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 81

Channel 3-2 52% signal strength, 21 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 114

Channel 3-3 52% signal strength, 21 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 156

Channel 10-1 35% signal strength, 14 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 75769 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 21-1 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 69632 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 21-2 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 151064420 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 21-3 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 69632 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 27-1 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 69632 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 33-1 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 75776 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 33-2 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 800768 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 33-3 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 862208 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 49-1 62% signal strength, 25 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0

Channel 49-2 same as 49-1
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Old 18-Nov-2014, 2:31 AM   #103
mulliganman
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Here are the 50 dB attenuator results:

Channel 3-1 52% signal strength, 21 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 60

Channel 3-2 55% signal strength, 22 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 21

Channel 3-3 55% signal strength, 22 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 48

Channel 10-1 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 180352 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 21-1 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected in the millions and fluctuating by the second

Channel 21-2 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected in the millions and fluctuating by the second

Channel 27-1 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 75776 and huge fluctuations by the second

Channel 33-1 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected in the millions and fluctuations by the second

Channel 33-2 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected in the millions and fluctuated by the second

Channel 33-3 32% signal strength, 13 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 38912 and fluctuations by the second

Channel 49-1 62% signal strength, 25 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0

Channel 49-2 62% signal strength, 25 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0
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Old 18-Nov-2014, 4:29 AM   #104
rabbit73
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Thank you for answering my PMs and for understanding my situation here in VA.

I think I haven't been getting enough sleep.

Excellent photos! They give me a much better idea of your antenna system. What was confusing me is that you have two roof peaks. The higher one on the west side, and the lower one on the east side above the garage.

Thank you also for the doing the attenuator tests so quickly. Your photos and tests were worth the trouble because they give us clues to solve your reception problem with the Roamio. I couldn't have done any better if I were there with you. Well done!

The 91XG seems to be doing well for Fox. I will need to take some time to study the results. My first impression is that the problem is NOT too much signal strength for the Roamio from the C2V, but a problem with the signal quality from the C2V; maybe multipath reflections.

Earlier in this thread, post 26, I thought the problem was multipath reflections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
IF the problem is multipath, and IF a more directional VHF-hi antenna helps, then another alternative would be to replace the C2V with a UHF/VHF-hi combo antenna.

IIRC, the early TiVo tuners didn't handle multipath reflections very well.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=TiVo+tuner+doesn't+handle+multipath+very+well
Later, I was convinced that the problem was signals that were too strong, based on what other Roamio users had posted. Now, based on your attenuator tests, I'm back to multipath.

That metal stack in front of the C2V couldn't be doing much good for the signals from the NE. I also wonder if they can clear the roof of the house to the East of you. If not, it would cause diffraction and scattering of the signals.

Any chance you can raise the C2V a little higher on that mount to clear the stack for a test?

Your antennas are in a "valley" between the higher roof on the west side of your house, and the roof of the house to your east. It doesn't seem to bother the 91XG because it can look out the end of the valley to Fox. But, the C2V can't see the transmitters from the NE because of the house to your east. How high is your C2V in comparison to the peak of the roof on the house to the east? Can the C2V see above that peak?

You probably will need to get the C2V out of that valley. The best location would be at the rear of the peak of your higher roof, mounted on an eave bracket. A 5 ft mast would probably do it if you didn't want to run the mast all the way down to the deck. A 10 ft mast would be needed if you wanted to stack the 91XG and the C2V on the same mast.

If you try the C2V in that better location, and it still has problems, then you will need to switch to a UHF/VHF-hi combo antenna for the signals from the NE.

The new coordinates you gave me are right for the 45 degree photo, but wrong for the 90 degree image. The green lines from the transmitters would also cross the peak of the house to the east for the 90 degree image if the indicator were moved to the location of your antenna. The default for the tvfool interactive map is 45 degrees for satellite images.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Location 3-45 deg.JPG (94.7 KB, 779 views)

Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Nov-2014 at 12:57 AM.
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:03 AM   #105
rabbit73
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Now, back to your grounding questions:

Quote:
O.K. Another quick question, is it safe to assume the antennas are not grounded after looking at the photos I posted?
I think it is safe to assurme that the antenna masts are not grounded, unless the dish guys grounded the satellite mounts. You would know if the coax shield was grounded.

When a dish was removed, did they leave anything like a grounding block? They must have grounded the coax some way.

Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Nov-2014 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:13 AM   #106
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Which side of your house is the power meter on?



Where do the coax lines from your antennas enter the house?
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File Type: png Meter.png (103.5 KB, 815 views)
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:19 AM   #107
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Quote:
Also, I am going to begin to look at bringing out an electrician to ground it (assuming it isn't currently grounded). Is the only thing I need materials wise a single grounding block?
It's only one grounding block, but it will accept two coax lines. There are also grounding blocks that only accept one coax line, that would be called a single. If your two coax lines enter the house at about the same place, then you can use the dual block. It should be mounted outside, just before the lines enter.

The electrician should be able to supply the 10 gauge copper wire used to connect the block to the house electrical system, as per the diagrams I posted.

Since you will have three 10 gauge wires, two for the masts, and one for the grounding block, an IBTB would make life easier for him. Most electrical supply houses will have it. Otherwise you will have to give him one to put near the meter.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ystem+bonding+

https://www.google.com/search?q=IBTB...w&ved=0CEQQsAQ

He gets to decide how to connect the IBTB to your house electrical ground.
PRINT THIS FOR THE ELECTRICIAN:
http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp

Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Nov-2014 at 8:57 PM.
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:20 AM   #108
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Which side of your house is the power meter on?



Where do the coax lines from your antennas enter the house?
The coax from the 91XG and C2V enter through the roof into the attic.

The power meter is on the east side of my home (the same side that I took the side photos of the antennas).

I was looking at the surge protector I have in the attic when I was doing the attenuator tests and noticed the "grounded" light was on. Not sure why though. I don't have any grounding blocks that I know of.
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:41 AM   #109
rabbit73
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Quote:
The power meter is on the east side of my home (the same side that I took the side photos of the antennas).
Good, that will make it easier for the electrician.

Quote:
I was looking at the surge protector I have in the attic when I was doing the attenuator tests and noticed the "grounded" light was on. Not sure why though. I don't have any grounding blocks that I know of.
That just means that the surge protector power strip was connected to a 3-wire outlet that is working like it should.

Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Nov-2014 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:46 AM   #110
mulliganman
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Any chance you can raise the C2V a little higher on that mount to clear the stack for a test?

Your antennas are in a "valley" between the higher roof on the west side of your house, and the roof of the house to your east. It doesn't seem to bother the 91XG because it can look out the end of the valley to Fox. But, the C2V can't see the transmitters from the NE because of the house to your east. How high is your C2V in comparison to the peak of the roof on the house to the east? Can the C2V see above that peak?

You probably will need to get the C2V out of that valley. The best location would be at the rear of the peak of your higher roof, mounted on an eave bracket. A 5 ft mast would probably do it if you didn't want to run the mast all the way down to the deck. A 10 ft mast would be needed if you wanted to stack the 91XG and the C2V on the same mast.

If you try the C2V in that better location, and it still has problems, then you will need to switch to a UHF/VHF-hi combo antenna for the signals from the NE.


I was looking right now at the peak of the house to the east of me. It is hard to tell because it is dark but looks to be close to even or so.

When you speak to the possible new location for the C2V can you link me to the bracket you are referring to? Also is there any way you could provide me a photo in a pm like before marked with exactly where you are suggesting?

Finally, do you think it would be better to get the antenna situation settled before diving into the grounding issue? I began looking and making a list of more directional UHF/VHF antennas I may ask for opinions on. Any antenna mounting/remounting is going to have to be done by outside help as I am not skilled in that area and promised my spouse I'd stay off the roof.

Last edited by mulliganman; 19-Nov-2014 at 12:47 AM. Reason: added info
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:48 AM   #111
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Now, back to your grounding questions:

I think it is safe to assurme that the antenna masts are not grounded, unless the dish guys grounded the satellite mounts. You would know if the coax shield was grounded.

When a dish was removed, did they leave anything like a grounding block? They must have grounded the coax some way.
I regretfully have to say I have no idea. I didn't do my own antenna installations.

Last edited by mulliganman; 19-Nov-2014 at 12:50 AM. Reason: clarified
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:56 AM   #112
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Want to make sure this is the correct IBTB: http://www.amazon.com/Erico-Products.../dp/B002FYN808
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Old 19-Nov-2014, 12:58 AM   #113
rabbit73
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That looks like the right one that was in the data sheet I posted, and it got good reviews. It's hard to tell what it looks like when it is still in the box!
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT1476.pdf

If you look at the end of the box you will see an image of it.

Satellite image with green lines added to post #104, as per your OK.

I have to leave now; will be back when I have more time.

Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Nov-2014 at 1:09 AM.
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Old 20-Nov-2014, 1:56 AM   #114
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Earlier in the thread we were thinking about moving the 91XG to a better location, because Fox is your weakest signal that needs a high gain antenna and an amp.

But, since it is doing well at its present location, and the C2V isn't doing very well for the other stations, I think the C2V should be moved to the best location on your house.

That location is at the rear of the peak of the higher roof on the west side of your house. The signals from the NE will clear the house that is east of you when the C2V is there.

This is what the signal lines look like at 45 degrees Bird's Eye view:



And this is what they look like at 90 degrees vertical view:


Quote:
When you speak to the possible new location for the C2V can you link me to the bracket you are referring to?
Eave brackets/mounts look like this:
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...mount+brackets
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...unt+tv+antenna

Channel Master makes one, but I can't tell what gauge it is:
http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master.../dp/B001RD703E

This one is 16 gauge:
http://www.3starinc.com/adjustable_e...t_bracket.html

This one by Winegard is only 18 gauge:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0012&ss=363299

Comments by hams about eave mounts:
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/in...c=60884.0;wap2

I don't have any personal experience with this type of mount, but it looks like the important factors are the gauge of the metal and the strength of your roof at the point where it is fastened.

The board at the gable end is often called the fascia board, but the proper name is bargeboard. The fascia board is at the end of the rafters.

You will need someone with a very tall ladder to install that mount. A carpenter/contractor probably would be a good choice because he could reinforce the roof at that location if necessary. Tom Silva, of This Old House, would be my choice, but he would not be available.

I wouldn't put anything more than a small antenna on a 5 ft mast there. If you wanted to put both antennas there you would need a 5 ft tripod mount with a 10 ft mast on the top of the roof, which would require roof penetration of the fasteners. Another alternative for two antennas would be a tall mast, of 10 ft TV mast sections, that was fastened at the roof end and several places below with wall brackets, resting on your deck below.
Quote:
Also is there any way you could provide me a photo in a pm like before marked with exactly where you are suggesting?
Done.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Location 4-45 deg.JPG (77.2 KB, 749 views)
File Type: jpg Location 4-90 deg.JPG (102.5 KB, 736 views)

Last edited by rabbit73; 20-Nov-2014 at 2:55 AM.
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Old 20-Nov-2014, 3:35 AM   #115
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I don't have any personal experience with this type of mount, but it looks like the important factors are the gauge of the metal and the strength of your roof at the point where it is fastened.

The board at the gable end is often called the fascia board, but the proper name is bargeboard. The fascia board is at the end of the rafters.

You will need someone with a very tall ladder to install that mount. A carpenter/contractor probably would be a good choice because he could reinforce the roof at that location if necessary. Tom Silva, of This Old House, would be my choice, but he would not be available.

I wouldn't put anything more than a small antenna on a 5 ft mast there. If you wanted to put both antennas there you would need a 5 ft tripod mount with a 10 ft mast on the top of the roof, which would require roof penetration of the fasteners. Another alternative for two antennas would be a tall mast, of 10 ft TV mast sections, that was fastened at the roof end and several places below with wall brackets, resting on your deck below.


O.K. So if I am understanding you right then I need an eavesmount and then either a 5 foot mast (if just moving the C2V) or a 10 foot mast and a 5 foot tripod mount (if moving both antennas). Is that correct?

I have some additional questions as well. How tall of a ladder are we talking? You said a carpenter so I am assuming a handyman would be a good choice. Correct?

My next question is regarding aim. How would the antennas be able to be aimed precisely (particularly critical for the 91XG) because its not like that part of the roof is able to be walked around on like where it is located now.
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Old 20-Nov-2014, 3:49 AM   #116
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My last question for today has to do with alternative antennas. Since I will need to bring someone out (handyman?) to do this for me, I probably need to have an alternative antenna on hand if the error messages/multipath continues with the C2V. I have been researching some options which I will list below for feedback.

Channel Master CM 2016: http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Di..._p/cm-2016.htm

Winegard HD7694P: http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD769...negard+hd7694p

Antenna Craft HBU22: http://antennacraft.net/pdfs/HBU22_.pdf

Channel Master CM3016: http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Di..._p/cm-3016.htm

I can't find specs for it but this RCA gets good reviews: http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Dur..._cd_ql_qh_dp_t

Primary consideration of course is performance, but size suitable for the mounting options and durability for weather extremes (here in MO we get quite a wide range of winter weather and other events). If I am overlooking a model, I'm willing to listen. I would like to get similar to better performance than what I am currently getting out of the C2V (again if I need to replace).

Last edited by mulliganman; 20-Nov-2014 at 3:53 AM.
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Old 20-Nov-2014, 7:13 PM   #117
rabbit73
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Quote:
The coax from the 91XG and C2V enter through the roof into the attic.
Which attic, the one above the garage or the one above the 2nd floor?
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Old 20-Nov-2014, 8:56 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Which attic, the one above the garage or the one above the 2nd floor?
The attic above the garage is where the coax enters and the only attic I have access to.
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Old 20-Nov-2014, 9:02 PM   #119
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Simply relocating the C2V from its current location is likely all you need to do. It "appears" that it's below the level of your neighbors home, but, only someone standing on the roof would be able to be certain. Your situation illustrates the pitfall of using an existing satellite mount without taking the TV antenna's different requirements into proper consideration.

If that existing dish mount has support "legs" for a larger 18x24 dish, it's sturdy enough to install an extension pipe into it an raises the C2V up. Depending on the specific mount, you might easily get 5-8' of additional elevation which might clear the neighbor's rooftop.

Barring that, simply moving the antenna to the rear edge of the garage roof, closer to your deck, may allow the C2V a relatively unobstructed field of view for a good distance towards Fordland. I'd even be inclined to try it on your deck if that gets you out from behind the neighboring house.

One thing I did notice when I zoomed out from your rooftop view is that your signal LOS passes right through what appears to be a big tree in the back yard of the home on the corner across the street. If your reception issues correlate with wind or rain, then that tree would likely explain the issues.

Of the antennas you named, I'd only consider the second one plus the HBU33 as candidates. If you're going to have to go bigger, no point in trying to be subtle about it.

Quote:
I can't find specs for it but this RCA gets good reviews:
That's because Voxx Intl doesn't seem interested in publishing any specs.
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Old 20-Nov-2014, 9:11 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Simply relocating the C2V from its current location is likely all you need to do. It "appears" that it's below the level of your neighbors home, but, only someone standing on the roof would be able to be certain. Your situation illustrates the pitfall of using an existing satellite mount without taking the TV antenna's different requirements into proper consideration.

If that existing dish mount has support "legs" for a larger 18x24 dish, it's sturdy enough to install an extension pipe into it an raises the C2V up. Depending on the specific mount, you might easily get 5-8' of additional elevation which might clear the neighbor's rooftop.

Barring that, simply moving the antenna to the rear edge of the garage roof, closer to your deck, may allow the C2V a relatively unobstructed field of view for a good distance towards Fordland. I'd even be inclined to try it on your deck if that gets you out from behind the neighboring house.
Let's say that dish doesn't have "legs" is there a mount that could be used in its current location that would give it enough height there to alleviate any issues? Just wanting to consider all the possibilities.

I am aware of the tree that you speak about. I haven't noticed any patterns with wind or rain but I will watch for it.
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