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Old 19-Apr-2013, 5:00 PM   #1
AGF79
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Antenna/Signal Experts...Please Assist.

Hello Experts,

I'm in the Toledo, Ohio area and looking for a suitable antenna or antenna combo to receive as many channels(VHF and UHF) as possible. I'm not interested in using a rotor so that's why I mention possibly using a antenna combo if needed. I would like to hit the channel cluster up in Detroit(55+ mi North) and the cluster that is only around 15 mi east of me, I will be able to place my antenna between 30-40 ft. from the ground on my roof. I will be splitting to 3 TV's with one of them being around 200' from the antenna. With the research I have done I'm still unsure on what to buy, here are my questions.
1.) Should I buy a Yagi like the 91xg and beam it up to Detroit and then get something like the Clearstream 2V to catch everything near by, or maybe two CS-2V and no Yagi? I was also looking at the AD-DB8 and the CM-4228HD since It looks like I need something that can receive with a 60-70 degree sweep, but still unsure if that's right.

2.) What would be the best pre-amp for me? I was looking at that RCA with good reviews.

3.) I have a roll of regular in-wall RG6 cable, is this ok to use outside or should I pick up something a little more durable?

I think that's it for now, any help would be greatly appreciated

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1dda384eca69bd

Thank you,
Drew
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Old 20-Apr-2013, 6:22 PM   #2
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The two groups of signals are separated by enough azimuth and distance to make it hard for me to say you'll find a single antenna fixed aim antenna that will receive both markets simultaneously and reliably.

To give it a try is a valid option though... even if you don't succeed, you end up with a very reliable antenna system for the local signals. So, I'd recommended you try an Antennas Direct DB4e aimed between the local and Detroit groups. Then to add the High-VHF signals to the system, use an Antennacraft Y10713 or Winegard YA1713... I'd start with it aimed at Detroit then adjust to improve the locals if needed.

Combine the two antennas with a UHF/VHF combiner (UVSJ). Then if you can find an Antennas Direct CPA-19 great, if no luck, another overload resistant preamp option is the Winegard HDP269. (A preamp may not be needed at all if you were only after the local signals.)

This is a case where there are several 'right' ways to go.... separate antennas aimed at each market, etc.

If you want to see WLMB, real CH-5 reliably, add an Antennacraft CS600 or Winegard YA-6260. Use a High/Low Signal Joiner to combine this into the down-lead.
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Last edited by GroundUrMast; 20-Apr-2013 at 6:27 PM. Reason: WLMB
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Old 21-Apr-2013, 5:57 PM   #3
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If I was to aim the DB4e in-between the local and Detroit channel I would be aiming directly into the center of downtown Toledo which leaves me with a whole lot of tall buildings to contend with. What would you think if I was to use the Antennas direct DB8 for that?, since each side of that antenna is movable an then still use a hi-band VHF antenna aimed at Detroit?

Thank you,
Drew
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Old 21-Apr-2013, 6:31 PM   #4
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Take a close look at the the documentation for each antenna...

http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_f...s/DB8E-TDS.pdf

http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_f...s/DB4E-TDS.pdf

When the elements of the DB8e are set 30 off broadside you get remarkably similar gain compared to the DB4e. I don't see how the $200 DB8e brings value to this specific application when compared to the $60 DB4e (Amazon).


If the buildings are a source of multipath, you may find yourself forced to use two dedicated antenna systems or a rotator. However, that brings me back to the point that the DB4e and H-VHF combination is a solid solution for use as one of the two antenna systems if you prove that you have to go that route.
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Last edited by GroundUrMast; 21-Apr-2013 at 6:36 PM. Reason: just another thought
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Old 21-Apr-2013, 8:23 PM   #5
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I was actually talking about the DB8 not the DB8e, the DB8 is about $100 cheaper. What are your thoughts on the DB8? So if I choose to use one antenna system, is there a certain distance the VHF antenna should be from the UHF antenna? and should the VHF antenna be above the UHF antenna when mounting? Also, the pre-amp should be connected after the combiner correct?

Thanks again for everything its much appreciated.

Thanks,
Drew
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Old 21-Apr-2013, 8:38 PM   #6
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I would be mounting on one pole, unless advised not to.
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Old 21-Apr-2013, 9:58 PM   #7
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The DB8 (rather than the new DB8e) does not have adjustable panels. It has a narrow forward beam compared to the DB4 and DB4e. As such, I would not expect it to have the forward beam width needed to give you a good shot at simultaneous reception from the Detroit and local markets.

The DB4e has the advantage of being engineered to concentrate gain in the new UHF band (real CH-14 through CH-51). As a result, it has just 1.3 dB less gain than the older DB8 design... While having a significantly wider forward beam.

When sharing a mast, try for 4' of separation between the UHF and H-VHF antenna.

Yes, in this case, the preamp would connect to the combined output of the UVSJ. (In an extreme deep fringe situation, there may be a slight advantage to using separate preamps on each antenna... Then combining the outputs of the preamplifiers downstream of the power insertion blocks. It's rare to see that net enough improvement to justify the cost and complexity.)
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Old 22-Apr-2013, 2:04 AM   #8
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Ok, I'm going to go with the DB4e and most likely the Winegard YA1713. I keep reading your name and it makes me think of a question, I was most likely going to "ground" the cable with a grounding rod just before it goes into the house, is that sufficient or do I need to be running a grounding wire straight from the mast to a grounding rod?

Thanks,
Drew
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Old 22-Apr-2013, 2:54 AM   #9
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Oops got another one...FM trap, do I need it and if so where exactly would it go in-line with the combiner and pre-amp?

Thanks again,
Drew
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Old 22-Apr-2013, 6:46 AM   #10
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Most installations don't need an FM trap, but feel free to run and post an FM Fool report... It will be easy to see if there are some high powered stations close to you.

If you install a trap, it needs to be on the input side of the amplifier.

I advocate grounding the mast and the coax as two equally important but separate steps. I don't encourage the use of isolated ground rods. If you add a ground rod, it should be bonded the existing power grounding system with #6 AWG or larger copper wire. This is to prevent large voltage differences from developing between the new ground system and existing ground system if fault current flows in either.

Here's my stock answer re. grounding: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901 (Post #20 is the summary, http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=20)

Last edited by GroundUrMast; 22-Apr-2013 at 6:56 AM. Reason: grounding
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Old 22-Apr-2013, 1:56 PM   #11
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Hopefully this worked, I added an attachment of my FM signals.

Thanks,
Drew
Attached Images
File Type: png Radar-FM.png (117.0 KB, 217 views)
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Old 22-Apr-2013, 6:00 PM   #12
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An FM trap may be needed. Ex. The second harmonic of WKKO, 99.9 lands in the middle of real CH-11, WTOL.

I've not gone though every permutation...
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Old 24-Apr-2013, 3:40 AM   #13
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Ok, so if needed I should probably go with the Winegard FT7600 and not one of those little Radio Shack joberdos?

What are your thoughts on me positioning my antennas at 23 degrees magnetic compass, I'm thinking this is the sweet spot...maybe I have no idea what i'm talking about.....lol.

Thanks,
Drew
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Old 24-Apr-2013, 4:01 AM   #14
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The RS 15-024 FM trap is actually a decent product. The price is hard to beat too. It's not adjustable, it just attenuates the entire FM broadcast band.

The Winegard FT7600 is a premium grade product with better weather resistance and it is adjustable. You'll want to have an FM receiver with signal strength meter... You need to be able to adjust the FT7600 while checking to see that the the unit is tuned to suppress the particular FM signal that causes you trouble.

23 is fine as a starting aim point... you'll want to check left and right of that point while checking results on a good TV (one with a signal quality meter makes fine tuning antenna aim easier).
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Old 24-Apr-2013, 4:28 AM   #15
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The RS 15-024 can be outside in-line before the preamp or inside my home in-line before the power supply?
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Old 24-Apr-2013, 6:29 AM   #16
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Regardless of which FM trap you select, it needs to be between the antenna and amplifier. In the case of a mast mounted preamplifier, that's the outdoor unit, not the power supply/insertion block. The goal is to stop strong interfering FM signals from ever getting into the amplifier where they would be distorted and mixed with other signals to produce yet more interference.

I like the idea of shielding the RS from the elements. If one is a bit handy, a bit of ingenuity can use any number of recyclables to fabricate a rain guard. Then there's the trusty Coax-Seal and Scotch 2228 that does a great job of water proofing connections.

http://www.amazon.com/protects-types.../dp/B0002ZPINC

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Scotch-1-...2#.UXd7T0of-hQ
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Old 24-Apr-2013, 12:45 PM   #17
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Hey GroundUrMast, you have been more then helpful and I appreciate every bit of it...If only you were in my area I'd buy you a drink, thanks again.

Drew
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