TV Fool  

Go Back   TV Fool > Over The Air Services > Help With Reception

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 23-Aug-2019, 9:40 PM   #1
richardrosa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 16
Technical question about WFSB repack

Greetings All,

I have a technical question for someone who may have some inside information..

Although I live in the Mid-Hudson Valley of NY, I pick up (reliability) 4 stations out of CT:
WVIT, WTIC, WEDH (Hartford) & WTNH (New Haven).

Prior to repacking, I also could receive WFSB ONLY between the hours of 4am and 8am (approximately).
After 8am, the signal would almost completely disappear.

The ONLY other TV frequency that I can receive at my location is Channel 23 out of Highland (Poughkeepsie), NY.
I get NO discernible signals from NYC or Albany.

About 3 weeks ago, all of the CT stations went through the repack exercise.
What surprised me is that WFSB is now watchable most of the day.
Looking at the signal with my spectrum display shows the signal still bobbing up and down like a cork on the ocean.
However, most of the time the level is high enough to maintain watch-ability.
As before, the levels are BEST in the early morning hours, but the station can now be received for much of the day.

Prior to repacking, WFSB was on Channel 33. After repack it is on Channel 36.
I find it hard to believe that an 18mhz INCREASE in frequency should be responsible for the signal level changes.


So the questions I have (for someone who might know) did WFSB:
1) Change output power?
2) Change antenna orientation?
3) Change transmitter location?

Thanx to anyone who can satisfy my curiosity.

Richard Rosa
richardrosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-Aug-2019, 10:45 PM   #2
ADTech
Antennas Direct Tech Supp
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,921
WFSB was co-channel with WCBS on UHF 33 causing much of southern CT and parts of the Hudson valley .to suffer the loss of either or both stations.

I'd suspect you're experiencing a temporary reprieve due to WCBS having to run off an auxiliary antenna at lower power while the permanent system at 1WTC is completed. Once they are able to go to full power, their co-channel interference may well be enough to knock out WFSB again. Post re-pack, they're now both on UHF 36. Doh!

If Tower Guy drops by, he can probably provide more background since he worked "next door".
__________________
Antennas Direct Tech Support

For support and recommendations regarding our products, please contact us directly at https://www.antennasdirect.com/customer-service.html

Sorry, I'm not a mod and cannot assist with your site registration.
ADTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-Aug-2019, 10:13 AM   #3
richardrosa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
WFSB was co-channel with WCBS on UHF 33 causing much of southern CT and parts of the Hudson valley .to suffer the loss of either or both stations.

I'd suspect you're experiencing a temporary reprieve due to WCBS having to run off an auxiliary antenna at lower power while the permanent system at 1WTC is completed. Once they are able to go to full power, their co-channel interference may well be enough to knock out WFSB again. Post re-pack, they're now both on UHF 36. Doh!

If Tower Guy drops by, he can probably provide more background since he worked "next door".

OK. If WCBS is currently running at reduced power that MIGHT explain it. However this makes for something weird happening..

NYC transmitters are due South from my house. If I point my UHF antenna in the southern direction, I see only two signals in the entire UHF spectrum: WVIT (the signal is strong enough to pick up off the side of the antenna) and WMHT Pok (off of the back-end). I get NO signals from the South.
This makes sense as there are several LARGE mountains and 7 of my neighbor's houses between me and the transmitters (I'm in a big dip in the road).
To get ANYTHING from NYC I need to install a 100ft tower in my backyard (to which the Boss has said "NO" to )

If what I was experiencing before repack was co-channel, then somewhere in the East there is something reflecting WCBS at the right strength and phase to null out WFSB. And ONLY doing this during mostly daylight hours!

If when WCBS gets back to full power, WFSB disappears again, then I guess that (reflected) co-channel is the answer.
Is there any web page that I can monitor WCBS's status?

The other mystery that will probably NEVER be solved is WHY the FCC placed both these stations on the same channel (TWICE!)..

Thanx for the info.

Richard Rosa
richardrosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-Aug-2019, 1:17 PM   #4
JoeAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 360
Another possibility for your improved reception of WFSB may be
that engineers upgraded the antenna, changed beam tilt, increased
power, etc, etc, etc. Hopefully, the improved reception will continue
for you over the long term.
JoeAZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-Aug-2019, 2:17 PM   #5
rabbit73
Retired A/V Tech
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,504
Hello, Richard

Your previous TVFool report is no longer on the server:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d6dbf19cecb97a

and a current TVFool report isn't accurate:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...903868a4614e1a



but a report using the rabbitears.info search map is more up to date:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=5975



You are in a poor location for OTA reception, Richard. If you click on Transmitter Distance in your rabbitears.info report, you will see how the terrain blocks the signals. Reception will rarely be 100% reliable for most channels.





Small differences in elevation are because different databases were used.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg richardrosaTVFreport8-24-2019.JPG (203.4 KB, 151 views)
File Type: jpg richardrosaTVFreportRE8-24-2019_1.jpg (302.0 KB, 148 views)
File Type: jpg richardrosaTVFp3WFSB36.JPG (77.7 KB, 132 views)
File Type: jpg richardrosaTVFp2WFSB36.JPG (117.6 KB, 129 views)
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Aug-2019 at 3:13 PM.
rabbit73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-Aug-2019, 3:09 PM   #6
richardrosa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Hello, Richard

Your previous TVFool report is no longer on the server:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d6dbf19cecb97a

and a current TVFool report isn't accurate:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...903868a4614e1a



but a report using the rabbitears.info search map is more up to date:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=5975



You are in a poor location for OTA reception, Richard. If you click on Transmitter Distance in your rabbitears.info report, you will see how the terrain blocks the signals. Reception will rarely be 100% reliable for most channels.

Yup. If I go by these reports, I should get ZIP. Even the coverage map of WMHT's Illinois Mt transmitter (10 miles away) excludes my street!!

However, with decent antennas & some careful positioning, I manage to RELIABLY pull in 4 stations from CT (3 UHF + 1 VHF). This has kept the 'Boss' happy, and the local Cable company out of my wallet.

WFSB's signal has been mysterious since day one. Between the minute to minute fluctuations and the level reduction in daylight, It always seems to behave like a short-wave signal, rather than a UHF frequency. All the other stations provide a pretty stable level.


Rich
richardrosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-Aug-2019, 4:13 PM   #7
ADTech
Antennas Direct Tech Supp
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,921
Without a precise location, the potential co-channel idea was the best I could come up with on an empty stomach.


Hey, it it works and continues to do so and the Boss is happy, can't get any better than that!
__________________
Antennas Direct Tech Support

For support and recommendations regarding our products, please contact us directly at https://www.antennasdirect.com/customer-service.html

Sorry, I'm not a mod and cannot assist with your site registration.
ADTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-Aug-2019, 2:15 AM   #8
rabbit73
Retired A/V Tech
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardrosa View Post
Prior to repacking, WFSB was on Channel 33. After repack it is on Channel 36.
I find it hard to believe that an 18mhz INCREASE in frequency should be responsible for the signal level changes.

So the questions I have (for someone who might know) did WFSB:
1) Change output power?
2) Change antenna orientation?
3) Change transmitter location?

Thanx to anyone who can satisfy my curiosity.

Richard Rosa
WFSB-DT (Digital)
Channel: 33 (3.1)
Network: CBS
Maximum ERP: 1000.000 kW Horizontal
Coordinates:
41.775100, -72.805098
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 947' 288.8m
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 526' 160.3m
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 1233' 375.8m

WFSB
Channel: 36
Service Designation: DTV Full Service Digital TV Station
41.775, -72.805083
Polarization: Elliptical (E) Horizontal, Vertical
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 1000, 250 kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 948' 289m
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 526' 160.3m
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 1233' 375.8m
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...ms&facid=53115
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 25-Aug-2019 at 11:43 AM.
rabbit73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-Aug-2019, 12:52 PM   #9
rabbit73
Retired A/V Tech
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardrosa View Post
WFSB's signal has been mysterious since day one. Between the minute to minute fluctuations and the level reduction in daylight, It always seems to behave like a short-wave signal, rather than a UHF frequency. All the other stations provide a pretty stable level.

Rich
It's probably because of temperature inversion.




Definition of subrefraction

: a state of refraction (as of the atmosphere) that is less than normal and is usually associated with a sharp vertical gradient of some physical factor (such as temperature)

Attached Images
File Type: jpg richardrosaTVFp2WFSB36bowl.jpg (129.0 KB, 89 views)
File Type: jpg Refraction-of-radio-waves 2_1.jpg (41.8 KB, 83 views)
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 25-Aug-2019 at 2:39 PM.
rabbit73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Go Back   TV Fool > Over The Air Services > Help With Reception


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT. The time now is 5:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © TV Fool, LLC