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Old 15-Nov-2014, 3:17 AM   #81
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post

Equipment like a tuner, a TV or an AC7 is expected to be grounded when in use to protect it from RF interference.
Your power strip does not have that provision.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But this one does:
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-TLP...SR8VY9F6CDQD8J
You can see the two coax connectors at the center of the strip. Using those connectors for your antenna coax might expose it to interference from the other equipment connected to the strip and there might be internal surge protection between the center conductor of the coax and the shield that can degrade the signal.

]
I'm sure I will have more questions but are you saying I need that power strip you linked instead of the one I am using?
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Old 15-Nov-2014, 6:02 AM   #82
rabbit73
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Quote:
Also saw on tivocommunity.com that RS is Reed Solomon. Digital transmission systems incorporate a scheme called Forward Error Correction which uses Reed Solomon error correction codes
That is correct. However, the FEC has a limit to how many errors it is able to correct. Any further errors are uncorrected.
Quote:
RS Corrected indicates that the demodulator detected a block with an error in it and the RS code was able to correct the error. RS Uncorrected means the error was beyond the capability of the RS code to correct. An uncorrected block most likely will result in a pixelation or a dropout event.
Good explanation.

What is odd though, I haven't seen any corrected errors in your test results. If there were any errors to be corrected, they should first show in corrected errors, which is why I asked you before if you had corrected and uncorrected reversed.

So, I'm wondering is it that the Roamio tuner is not able to correct any errors, and all errors become uncorrected. Or is it that it is able to correct some errors, but it is not showing how many?
Quote:
I'm sure I will have more questions but are you saying I need that power strip you linked instead of the one I am using?
The one that you have is just fine, no problem.

Last edited by rabbit73; 15-Nov-2014 at 6:09 AM.
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Old 15-Nov-2014, 6:15 PM   #83
mulliganman
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I have some questions regarding the grounding. You linked to a grounding block but I found some I wandered would also work that I can get cheaper and quicker:

http://www.amazon.com/cable-Coaxial-...rounding+block

http://www.amazon.com/PcConnectTM-F-...rounding+block

http://www.amazon.com/CNE41312-F-Pin...rounding+block

As far as actually, checking it and ensuring everything is properly grounded is this something a handyman could do? If so, is there something concise that I could give to him and say this is what I need done.

Another question is whether I would need anything else other than one grounding block?
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Old 15-Nov-2014, 8:04 PM   #84
rabbit73
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Any of those three would be suitable. Note that the first one is an add-on item. Watch the shipping costs. I ordered an item listed on Amazon, but not sold directly by them. The seller said free shipping in the listing, but it wasn't free and he refused to refund shipping costs. I told Amazon I considered that a breach of contract so Amazon made up the difference by giving me a credit on my next item if sold by Amazon, which they did.

A talented handyman could do it if you show him the diagrams I posted, otherwise you need an electrician. The biggest problem is the connection to the house electrical system ground. He must not disconnect the house ground to connect your grounding block and mast ground wires, even for a moment. He should use a split bolt which makes it possible to connect your ground wires to the house electrical system ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I reviewed the NEC antenna grounding rules. It requires two grounding connections for an outdoor antenna. The mast must be connected to the house electrical system ground with a 10 gauge copper, 8 gauge aluminum, or 17 gauge copper coated steel conductor. The coax shield must be grounded using a grounding block that is also connected to the house electrical system ground. The NEC calls the grounding block an ADU (antenna discharge unit). The purpose of the grounding is not to withstand a lightning strike, but to prevent a buildup of a static charge on the antenna system which, in theory, reduces the chance of a strike, and for electrical safety. You can see a diagram of this on page 2 in the AntennasDirect link that GroundUrMast gave you in his General Technical & Safety Information thread:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...structions.pdf

If you use a separate ground rod for an antenna mast ground, then that ground rod must be connected (bonded) to the house electrical system ground with a 6 gauge copper wire. This is to prevent a voltage differential between the two grounds.
You can see a diagram of the separate ground rod version in the link that GroundUrMast gave you:
Antenna basics
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html
scroll down to The NEC requirement

If you plan on doing the grounding work youself, be sure not to disconnect the grounding connection for the house ground even for a second when adding your grounding wires. Use split bolts that allow you to add your wires to the house ground. There is a device mentioned by GroundURMast called an Intersystem Bonding Termination that allows you to connect your grounds without disturbing the house ground because it has a lay-in connection for the house ground conductor. I saw it being used on a recent This Old House show:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT1476.pdf

I don't know about the regulations in your area for an antenna installation. Some towns require an electrical inspector to give an OK for an installation; others don't seem to care. I would hesitate about asking your inspector about your installation until you find out what kind of person he is. Ask a local electrician about the inspector when he helps you with your ground connections to your electrical system.
Quote:
Another question is whether I would need anything else other than one grounding block?
Enough 10 gauge copper wire to connect the grounding block and mast to the house ground, and maybe one of these, which is called an IBTB, Intersystem Bonding Termination Block:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT1476.pdf

The ways of house electrical system grounding are many and varied:
http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp

Last edited by rabbit73; 16-Nov-2014 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 15-Nov-2014, 8:40 PM   #85
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ANTENNA MOUNTING 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
I've asked this a couple of times but haven't gotten any responses so I'll ask again. If I moved the 91XG to the peak of the 2nd story of my home, what equipment would I need for mounting it there. I'm hoping you may be able to answer after looking at the coordinates I gave you.
Now that you been kind enough and trusting enough to give me your exact coordinates, I'm better able to consider other antenna mounting options. But I first need to have a better understanding of your present antenna mounting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
I chose the Antennas Direct 91XG and we mounted on a satellite dish mount pointed toward 350 degrees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
Let me clarify. I have a Clearstream 2V aimed at approximately 50 degrees. I have an Antennas Direct 91XG aimed at 349 degrees (this antenna is picking up Fox KRBK).
Is it safe for me to assume that you have your 91XG and C2V on the satellite mount that is located where the teardrop indicator is located on the satellite view of your house? It looks like it is on the East side of your house, about half way back from the front.

I don't have a photo of your antennas, so I'm trying to picture in my mind if you have both antennas on the same mast, and which is on top. I looked at some other map images to try to see how high your antennas might be, but I couldn't tell. My concern is whether the signals coming from the NE for the C2V are able to clear the roof of the house that is East of your house, because when I turn on the green signal lines for the interactive map, they cross the peak of the roof of that house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
What does the line of sight from the C2V look like on the signal path towards Fordland? Clear, a few trees, a lot of trees, houses, etc? I'm concerned that if reception isn't stable now and if there are trees, your reception ill fall off a cliff as soon as the trees leaf out.
Quote:
I would say that the line of sight for the C2V is for the most part fairly clear.
If the house to the East of you is in the path of the signals for the C2V, that might affect those signals. But, I think it is more likely that it is because those signals are too strong for either of your DVRs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
Reran the individual tests without the Holland 2FS used as a reverse splitter. Each antenna was separately connected to an "in" port on the CM3414 distribution amp.
1) 91XG picked up all channels. Initial testing showed no pixelation or issues.
2)C2V even picked up Fox KRBK (although at pitiful strength). Pixelation was visible on KSPR (33.1 ABC) on downstairs TV connected to Channel Master DVR+
After the individual tests I reconnected the 91XG to the CM3414 distribution amp solely to see how it would do over an extended period of time. This time I noticed noticed pixelation issues on KSPR (33.1 ABC), PBS (21.2), and KYTV (3.1 NBC) on downstairs television connected to Channel Master DVR+.
I would say that the line of sight for the C2V is for the most part fairly clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mulliganman View Post
Been trying to trouble shoot. I previously mentioned one of the 3 TV's the signal (from the 91XG bypassing the splitter and being connected directly into the CM3410) is being split to was connected to this product: http://www.channelmaster.com/Products_s/329.htm#DVR+
Well when the coaxial cable is plugged into the back of the DVR+ that is where I am experiencing high amounts of pixelation/cutouts/etc. on some channels.
I thought I would try disconnecting from that device and plugging the coaxial directly into the TV instead. When I did that I didn't see any of the issues. So, I don't understand why that could be the case and would really like to try to resolve this.
When you connected the antenna directly to the TV, it didn't seem to have any trouble with the signals, but both DVRs did. That tells me that the TV tuner can tolerate less-than-perfect signals which the DVR tuners are not able to do because they are more particular and fussy about the signals than the TV.

Last edited by rabbit73; 16-Nov-2014 at 7:55 PM.
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Old 15-Nov-2014, 8:56 PM   #86
rabbit73
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ANTENNA MOUNTING 2

When I was looking at the satellite map of your house on bing.com, I was able to rotate the bird's eye view to see the rear of your house. It is an old image (2011), so there might have been some changes. These are the options I see:

1. A 5 ft tripod mount at the peak of the roof at the rear of the house.
2. A thru-the-roof mast to your attic at the same location, similar to a plumbing vent pipe.

Both of these options would require roof penetration, which would need to be done with care to prevent roof leaks.

3. A mast at the back of your house that would run from the first floor deck up to above the peak of the roof. Its base would be on the deck. It would be fastened with an eave mount at the top, and several wall brackets below. It would allow you to adjust the aim of the 91XG from below using the "Armstrong method" before tightening the U bolts.

You could move just the 91XG first and leave the C2V in its present location for now. This would allow you to try other antennas there more easily.

The 91XG has a tilt feature which would allow you to tilt the front of the antenna up for higher angle incoming signals like your 2Edge Fox signal on CH 49. Your location is at the right end of the profile:



Channel 49 is 683 MHz center frequency. Note the increased gain and more narrow angle at that frequency, which means the aim is more critical. Also note the notch at each side of the peak, which means a loss of gain at that angle.



If you stay within the FCC height limits for your antenna, any neighbor or HOA that complained would have to prove that you weren't in compliance.
Quote:
(3) An antenna that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals.

In addition, antennas covered by the rule may be mounted on "masts" to reach the height needed to receive or transmit an acceptable quality signal (e.g. maintain line-of-sight contact with the transmitter or view the satellite). Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements for safety purposes. Further, masts that extend beyond an exclusive use area may not be covered by this rule.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...na+regulations
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-r...n-devices-rule
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KRBK Profile.JPG (50.9 KB, 1752 views)
File Type: jpg 91XG Gain VS Elevation Angle.JPG (124.4 KB, 1814 views)

Last edited by rabbit73; 16-Nov-2014 at 1:00 AM.
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Old 16-Nov-2014, 1:11 AM   #87
mulliganman
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Rabbit,

I was looking at this link: http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT1476.pdf

Particularly, the second page and I believe I have that on the side of my house. When it is daylight tomorrow, i can check but just looking at the pictures on the second page I believe it to at least look pretty similar to what I have.

Is it safe for me to assume that you have your 91XG and C2V on the satellite mount that is located where the teardrop indicator is located on the satellite view of your house? It looks like it is on the East side of your house, about half way back from the front.

I don't have a photo of your antennas, so I'm trying to picture in my mind if you have both antennas on the same mast, and which is on top. I looked at some other map images to try to see how high your antennas might be, but I couldn't tell. My concern is whether the signals coming from the NE for the C2V are able to clear the roof of the house that is East of your house, because when I turn on the green signal lines for the interactive map, they cross the peak of the roof of that house.


Both antennas are using existing satellite mounts that were there already. The coordinates I gave you were pretty close to the area where both antennas are mounting. There is no mast in use that I am aware; just the satellite mounts.

Last edited by mulliganman; 16-Nov-2014 at 1:14 AM.
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Old 16-Nov-2014, 9:20 PM   #88
mulliganman
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Is it safe for me to assume that you have your 91XG and C2V on the satellite mount that is located where the teardrop indicator is located on the satellite view of your house? It looks like it is on the East side of your house, about half way back from the front.

I don't have a photo of your antennas, so I'm trying to picture in my mind if you have both antennas on the same mast, and which is on top. I looked at some other map images to try to see how high your antennas might be, but I couldn't tell. My concern is whether the signals coming from the NE for the C2V are able to clear the roof of the house that is East of your house, because when I turn on the green signal lines for the interactive map, they cross the peak of the roof of that house.


I've tried to upload some photos I took with my IPAD of the electrical system outside the house and the placement of the antennas. The pictures aren't the best but hopefully will do. The 91XG should be easy to make out and the C2V is just to the right of it in the photo.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Pic 1.jpg (45.2 KB, 849 views)
File Type: jpg Pic 2.jpg (32.6 KB, 829 views)
File Type: jpg Pic 3.jpg (32.7 KB, 812 views)
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Old 16-Nov-2014, 9:41 PM   #89
rabbit73
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Thanks for the photos; they help.

Pic 1: Left to Right, that looks like telephone, power, and internet. Is that correct? I don't see an IBTB.

Pic 2 & 3: I see the 91XG, but not the C2V. I'm confused about the location. I thought the antennas were on the east side of your house. It looks like you were on the east side when you took the photo and the antennas are on the west side. Maybe I have the wrong house.
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Old 16-Nov-2014, 9:57 PM   #90
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thanks for the photos; they help.

Pic 1: Left to Right, that looks like telephone, power, and internet. Is that correct? I don't see an IBTB.

Pic 2 & 3: I see the 91XG, but not the C2V. I'm confused about the location. I thought the antennas were on the east side of your house. It looks like you were on the east side when you took the photo and the antennas are on the west side. Maybe I have the wrong house.
Regarding Pic 2 and 3, I was standing to the east of the house when I took the photos. I think taking photos with the IPAD is the only option because of the small file size requirement of this website (I believe my camera makes the files too large), so I apologize that they are not the best. If you are having trouble making it out, the C2V is close (just to the right of the 91XG when looking at the photo; probably a couple feet or so in real world distance).

Regarding pic 1 from left to right, it is internet, power, phone. You may need to rotate the photo. Looks like you are right regarding the IBTB.

Last edited by mulliganman; 16-Nov-2014 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 16-Nov-2014, 10:07 PM   #91
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When you connected the antenna directly to the TV, it didn't seem to have any trouble with the signals, but both DVRs did. That tells me that the TV tuner can tolerate less-than-perfect signals which the DVR tuners are not able to do because they are more particular and fussy about the signals than the TV.

In earlier testing, yes I believe I found that to be the case. Ranking them I would put TV, Tivo Roamio, DVR+. The Roamio was a clear step above the DVR+ in the tuner category (and feature category for that matter).

Tivo support isn't going to be of any help either. When asking about the RS Corrected and RS Uncorrected with them today, they told me you want both to be 0 and anything that shows up in RS Uncorrected is beyond the ability of the Tivo Roamio to fix. When I pressed for what could cause the unfixable errors I was told it "could be any number of things including bad coax." I appreciated them narrowing things down so much!

Last edited by mulliganman; 16-Nov-2014 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 16-Nov-2014, 10:34 PM   #92
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Quote:
In earlier testing, yes I believe I found that to be the case. Ranking them I would put TV, Tivo Roamio, DVR+. The Roamio was a clear step above the DVR+ in the tuner category (and feature category for that matter).
Thank you for confirming my evaluation.
Quote:
Tivo support isn't going to be of any help either.
I agree. Can you get any help from other Roamio users on tivocommunity.com?
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/index.php?
Quote:
(I believe my camera makes the files too large),
Many image editors will reduce file size. I use the ZoomBrowser software that came with my Canon camera. This site allows jpg attachments up to 500 KB, 1024 x 1024. I try to stay under 200K unless fine detail is needed, 800 wide.
Quote:
I appreciated them narrowing things down so much!
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm there?

Looking forward to your attenuator tests, with hopes of making your signals more acceptable to the Roamio.

Last edited by rabbit73; 16-Nov-2014 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 16-Nov-2014, 11:40 PM   #93
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Is it correct to say that your antennas are on the west side of your roof? If so, does the C2V clear the peak of the roof when aimed NE?

From you photos, it looks like the 91XG is already higher than the peak of your roof, and it has a clear shot at Fox. If that is true, then I see no point in moving it.

Last edited by rabbit73; 16-Nov-2014 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 17-Nov-2014, 4:47 AM   #94
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When you gave me the coordinates for your house, I assumed the teardrop indicator was not only was showing me the right house, but also the location of your antennas. It seems that my assumption was not correct.

I have sent a set of new coordinates to you by PM that are for the tvfool interactive maps feature, satellite view 45 degrees oblique. Please let me know if I have it right this time, or correct me.
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Old 17-Nov-2014, 1:36 PM   #95
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
When you gave me the coordinates for your house, I assumed the teardrop indicator was not only was showing me the right house, but also the location of your antennas. It seems that my assumption was not correct.

I have sent a set of new coordinates to you by PM that are for the tvfool interactive maps feature, satellite view 45 degrees oblique. Please let me know if I have it right this time, or correct me.
O.K. Another quick question, is it safe to assume the antennas are not grounded after looking at the photos I posted?

Also, I am going to begin to look at bringing out an electrician to ground it (assuming it isn't currently grounded). Is the only thing I need materials wise a single grounding block?

I know I asked before, but I'm just trying to double check and think about what I might need to have on hand that an electrician might not have.

Last edited by mulliganman; 17-Nov-2014 at 2:55 PM.
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Old 17-Nov-2014, 5:50 PM   #96
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I am not able to answer your quick questions. You have not given me enough information to give you good answers.

I don't live near you, so I can't drive over to your house. I can only go by what you tell and show us.

The first thing you need to do is answer my latest PM with the title Location 2. If you didn't receive that PM, I will send it again.

Then you need to answer a few more questions that I have.

Then I will answer.

If you are going to intentionally WITHHOLD the information that I need to give you GOOD answers, then my answers will be CRAPPY.

GIGO

I really want to help you, but you are making it difficult for me to do it.

With respect and good intentions,
rabbit

Last edited by rabbit73; 17-Nov-2014 at 6:01 PM.
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Old 17-Nov-2014, 6:06 PM   #97
mulliganman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I am not able to answer your quick questions. You have not given me enough information to give you good answers.

I don't live near you, so I can't drive over to your house. I can only go by what you tell and show us.

The first thing you need to do is answer my latest PM with the title Location 2. If you didn't receive that PM, I will send it again.

Then you need to answer a few more questions that I have.

Then I will answer.

If you are going to intentionally WITHHOLD the information that I need to give you GOOD answers, then my answers will be CRAPPY.

GIGO

I really want to help you, but you are making it difficult for me to do it.

With respect and good intentions,
rabbit
I am not withholding anything. I saw your PM, but can't reply to it until I get home from work because the link you provided is blocked by my employer.

Last edited by mulliganman; 17-Nov-2014 at 9:46 PM.
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Old 17-Nov-2014, 6:13 PM   #98
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OK, I will wait until later. That will give me time to help my wife.

I have been neglecting her to help you.

Last edited by rabbit73; 17-Nov-2014 at 8:10 PM.
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Old 18-Nov-2014, 1:01 AM   #99
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Here are some new pics I took this evening. The side photos were taken on the right side of the home. The other pics were taken from the back of the home.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PB170789e.jpg (193.3 KB, 937 views)
File Type: jpg PB170790e.jpg (213.4 KB, 892 views)
File Type: jpg PB170791e.jpg (235.1 KB, 745 views)
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Old 18-Nov-2014, 1:06 AM   #100
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Got the attenuators today. Here are the 20 dB results (results taken at 6:50 p.m. on 11-17):

Channel 3-1 50% signal strength, 20dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 120

Channel 3-2 52% signal strength, 21dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, Rs Uncorrected 168

Channel 3-3 50% signal strength, 20dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 147

Channel 10-1 67% signal strength, 27dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0

Channel 21-1 50% signal strength, 20 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0

Channel 21-2 same as 21-1

Channel 21-3 same as 21-1 and 21-2

Channel 27-1 72% signal strength, 29 dB SNR, Rs Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0

Channel 33-1 55% signal strength, 22 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 198

Channel 33-2 55% signal strength, 22 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 177

Channel 33-3 55% signal strength, 22 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 78

Channel 49-1 62% signal strength, 25 dB SNR, RS Corrected 0, RS Uncorrected 0

Channel 49-2 same as 49-1
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