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Old 13-Oct-2010, 1:19 AM   #1
jjevans
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OTA beginner needs help with preamp selection

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a3622ec37d8e02


Just getting into it but bought a lot of equipment and just got it hooked up. I'm located about 40 miles NE of Grand Rapids, MI. Equipment is as follows:

Denny's Stacker VHF/UHF antenna
Phillips digital Rotor with multiple memory settings
RG6 cable with only compression fittings
Two dual tuner Channel Master CM-7000PAL DVRs

Referring to my TVFool report, I am only receiving about half of the pink channels, and so am fairly convinced a preamp is in order. There is a radio station about 200 yards SW of us broadcasting on FM107.3. I'm most interested in picking up new stations to the east near Lansing and Saginaw.

A few stations come in very strong: 17 & 41 are the strongest. I'm worried I might overboost the good stations if the wrong preamp is used. Can anyone suggest a good preamp for this situation? Thanks.
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Old 13-Oct-2010, 5:50 AM   #2
John Candle
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Tv Reception

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=695
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Old 13-Oct-2010, 4:08 PM   #3
mtownsend
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None of your TV channels are strong enough to worry about over-amplification.

A close-by FM transmitter is something to worry about. The stacker antenna is not designed to pick up FM frequencies, but if the transmitter is close enough, then there might still be enough signal getting through the antenna to cause problems with an amp.

Try using the signal locater at FM Fool to see how close the FM transmitters are to your house.

If you do have an FM transmitter very close to you, then I'd suggest a Winegard HDP-269 pre-amp. It has more tolerance for strong signals than other amps.
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Old 13-Oct-2010, 4:41 PM   #4
Tower Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjevans View Post
Can anyone suggest a good preamp for this situation? Thanks.
Winegard AP-8700. It has a wideband FM filter plus a tunable FM trap. Before you install the preamp at the antenna, slide the FM trap switch to IN, and then tune the trap with a miniature screwdriver to reduce the strength of 107.3 into an FM tuner.

The HDP-269 does not have a tunable trap.

The stacker has long elements which appear to be designed for low-band TV reception, which implies good FM reception, but the performance data is sparse.
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Old 13-Oct-2010, 10:57 PM   #5
jjevans
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http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29


Above is the FM Fool report. Looks like the actual transmitter has moved from their original headquarters. A couple stations at 50KW around 10 miles away in the higher frequencies and a couple at under 5KW around 6 miles away in the low 90's. Maybe I don't need the trap? Also, one response said overboosting wouldn't be a problem. Does that mean I could preamp both UHF and VHF in the 20db - 30db range? Thanks for the quick advice so far. It is really appreciated.
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Old 14-Oct-2010, 12:52 AM   #6
mtownsend
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That is correct. Your strongest TV signals are around -61 dBm, which is not that strong. Signals at this level are not strong enough to be pushing the limits of typical pre-amps.

If you had a strong FM transmitter nearby (200 yards is very very close), then there would be a problem because the FM signal might be too much for the amp to handle. If the nearest FM transmitter is several miles away, then this might not be so much of an issue. If the strongest FM signals are less than -30 dBm or so, then I don't think you need to worry.



Quote:
Does that mean I could preamp both UHF and VHF in the 20db - 30db range?
The main purpose of amps is to overcome any signal loss that would normally occur AFTER (or "downstream") from the amp. This includes things like cable loss, splitters, and inefficiencies in the receivers. Ideally, you want enough amplification to overcome these downstream losses. There's no real benefit to having more amplification than necessary.

For most people, the main things to consider are:

1) Cable loss. RG6 coax will typically lose about 6-8 dB for every 100 feet of cable in upper UHF frequencies. There is less loss at lower frequencies, so we typically focus on the worst case losses that happen in upper UHF.

2) Splitters (a.k.a. power dividers). When a signal is split, the amount of signal energy going down each branch is a little bit less than the original signal. The amount of signal reduction depends on the number of ways the signal is split. A 2-way split equates to roughly a 4 dB loss. A 4-way split equates to roughly a 8 dB loss. An 8-way split is roughly an 11 dB loss.

3) Receiver noise figure. The tuner circuitry in your TV or set-top box will have some inefficiencies that equate to a slight loss of SNR while processing the incoming signal. This reduction of SNR is referred to as the Noise Figure for the receiver. The tuners in most consumer products today (TVs, DVRs, converter boxes, etc.) have Noise Figures in the range of 6-9 dB.



So, if your setup has about 5 dB of cable loss (~60 feet RG6), 4 dB of splitter loss (2-way split), and a 6 dB receiver noise figure, then you need about 15 dB of amplification. A 20 dB amp would be more than enough to handle the situation. More amplification doesn't help, so don't automatically think that higher gain is better.



Also note that amps themselves introduce a bit of noise in the process of amplifying a signal. This equates to a loss of SNR right at the amp, and thus amps also have a Noise Figure specification. A "good" amp should have a Noise Figure rating of 3.0 dB or less. Many of the amps from companies like Winegard, Channel Master, and Antennacraft have good Noise Figure specs.

Beware of amps that have very high Noise Figures or ones that do not publish a Noise Figure spec at all. Some "bad" amps have been measured to have Noise Figures in excess of 10 dB, which almost negates the benefit of having an amp in the first place.
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