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Old 31-Mar-2019, 10:47 PM   #1
kb4
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Close channel Reception problem

My problem is I cannot reliably receive channel 27 WYJJ which has 7 sub channels I would like to receive. I am currently using the winnegard 8200 and amplified by a LNA-200 amp and 100 feet of coax to power inserter by TV directed toward the memphis market and receives them all reliably including real channel 5 VHF low and real channel 13 Vhf high band. Those 2 channels VHF low and high band is why I originally chose that antenna. Now that NBC and fox are fairly local I could do without the VHF channels since they are duplicated on the local channels. But some of the duplicates like H&I on WMC are on 27 WYJJ-LD which I cannot receive reliably. I realize the 8200 is not directed to WYJJ but it is also not behind the reflectors. Antenna is mounted on tripod on top of roof peak. There are many pine trees evergreen toward the memphis stains but this hasn't been a problem which could be due to most lower branches have fallen off since they are mature trees and reception is essentially the same year round since they are evergreen trees.

Toward WYJJ there are tall oak trees higher than antenna but they have not had leaves up to now. I realized there may be both multipath and oversimplification causing problems. When I do get reception the signal level is about 50 %. I have tried a separate uhf only outdoor antenna unamplified and amplified and directed toward WYJJ as well as other directions again without reliable reception.

I have also tried an indoor one by one unamplified antenna in various positions without reliable reception.

i would like to keep the 8200 as is and just have separate antenna and coax setup for WYJJ if needed but am unsure what antenna to try .

If there is another solution and use just the 8200 such as filter that is fine also.

Here is my TV fool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038b0923a2969

I would think an unamplified outdoor antenna either omnidirectional or low gain beam should suffice if its receivable at all in my location. I would think whatever would avoid multi path the best and avoid overamplication A low mounted antenna like 10 to 15 feet would avoid the oak tree leafs but of course not the trunks. Perhaps there is cellular interference I need to avoid. Even though its a low power station its only 3.7 miles away and I have personally seen it received well at over 30 miles away.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!
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Old 31-Mar-2019, 11:52 PM   #2
OTAFAN
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WYJJ may be "over shooting" you since it's so close within 4 miles according to your TV Fool report. I've read numerous other posts here with a similar issue.

However, you might want to check rabbitears.info to see what it shows about your market area. Longley-Rice maps are quite useful too.

Since your antenna is directional, that might be a reason for your issue. Bigger gain, more narrow in directional pick up, if I remember correctly.

This is where we could use rabbit73! CQ, CQ, CQ rabbit73!

Last edited by OTAFAN; 1-Apr-2019 at 1:05 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 1-Apr-2019, 12:16 AM   #3
kb4
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Exactly need Rabbit73 . Have actually three different antennas I had two directional both pointed at WYJJ and one non directional and tried one with and without amplification just for heck of it. I will look at rabbit ears site etc.

Thanks
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Old 2-Apr-2019, 3:42 AM   #4
OTAFAN
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Keep us posted on your findings, kb4.

I would be interested to see if you can snag WYJJ and how you did it.

Thanks!
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Old 6-Apr-2019, 8:40 PM   #5
kb4
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Anyone have any more input, if not will try small non amplified antenna outside at about ten feet with no other obstructions in direction of the transmitter
Thanks
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Old 7-Apr-2019, 9:26 PM   #6
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb4 View Post
Exactly need Rabbit73 . Have actually three different antennas I had two directional both pointed at WYJJ and one non directional and tried one with and without amplification just for heck of it. I will look at rabbit ears site etc.
I'm not sure I can be much help.

WYJJ was transmitting on real channel 27 with 10 kW ERP and a directional antenna. They were only sending 9 Watts in your direction.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...dALLTV%26n%3d6

According to the FCC files they are now transmitting 15 kW ERP with a non-directional antenna on real channel 34, so the signal should be stronger than before.
https://rabbitears.info//market.php?...&callsign=WYJJ

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...s&facid=188036

https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?facid=188036

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...ion_id=2018779

Click on View LMS Authorization to see license.

If you still have a problem, call the station engineer.

If you send me your address and the coordinates of your antenna in a PM, I can try to make a more accurate analysis.
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Old 7-Apr-2019, 10:07 PM   #7
kb4
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Thanks for reply Rabbit 73. glad to see u posting. I had no idea the station used to have a directional antenna but does it now ? On one link it seems to say non-directional then it says pattern rotation 170 degrees. Either way I scanned it on real channel 34. I will send PM.

Thanks
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Old 8-Apr-2019, 3:07 AM   #8
rabbit73
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Thank you for the PM. I do see the trees in a satellite view. Trees block TV signals:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
scroll down to Trees and UHF

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb4
I hadn't considered calling the station engineer but will if not otherwise successful.

There are tall oak trees at 133 degrees magnetic that I definitely cannot go over since it would take about a 100 to 125 foot tower to do this. I can't even put antenna up in one of the trees or nearby pine and expect much improvement since the trees on ridge in that direction are taller tan trees on my land though they are about 100 yds away before they get higher than my trees. It would surely seem like if its not directional now I should be able to receive it. At present I can get it at times but almost never steadily for more than 30 seconds or so.
A report from rabbitears.info now shows WYJJ much stronger, but I don't think the software takes into consideration the main lobe of the signal is well above your location, as OTAFAN previously mentioned, making the actual signal at your antenna much weaker. Also, the new TVStudy software used by rabbitears.info and the FCC is only accurate to the nearest 0.5 km.



Besides the trees, you are in the shadow of the hill:



The signal would only be LOS if it cleared the hill and the trees on it.

Quote:
I have tried a separate uhf only outdoor antenna unamplified and amplified and directed toward WYJJ as well as other directions again without reliable reception.
The only thing left to try that I can think of is a very directional UHF antenna, like the 91XG or HDB91X aimed at WYJJ with the hope that you can pick up some signal coming through the trees. It might be necessary to try several locations.

WBBJ, which is almost in the same direction, will be moving to channel 35 during Phase 8:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...=&lss=&status=
Attached Images
File Type: jpg kb4TVFhisReportRE.JPG (182.5 KB, 510 views)
File Type: jpg kb4TVFhisWYJJprofileSection2.jpg (53.3 KB, 425 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 9-Apr-2019 at 3:00 AM.
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Old 8-Apr-2019, 7:18 AM   #9
kb4
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Thanks again, So not only the trees but the hill is also blocking the signal. I had pretty much assumed that the transmitting antenna being that high would clear the hill. I can go up another 15 feet or so if I mount antenna to the upper peak of roof . I will try the 91xg on temporary 20 foot pole first on flat portion of roof where I can move it around . Then if received mount it permanently. If received will probably take down the 8200 since I would no longer need vhf from memphis market and use two uhf antennas and 2 coal and a/b switch.

I wish I could find a source for a new remote a/b switch. Only ones I have found are the old radio shack ones and they are generally $50 to $100 .

When I get to it I will report what the results are . It will probably be a couple of weeks.

Thanks again
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Old 8-Apr-2019, 7:37 AM   #10
OTAFAN
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Glad to see rabbit73 come through, as he always does, with a better understanding of your issue kb4, and possible solutions.

Looking forward to seeing if you can still snag WYJJ.

Stay safe up on your roof! 73's for sure.....
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Old 8-Apr-2019, 7:24 PM   #11
Tower Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAFAN View Post
WYJJ may be "over shooting" you since it's so close within 4 miles according to your TV Fool report. I've read numerous other posts here with a similar issue.
That does happen with high power transmitters on tall towers or a mountaintop. In this case the tower height is about 400. The antenna is a low gain TUA-04. http://www.dielectric.com/antenna/tu...d-uhf-antenna/.

I would expect that the power toward kb4 would be very close to 15 KW.
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Old 9-Apr-2019, 12:20 AM   #12
OTAFAN
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Quote:
A report from rabbitears.info now shows WYJJ much stronger, but I don't think the software takes into consideration the main lobe of the signal is well above your location, as OTAFAN previously mentioned, making the actual signal at your antenna much weaker. Also, the new TVStudy software used by rabbitears.info and the FCC is only accurate to the nearest 0.5 km.
Thanks for your clarification, Tower Guy.

Perhaps my words, "over shooting" were a bit generic. I was just giving kb4 my best guess since nobody else had chimed in at the time. But with a more detailed look at his rabbitears.info report for WYJJ as rabbit73 mentioned in his above post, the signal is getting over him due to the hill and trees in front of his location. I think that's why kb4 is now going to try to snag the signal up around 20' on his roof. It seems promising that he'll achieve this, but again that's just my best guess and hope for him at the moment.

I've grown up on OTA TV and watched it all my life. I really enjoy it; think it's quite democratic or free as compared to Pay TV services since all you need is an antenna. And I have learned much on this forum to enhance this hobby of mine. But I'm not a tech like rabbit73, ADTech, or perhaps yourself. I'm more of a cheerleader to this forum. So my posts probably reflect more of a "street language" than exact technical preciseness. But I'm trying to improve as I continue to learn from this forum. I respect your input. Would "blocking" by the hill & trees at his location be more correct?

Thanks again, Tower Guy.

Last edited by OTAFAN; 9-Apr-2019 at 12:59 AM. Reason: additional sentence
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Old 10-Apr-2019, 6:58 PM   #13
kb4
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ok I got up on roof today and put up a temporary mount stand (no wind at all today) and found a winnegard uhf only antenna I think a 9032 in my storage container that i bought years ago to put up at a hunting trailer and never did.

I installed this at about 30 feet for now and if link successful this is a pic of the view toward WYJJ
/var/folders/rb/t24db8410r39tw7pfgnkbrqh0000gp/T/com.apple.iChat/Messages/Transfers/IMG_5253.jpeg

Yes, there are a lot of trees and beginning to leaf out pretty strong but as you hopefully can see there is also blue sky visible and this is taken for about 25 feet. It seems as though the antenna and certainly another 10 foot higher or so would be able to clear the hill or close but maybe not.

Questions:

1. rabitt73 did the pic indicating the hill blocking my antenna location show my antenna height of 35 feet I indicated. If so I must be looking up at an angle that would end up more than 400 ft high or so 3.7 miles away. More out of curiosity than anything can you tell fairly easily how high the antenna would have to be to get out of the weak zone.

2. I am using a 100 foot RG6 and won't need that much at present height maybe 65 feet. I seem to remember that anything longer than 50 to 100 feet could benefit from mast mounted amp due to the cable run loss that was about 3db. I will try amp anyway but about how much signal loss is there in 100 ft rg6?

3. About how much signal is loss in just a straight through connector such as to join two pieces of cable together?

4. About how much signal loss through a lightning arrestor/ground ?

5 I am sure the other local channels that are in same general direction as WYJJ would be overamplified if amp used, but would that cause any problem if I only tuned to WYJJ with this antenna ?

6. Is the reason a splitter loses about half the power or about 3 db to each tv connected to it with assume same length cable run just because of sending half of signal power to each tv or is it a loss in the mechanism or switch itself ? For example, if you connected only one tv would the signal still be dramatically decreased to the one tv?

Thanks , will let you know how amp does
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Old 10-Apr-2019, 7:07 PM   #14
kb4
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try link to pic a different way
IMG_5253.jpeg
IMG_5257.jpeg
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Old 10-Apr-2019, 7:18 PM   #15
kb4
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Try again
https://imgur.com/I0bGPmB
https://imgur.com/kj1QsdA
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Old 10-Apr-2019, 10:58 PM   #16
kb4
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I know I am kinda talking to myself but I completed adding the LNA 200 amp I already had to the temporary antenna setup. I now get WYJJ but with I still get a lot of fallouts but if you really wanted to watch something you could see more than half of it . Definitely still not acceptable and signal level fluctuates between mostly 37 and 45 on tv display and goes to zero with the fallouts.

Interestingly the other local channels are not overdriven by the amp. I suppose since WBBJ and WJKT are in same general direction the trees are blocking enough of their signal to prevent overload though they do show 93 to 100 signal level and even though WLJT is about 50 degrees off from others it gets 100 signal I would presume because it is not blocked by a hill or as thick of trees.

Now I will leave it where it is and at least see how the signal behaves for at least overnight. Its possible I could raise the height another 20 feet max without dedicated tower but unless clears hill may be thicker tree problems. The other possibility would be using stacked 91 xg s to hopefully get more signal and minimize multipath.

I would still welcome answers to above questions or any other observations.

Last edited by kb4; 29-May-2019 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 10-Apr-2019, 11:00 PM   #17
kb4
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addendum:

I will also consider moving it around in the limited space i have when I get wife to help with viewing results.
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Old 11-Apr-2019, 12:54 AM   #18
JoeAZ
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Greetings, I would try having your wife view reception and/or the signal meter
for WYJJ while you point your antenna slightly upwards, towards the top of the
trees or slightly towards the sky. The sometimes can improve signal strength.
Really, no easy solutions.....
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Old 11-Apr-2019, 3:36 AM   #19
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb4 View Post
ok I got up on roof today and put up a temporary mount stand (no wind at all today) and found a winnegard uhf only antenna I think a 9032 in my storage container that i bought years ago to put up at a hunting trailer and never did.




Very brave. Thanks for the photos; they always help to understand the problem.

The trees will always be a problem until you can get above them.
Quote:
Questions:

1. rabitt73 did the pic indicating the hill blocking my antenna location show my antenna height of 35 feet I indicated.
That image in post #8 is from a WYJJ terrain profile done by TVFool. I added the arrow to indicate the approximate height of your antenna:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...dALLTV%26n%3d6
Quote:
If so I must be looking up at an angle that would end up more than 400 ft high or so 3.7 miles away. More out of curiosity than anything can you tell fairly easily how high the antenna would have to be to get out of the weak zone.
No, not easily because the vertical scale is exaggerated. When I have more time, I will do a profile with other software that might help.
Quote:
2. I am using a 100 foot RG6 and won't need that much at present height maybe 65 feet. I seem to remember that anything longer than 50 to 100 feet could benefit from mast mounted amp due to the cable run loss that was about 3db. I will try amp anyway but about how much signal loss is there in 100 ft rg6?
5 or 6 dB.
Quote:
3. About how much signal is loss in just a straight through connector such as to join two pieces of cable together?
The loss of an F-81 is less than a dB.
Quote:
4. About how much signal loss through a lightning arrestor/ground ?
If you mean a grounding block, about the same as an F-81. If you mean something like the TII 212, that has an active device between the coax center conductor and the grounded shield, they have been known to degrade weak signals.

https://www.amazon.com/TII-Broadband...s%2C179&sr=1-6
Quote:
5. I am sure the other local channels that are in same general direction as WYJJ would be overamplified if amp used, but would that cause any problem if I only tuned to WYJJ with this antenna ?
It might, because while the tuner is able to tune to a specific channel, a preamp doesn't have a tuned circuit, so it is wide open to all signals.
Quote:
6. Is the reason a splitter loses about half the power or about 3 db to each tv connected to it with assume same length cable run just because of sending half of signal power to each tv or is it a loss in the mechanism or switch itself ? For example, if you connected only one tv would the signal still be dramatically decreased to the one tv?
Each output of a 2-way splitter is 3.5 dB weaker than the signal into the splitter; 3 dB for half the initial signal plus 0.5 dB internal splitter loss. This equal division of the initial signal stays the same no matter what is connected to the outputs.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg kb4TVFhisUHFant_1.jpg (109.1 KB, 382 views)
File Type: jpg kb4TVFhisUHFant2_1.jpg (341.7 KB, 376 views)
__________________
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Last edited by rabbit73; 11-Apr-2019 at 4:02 AM.
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Old 11-Apr-2019, 4:57 AM   #20
kb4
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Smile

thanks for the answers to all the questions. I added some eyelets and temporary rope tie downs as the wind picked up some and is supposed to be about 18 mph by noon tomorrow. Since dark the reception improved some with few dropouts but still quite a few pixelations but the signal strength remains at about 45 max.

Its hard to tell in the picture but the antenna is tilted up toward WYJJ some.
My wife was with her mother today who had elective back procedure but she will be here during daylight hours after tomorrow to help but I will probably have to take her out to eat to get her to help !

Thanks again for all the help , no hurry for antenna height needed to clear hill doubt I will be able to get it high enough anyway.

an un related question. I received the xg91 today that I was going to try this weekend and when assembling it I noticed that one boom joint comes together touching each other the one closest to the reflectors and the other two sections have about a 16 th of an inch gap between the booms and though the braces are same length it looks like space to the hole not the slot is a little less on one of the brackets . I could easily modify the hole or the slot to make the boom sections touch each other like I would think they should. I am unclear as to whether this is intended or not. I can call antennas direct tomorrow and see what they say if no one knows. Also there is an element just in front of the dipole that is permanently mounted to the boom that I have not seen in any pics of the antenna. Just wondering if this is supposed to be there or maybe it was a return and not correct parts. I will try to post pics
https://imgur.com/dSDnzV6
https://imgur.com/eDEBg1N
https://imgur.com/X9n4GxU

Again any help would be appreciated

Last edited by kb4; 11-Apr-2019 at 5:02 AM.
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