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Old 25-Jan-2015, 6:41 PM   #21
Pete Higgins
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Is that a picture of your array?

HDTV-OTA,

Quote:
Is that a picture of your array, Xtreme Signal (HDB8X) stacked with a VHF antenna above and below?
Yes, that is a picture of the array that I currently have up. Its only one of many that Ive tried. The top antenna is an AntennaCraft Y10 7-13 for high VHF, the middle two are Solid Signal HDB8-Xs and the bottom antenna is a Winegard HD-6065 10 Element FM Band (88 108 MHz) Antenna. The Y10 7-13 is mounted at the top of the tower to minimize interaction between it and the HD-6065.

Ive actually tried the Y10 7-13 with a single Antennas Direct 91XG, dual 91XGs, a single HDB8-X and dual HDB8-Xs. The dual UHF antennas yield 1 2 dB additional signal strength (as measured with a Software Defined Radio (SDR) Spectrum Analyzer) with very little measurable change in SNR. The single & dual HDB8-Xs slightly outperformed the single & dual 91XGs on the channels of interest @ my location.

When propagation is favorable, there isnt any real advantage to running dual antennas. As near as I can tell, when propagation isnt favorable having dual antennas only prolongs reception by a few minutes before signal is lost.

Here is a link to my TV Fool report for you to compare with yours:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...2c150a61252e0c

Most of the shows my wife & I like are on CBS, UHF channel 43 (2.1) @ -112.9 dBm from LA or VHF channel 8 (8.1) @ -96.0 dBm from San Diego. Unfortunately, I dont get either reliably. Occasionally, I get both, sometimes I get one (usually LA) but not the other and frequently neither come in. Even with dual UHF antennas we can start watching a 1 hour show and part way through it will fade away. Fortunately, we have Time Warner cable ($270.00/mo.) so this only became an issue when they were at odds with each other. I actually have two TV arrays, one I leave pointed at San Diego & one I leave pointed towards LA. During the CBS blackout period, I recorded our shows from both locations and we only ended up missing one 1 hour show.
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Old 27-Jan-2015, 1:45 AM   #22
tripelo
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Thank you HDTV-OTA for your kind words and comments.

Regarding your inquiry, others have provided good information in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV-OTA View Post
…could I ask what antenna(s) setup would you recommend for these UHF & VHF channels?

1. Winegard HD8200P
2. Channel Master 3671 Crossfire
3. XG-91
4. Antennacraft SuperG 1483 (the stacked Hooverman version)
5. Stacked CM-4228HD
6. Stacked DB8’s…
HDTV-OTA, a few words about each of your proposed antennas:

1. Winegard HD8200P: Has low VHF, upper VHF and UHF capability. Large, strong and well built. Long elements are subject to ice loading and bird loading. Relatively heavy and high wind load. Would require strong support

2. Channel Master 3671: Has low VHF, upper VHF and UHF capability, a bit more gain on VHF channels than the HD8200P. Large, strong and well built. Long elements are subject to ice loading and bird loading. Relatively heavy and high wind load. Would require strong support. No longer being manufactured.

Either antenna #1 or #2 will have less UHF gain than the single band antennas listed below.

3. 91XG: UHF. Relatively moderate size, relatively large compared to many UHF. Strong enough. High gain on upper UHF channels. Directional & probably highest F/B ratio currently available, helpful for multipath, co-channels and some adjacent channels.

4. Antennacraft SuperG (stacked): UHF. Large for UHF, fairly light. Not strong, but probably strong enough. Of all currently available antennas, most likely has highest average gain across the UHF band. Directional, has low F/B ratio (not good for co-channel or adjacent at rear).

5. Stacked CM-4228HD: UHF and upper VHF. Have stacked old 4228’s, newer stack may be similar. It is Large for UHF, heavier but not as heavy as original 4228’s. Strong enough. Not sure, but Gain could be comparable but a bit lower than stacked Super G’s. Has relatively high wind load, would require strong support.

6. ______* DB8’s: UHF No experience with original DB8, probably has its highest gain at upper channels (similar to the 91XG). There are two versions. New version is DB8e, has relatively high gain across the UHF band. Well designed incorporating a good combining technique for the individual single bays to maximize gain. Directional with both bays aligned. Fairly unique feature allowing bays to be separately aimed. Strong, well built, with high quality components.

Stacked*

The main things a stack does is provide more gain, more wind load, and more weight. Typically, everything doubles except gain.

Because of losses and suboptimal spacing for some channels, the gain increase is generally less than 3 dB. A horizontal stack increases directivity in azimuth (horizontal) angle, a vertical stack increases directivity in vertical (elevation). Depending on stack orientation there is a penalty with some backlobes and sidelobes being made worse, although some will be improved.

.

Last edited by tripelo; 30-Jan-2015 at 7:17 PM. Reason: Remove unneeed link
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Old 27-Jan-2015, 4:40 AM   #23
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@ Tripelo. Your welcome.

Assuredly, your correct, there has been some good information posted and many readers may find informative and helpful.

Ive read a thousand posts over many months and I cant recall reading about so many modern, popular, and high performance antennas being discussed at once.

Given my location - I wish I knew what the best antenna system was to avoid much trial and error.

Given my fringe location - Im planning to pull the trigger on a large Yagi that has low VHF, upper VHF and UHF capability, since VHF may be easier to receive. Also, being hopeful to receive some UHF channels. If not, may consider adding a good 8 Bay below it with a preamp to increase UHF reception.

For RG-6 Coaxial cable, what brand is the best?

Coaxial cable, has anyone used RG-11? If so, how much improvement in signal/reception quality?
Where is it sold?

THANKS for greatly detailing the listed antennas Very helpful.

1. Winegard HD8200P
2. Channel Master 3671 Crossfire
3. XG-91
4. Antennacraft SuperG 1483 (the stacked Hooverman version)
5. Stacked CM-4228HD
6. Stacked DB8s

@ GroundUrMast. Thanks for comparing, explaining, and sharing your experience in the performance difference of the 91XG and the DB8E. I think the Y10713 is a great antenna for Hi VHF CH7 CH13, but Im concerned, given my location, 65 70 miles may exceed its limits. Also, I like the fact that it will be less susceptible to FM Xmitter signal power interference and allows for more flexibility when fine tuning.

@ Pete Higgins. Thanks for explaining the types of antennas in your setup. Thanks for explaining the combination of the Y10-7-13 with single/double 91XGs, and single/double HDB8-Xs, and what the performance results were. Nice - two arrays, one pointing at SD and the other at LA.

Time Warner cable given your Forte in OTA antenna subject, I thought you cut the cord. Backup Plan?

Thanks again to any all replies, advice, knowledge, and wisdom much appreciated!
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Old 27-Jan-2015, 5:30 AM   #24
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I'm confident that the Y10713 is your best hope for reliable reception of real CH-8, WFAA (ABC). The HD8200 and CM-3671 only come close to the same performance in the H-VHF band.

It's quite doubtful that either of the all channel antennas you've listed would deliver reliable reception of real CH-2 or CH-4.

Obviously, none of the UHF only options can offer a shot at the VHF signals shown in your TVFR.
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Old 27-Jan-2015, 9:48 AM   #25
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@ GroundUr Mast. Thanks for reply.

You stated that the Y10713 is my best hope for reliable reception for real CH-8, WFAA(ABC). Absolutely, I want to receive ABC, BUT, what about the other VHF-Lo & VHF-Hi channels? The HD8200 is a large, long, and a wide UHF/VHF-Lo/VHF-Hi SOB and the CM-3671 is discontinued (unfortunately).

It goes without saying, for my location, I WANT to receive UHF Channels CH 14 - CH 48 - BUT WHAT ANTENNA WILL, CAN, SHOULD, or POSSIBLY DO THE JOB? To date, I have yet someone to make an absolute, most likely, Can, Could, Should, or state a comprehensive recommendation option for an antenna combo or antenna setup.

I recently bought and tried and HD4228 (60+ miles UHF) and received ZERO channels. It was possibly a return or used item, box was opened, bent top left deflector, missing 2 hardware bolts, and partially assembled. Who knows the history or condition of this HD4228? Could the balun be defective? Is it possible for an antenna to arrive with a defective balun? Could the phasing harness be defective? Could the impedance transformer be defective? Possibly. Based upon my 24 Year Naval Avionics Electrician background I think it is possible. Attempted reception with a 2014 55 LED TV and a 2012 HP all-one-one CPU w/ TV tuner with 4 different coax cables Zero channels. By all accounts, after research and reading numerous positive reviews, I should have received something and had high hopes for it. No hidden agenda towards the 4228, I wanted it to work!

You stated, Obviously, none of the UHF only options can offer a shot at the VHF signals shown in your TVFR.

Question: What UHF only antenna can, will, or should receive UHF channels CH14 CH-48 at 61-70 miles distance?

Thanks for your help! Any and all advice is appreciated!!
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Old 27-Jan-2015, 11:49 AM   #26
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Several tips:

1. You have no receivable low-VHF in or anywhere near Dallas. Those listings for channels 2 & 4 are for licenses that are not on the air. Even if they were, they would be unreceivable at your location 95+% of the time no matter what you install. There is no useful point in considering one of the all-channel antennas at this time, that wasted aluminum could be put to use for something more useful than a bird perch, like beer cans!

2. I tested a number of retail store (Lowes, Best Buy, Radio Shack, Walmart, etc) coaxial cable products several years ago when we we qualifying a new vendor for our "basic" low-loss cable. There wasn't but a hairsbreadth of difference between any of them except the RG6 Quad Shield was slightly more lossy as expected. Avoid the temptation to "upgrade" to RG11 unless its use is specifically indicated. Its only advantage is that it is less lossy than the RG6 which is useful if you have to be ultraconservative with coaxial cable insertion loss. Such situations usually come only with either extraordinarily long runs or in runs where amplification cannot be done. The drawback of RG11 is that its much thicker, is much harder to work with, and requires tools that are cost several times what RG6 tools would cost. Since your location REQUIRES a preamp, the consideration of RG11 is moot as the amp if properly selected, will cover all your cabling losses.

3. Any of the larger UHF antennas already suggested will likely do adequately. The DB8e probably has the highest gain across the band of channels that you have on hand.

4. The AntennaCraft 10-element Yagi is probably your best shot at WFAA.

5. Regarding your test with the CM4228, it would suggest that *something* was defective. Balun, coaxial cable (especially if not new), cabling configuration perhaps, or something along that line.

Time to quit hemming and hawing and get some new metal up in the air!
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Old 27-Jan-2015, 3:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
5. Regarding your test with the CM4228, it would suggest that *something* was defective. Balun, coaxial cable (especially if not new), cabling configuration perhaps, or something along that line.
To that list, I would add, check the tuner configuration... again. If set to 'cable' or 'auto' rather than 'air' or 'antenna' you would either certainly fail to see any or likely fail to see any OTA signals.

@HDTV-OTA, If we were neighbours, youd see a DB8E and Y10713 above my roof or on a tower.

A couple of preamps to consider... The Antennas Direct PA-18 (intend for weak signal area only) and the RCA TVPRAMP1R (more of a universal application design)

The specs of the new "Juice" preamp from Antennas Direct are very good for a 'universal fit' preamp... I have a sample in hand but need to finish recovering from recent surgery before I can safely get on the roof to tilt the mast down...
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 3:05 AM   #28
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@ADTech

Much appreciated you pointed out channels 2 & 4 are for licenses and not on the air. Thats good to know, but how do I read my TVFool report to see or know that?

Coaxial cable comparison good to know you have tested and have results for various cable brands. Also, the RG6 Quad Shied had more loss who would have known? For RG11 coax, good points on its characteristics. If the research I read was accurate on RG11, its loss was approximately 1.5dB - 2dB less than RG-6 Coax at a 100Ft. Good analogy.

AntennaCraft 10-element Yagi is probably my best shot at WFAA. Is there a possible chance to receive the other channels?

Thanks again for opining and discussing channels available, antenna choices for my location, coax cables comparison, and pre-amp requirement. Thats information that I and others can find useful and apply. Much appreciated.

P.S. Just had an epiphany for UHF, you mentioned beer cans I can cut my empty beer cans up into bowtie shapes (given their sharp edges, birds may not perch on it), spot tie them to my BBQ grill rack, and connect a 75 Ohm resistor balun to it and stick that metal in the air! 
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 3:38 AM   #29
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RE. Silent stations and virtual channels carried by active stations, one of the most useful resources is www.rabbitears.info. TVFool 'specializes' in predictions of real channel reception and only offers limited correlation of real vs virtual channel mapping. TV Fool makes no effort to provide a comprehensive and detailed report of all the sub-channels carried by a station. www.rabbitears.info offers some overlap of the data that can be found at TVFool but goes much deeper into the current status of each station and the virtual channel(s) transported over the real RF channel.

The difference between the loss in RG-6 & RG-11 are about what you cite. As ADTech mentioned, losses due to cable and splitters is the job of a preamp or distribution amplifier. If you needed to run over 500' from the antenna to your house, RG-11 may be helpful. The normal cable run in a residential setting can be done with RG-6, without problems due to slope loss (high loss at high frequencies vs less loss at lower frequencies).

The Y10713 is you best shot at receiving any of the channels in the H-VHF band (real CH-7 through CH-13). There are several listed, but you'll need to aim the antenna at them to have any hope of reliable reception, which means one fixed aim antenna can't deliver all of them. Also, as you go down the list, you soon see co-channel and adjacent-channel warnings. depending on the actual severity of the interference, the weaker signals will be that much harder to get.
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 3:41 AM   #30
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV-OTA View Post
P.S. Just had an epiphany for UHF, you mentioned beer cans I can cut my empty beer cans up into bowtie shapes (given their sharp edges, birds may not perch on it), spot tie them to my BBQ grill rack, and connect a 75 Ohm resistor balun to it and stick that metal in the air! 
OK. If you actually make a UHF antenna by turning beer cans into bowties, spot tie them to the grill rack, and then put the whole grill up on your roof, we want a picture!!!! :-)
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 3:45 AM   #31
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@GroundUrMast

Thanks for pointing out the tuner configuration - numerous times, I attempted scanning on both Cable and Antenna settings to rule out the unknown.

You stated, If we were neighbors, youd see a DB8E and Y10713 above my roof or on a tower
Your antenna suggestion is Exactly the kind of information Im looking for.
If one needs a house built, one might confer with a carpenter/builder.
If one needs 6 acres of steel sovereign territory, carrying 90 fighter jets, with 1 million pounds of laser guided ordnance, parked off the coast of a foe, then one would call on the US Navy.
Thats the reason Im going to the Antenna Reception Pros.

A couple of preamps to consider... The Antennas Direct PA-18 (intend for weak signal area only) and the RCA TVPRAMP1R (more of a universal application design)

Yeah, you mentioned the new "Juice" preamp from Antennas Direct. I just searched and below is link with a video and the SPECS: http://www.antennasdirect.com/blog/tag/pre-amp/

FULL 19 dB Signal increase on UHF stations; 17.5 dB on VHF
2 dB noise margin
Cell Phone and Data Filtering
Includes Power Supply and DC Power Inserter & Mounting Straps
Easily installs in most homes/apartments.
The JUICE Preamp is now available and ready for shipment.
PRICE: $79.99

It looks promising, designed well, compact, and seems to be built well.
Thanks for bringing that for review.

Wish you all the best and a God speed in your recovery!
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 7:07 AM   #32
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@GroundUrMast

Thanks for introducing me to www.rabbitears.info. Checked it out - Did some browsing, there is lots of stuff to be found. Please tell me how or where I should focus to find what I need for my location(DFW, Decatur).

RG6 vs RG11 Coax Thanks for offering additional, supportive and practical advice on its usage.

Hi- VHF reception Y10713 thanks for supporting, recommending and explaining my best shot, and aiming just one antenna and its results.

The experts seem to solve the reception of UHF/VHF with a scalpel, and Im attempting to solve it with a machete or sword!!

Wish You All the Best and GOD Speed In Your Recovery!


P.S. Opportunity may knock, but Jack FM just breaks in!!! :-) Dang!

P.S.2 I love my Jack-in-the-Box, but most of all I love my Jack FM!! :-)
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 7:25 AM   #33
HDTV-OTA
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@ Jake V.

P.S. Just had an epiphany for UHF, you mentioned beer cans – I can cut my empty beer cans up into bowtie shapes (given their sharp edges, birds may not perch on it), spot tie them to my BBQ grill rack, and connect a 75 Ohm resistor balun to it and stick that metal in the air! 

Glad I can help!!! The Wheels and Gears are turning! :-) A picture could, should, and can be provided!!

P.S. - No purchase necessary, earning your trust since I went Jack “FM”.
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 5:01 PM   #34
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I use this URL: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php as a start point for most of my searches on rabbitears.info. When you enter one call sign in the search box, you'll land on a page that lists all stations for that geographic market.

Kudos to tripelo (webmaster of rabbitears) for developing and maintaining such an valuable resource.
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 9:39 PM   #35
HDTV-OTA
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Thanks for the URL for searching “rabbitears.info” Sure, many “BZ’s” to tripelo for developing and maintaining a tremendous resource.
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 10:13 PM   #36
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@ tripelo,

Recently learned of and viewed “rabbitears.info”. Tremendous resource!

Thanks for providing the different preamp comparison, very useful.

Good to know: “The RF environment in DFW consists of dense signals. Virtually every usable UHF channel is occupied, only 2 VHF stations (Channels 8 & 9).”

Question: Need your advice, thoughts, and wisdom. If you were my neighbor, close enough that the house appeared to be a duplex, Given my location, what antenna or antenna options/systems would you install?

I’m approximately 60 - 70 miles NW from the Cedars Hills antenna farm.

Large, small, individual or combination UHF/VHF antennas do not matter for my location. (Of course more channels the better?!)

Below is my report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...2c154fe5313e71


Thanks - much appreciated for any and all advice!!

Last edited by HDTV-OTA; 29-Jan-2015 at 2:41 AM.
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Old 28-Jan-2015, 11:12 PM   #37
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Quote:
Kudos to tripelo (webmaster of rabbitears)
Oops, wrong "trip".

The Webmaster of Rabbitears.info goes by "Trip in VA" or "Trip Ericson". Trip lives near Washington DC and now works for the FCC supporting the new software for the looming reverse spectrum auction.

http://www.rabbitears.info/contact.php


Our local "Tripelo" lives near DFW.
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Old 29-Jan-2015, 12:14 AM   #38
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Once again, I'm
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Old 29-Jan-2015, 2:39 AM   #39
HDTV-OTA
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Thanks ADTech. Trip Ericson is the man!!

No worries, It happens to the Best of us!!
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Old 30-Jan-2015, 7:29 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV-OTA View Post
@ tripelo,...
Given my location, what antenna or antenna options/systems would you install?...
Not sure.

Unless there is something a bit unusual that has not been discussed;

There are several good, or maybe acceptable, antenna options with preamplifier.

Quote:
...Large, small, individual or combination UHF/VHF antennas do not matter for my location. (Of course more channels the better?!) ...
Seems the first thing to do would be to figure out why your current CM4228HD cannot receive any stations.

If a functional CM4228HD with preamplifier and proper setup does not provide intermittent detection of any stations, then likely no combination of other antennas would suffice.

.
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