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Old 13-Mar-2014, 8:54 PM   #1
ajia
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Trying to cut through the BS

So I cut the cable quite a few years ago, then cut satellite about a year ago and went OTA.
I ended up purchasing a LAVA HD2605.
Mistake. Some channels come in, but not the range advertised (hence my title). Plus the motorized rotator does not hold the antenna steady in a breeze. Sometimes I find it pointing in a slightly different direction.

So here's the particulars, I live in Ventura, CA, 93001 by the coast.
I'd like to receive the LA stations for the major channels, but if possible also the local channels to the north (Santa Barbara, etc).

Here's my analysis:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5b9420bbce5b8b

Though I am a bit skeptical because it shows the L.A. stations at 70 miles away as only needing "An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels"

Any recommendations would be appreciated.
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 5:09 PM   #2
teleview
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As to the Lava antenna and others similar.

If the antenna looks like a antenna in a Grade B 1950's SiFi movie , Do Not buy it.

The Magic Tv Antenna manufactures and sellers are retiring to a life of luxury.

I do not . manufacture , sell , recommend , and am not a shill , for magic tv antennas.

So I live a simple life of my social security check and retirement check.

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The Current Real Tv channels that are being Transmitted and Received in , USA , Canada , Mexico , are.

VHF low band channels 2 thru 6.

VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

UHF band channels 14 thru 51.

Your reception location has receivable Tv channels in All 3 channel bands.

The Tvfool Real Channels List Column shows the Real Channels that are Transmitted and Received.

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Recommend install a , http://www.antennacraft.net.

HD1800 All channel antenna aimed at about 80 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna.

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Install a , http://www.antennacraft.net.

10G201 preamplifier.

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For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

For 4 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-4D , 4 way splitter.

Buy the , HFS-2D , HFS-3D , HFS-4D , splitters at , http://www.amazon.com , or , http://www.hollandelectronics.com.

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Here are some above the roof antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html.
Use the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html.
Use the , ronard(4560) , eave antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224) .

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at , http://www.ronard.com , or , http://www.ronard.com.

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Home Depot has , 10 foot 6 inch lengths of , TOP RAIL , chain link fence PIPE that makes good antenna mast pipe , the price is low about 10 dollars.

You can use the full length of the pipe or cut the pipe shorter.

Guy wires are not required when the full length of pipe is install in a strong and sturdy antenna mount such as the ronard antenna mounts.

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Here are some places to buy antennas and and etc. .

http://www.amazon.com.

http://www.antennacraft.net.

http://www.hollandelectronics.com.

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As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , have a Negative Effect on Broadcast Tv Reception and so buildings and other obstructions including you own roof and building.

Some and not all Negative Effects are.

Absorbing and Blocking Reception.

Multi-Path Reflecting Tv Signals Bouncing All Around.

The Best Practice for Reliable Reception is to install the antenna at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the directions of reception including your own roof and building.

The directions of reception at your location are , East and West North West.

Last edited by teleview; 14-Mar-2014 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 5:48 PM   #3
ajia
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Nobody??
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 6:19 PM   #4
tomfoolery
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I don't know anything about reception in that area, but I have relatives in the Houston, TX area who have a similar report, with similar distances, and get all they need with a $12 Radio Shack rabbit ears unit with UHF loop. So I don't think the report is out of line, though the high-vhf stations may need more gain than a single dipole can offer, especially those in the yellow.

All the UHF stations might benefit from something more directional, like the Terk HDTVi (the unamplified one). I would probably give a cheap rabbit ears a try,, and go from there. Return it if it's not good enough. You may find you get enough without going further, though.

Edit: Click on the line containing a station of interest to see why it's line-of-sight or 1-edge. Looks like the transmitters are on a mountain, and your house can 'see' them (LOS), while only some in the yellow have 1-edge conditions.

Of course, a decent outdoor will be better than an indoor, but I'll leave it to others to make specific recommendations.

Last edited by tomfoolery; 14-Mar-2014 at 6:23 PM.
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 6:32 PM   #5
stvcmty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajia View Post
Here's my analysis:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5b9420bbce5b8b

Though I am a bit skeptical because it shows the L.A. stations at 70 miles away as only needing "An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels"
The analysis was generated at 25’. To see what would be more reasonable for an indoor antenna at a TV on the first floor, run an analysis at about 6’.


If you want a “check” for the TV fool model results, you could go to http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php and put in your zip, an 80 or 100 mile radius, your address, turn on the signal strength option, and put in the height you want to put your antenna at. Then compare the dBm column from rabbit ears with the Pwr (dBm) column from TV fool. I have seen differences from a tenth of a dBm to 16dBm. In my experience Rabbit Ears is less optimistic about what gets a LOS path, which could push stations from easy to get to requiring some work to get.


The antenna you describe is an example of a company selling junk to vulnerable consumers.


Given the extreme distance between you and the transmitters, I would either put up a HD7698P or a DB8e and an Y10-7-13 with a UVSJ pointed at 80 degrees magnetic.

KUHD analog on RF6 is probably being used as a radio station, so I doubt you need a VHF Low antenna. (If you look for K02RB (RF 2) in the FCC database, it is not there. If you look up KVTU (RF 3) in the FCC database, they have multiple applications in so their long term future on channel 3 is questionable, rabbit ears has them listed as off air. Long term, the effort for a VHF-low antenna pointed at Los Angeles is not justified by the low power stations on chs 2-6)
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 7:03 PM   #6
ajia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stvcmty View Post
The analysis was generated at 25’. To see what would be more reasonable for an indoor antenna at a TV on the first floor, run an analysis at about 6’.
Wouldn't reception be better at 25'?
The antenna would be mounted on the roof of our 2 story house.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stvcmty View Post
If you want a “check” for the TV fool model results, you could go to http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php and put in your zip, an 80 or 100 mile radius, your address, turn on the signal strength option, and put in the height you want to put your antenna at. Then compare the dBm column from rabbit ears with the Pwr (dBm) column from TV fool. I have seen differences from a tenth of a dBm to 16dBm. In my experience Rabbit Ears is less optimistic about what gets a LOS path, which could push stations from easy to get to requiring some work to get.
Still, wouldn't an outdoor antenna be better, or at least just as good as a rooftop antenna? Rabbitears seem so......50's!


Quote:
Originally Posted by stvcmty View Post
The antenna you describe is an example of a company selling junk to vulnerable consumers.
Again......reason for the thread title. Now coming to the experts for guidance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stvcmty View Post
Given the extreme distance between you and the transmitters, I would either put up a HD7698P or a DB8e and an Y10-7-13 with a UVSJ pointed at 80 degrees magnetic.
Thank you for that. The HD7698P if I only wanted Mt. Wilson, or the DB8e if i want MT. Wilson & the tower to the north??

Quote:
Originally Posted by stvcmty View Post
KUHD analog on RF6 is probably being used as a radio station, so I doubt you need a VHF Low antenna. (If you look for K02RB (RF 2) in the FCC database, it is not there. If you look up KVTU (RF 3) in the FCC database, they have multiple applications in so their long term future on channel 3 is questionable, rabbit ears has them listed as off air. Long term, the effort for a VHF-low antenna pointed at Los Angeles is not justified by the low power stations on chs 2-6)
In other words look for an antenna that is geared towards VHF High, right?

Thanks again for your help.

Last edited by ajia; 14-Mar-2014 at 7:13 PM.
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 7:20 PM   #7
stvcmty
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You seemed to be questioning the green coloring of the top of the TV fool plot. If you had an indoor antenna at 25’ it would probably get many of the stations in green. If you ran a TV fool plot for where an indoor antenna actually would be, the green highlighted stations on that plot would be what an indoor antenna at that height may get. You used the word “skeptical” for the TV fool output which is why I suggested running the same type of search on rabbitears; when models agree it is more likely the modeled results are close to the real world (or the models have similar limits).

A 25’ high outdoor antenna is a good thing.

What station is your local to the north?

You would do well with a UHF antenna and a VHF-high antenna, or a channel 7-51 or 7-69 antenna.

You probably could use a smaller antenna than the “big guns” (HD7698P or a DB8e and an Y10-7-13), but some of your stations drop to a 1 edge path, and a higher gain/more directional antenna will deal better with any scattering caused by the terrain causing the 1 edge path. Given how tight of a group the stations form (all within two degrees), there is little need for a broad beam width antenna other than to have some wiggle room when aiming.
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 8:01 PM   #8
brg88tx
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interesting, the recommendations in this thread range from rabbit ears to a huge 14 foot long antenna. this report is similar to mine in that it shows green for stations pretty far away. in my case 50 miles instead of 70.
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 8:10 PM   #9
tomfoolery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brg88tx View Post
interesting, the recommendations in this thread range from rabbit ears to a huge 14 foot long antenna.
Actually, I missed the part where he tried the Lava, and was suggesting the rabbit ears mainly to get a reference before investing the long green in something with more gain, unless it worked for him, especially if it can be returned. That's what I get for speed-reading.
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 8:12 PM   #10
stvcmty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brg88tx View Post
interesting, the recommendations in this thread range from rabbit ears to a huge 14 foot long antenna. this report is similar to mine in that it shows green for stations pretty far away. in my case 50 miles instead of 70.
My knee jerk recommendation would have been a HBU44, but then I looked at the distances. 70 miles is a long distance, and that means there is a lot of air where something could block some of the signal (fog, smoke, dust…), so having more than enough gain leaves a good margin for usable reception even when conditions are not ideal.
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Old 14-Mar-2014, 8:25 PM   #11
ajia
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stvcmty, did I plot for an indoor antenna? If I did I was never thinking of an indoor antenna & must have done that by mistake. I am only thinking of an outdoor antenna.
As far as transmitters from the north, here is a screengrab of the 'local' transmitters, KEYT is from Santa Barbara & I'd like to get KCOY from Santa Maria if I could


photo storage
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Old 15-Mar-2014, 2:29 AM   #12
ajia
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Something happen with the server time/date??
Yesterday's replies are marked as today....reply #2 was not there yesterday!
And the recommendations are mostly pointing to AntennaCraft!!????
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Old 15-Mar-2014, 3:26 AM   #13
teleview
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Test reception of KEYT.

Aim the HD1800 at KEYT and scan for channels.
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Old 15-Mar-2014, 5:40 AM   #14
GroundUrMast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajia View Post
So I cut the cable quite a few years ago, then cut satellite about a year ago and went OTA.
I ended up purchasing a LAVA HD2605.
Mistake. Some channels come in, but not the range advertised (hence my title). Plus the motorized rotator does not hold the antenna steady in a breeze. Sometimes I find it pointing in a slightly different direction.

So here's the particulars, I live in Ventura, CA, 93001 by the coast.
I'd like to receive the LA stations for the major channels, but if possible also the local channels to the north (Santa Barbara, etc).

Here's my analysis:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5b9420bbce5b8b

Though I am a bit skeptical because it shows the L.A. stations at 70 miles away as only needing "An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels"

Any recommendations would be appreciated.
The Antennacraft HBU-33 or HBU-44 would give you all of the signals from Mt. Wilson highlighted in green and yellow... Except for the audio only KUHD-LP on real CH-6. If real CH-6 is a signal you would like to have, then the HD1800 or HD1850 makes sense. (Some of the weaker signals highlighted in red may be received but a larger antenna would be indicated if that's your desire.)

KCOY is blocked by terrain. I see no realistic hope for reception of it. KEYT is still possible... I'd start by aiming the HBU-XX that direction to see which signals are strong enough to be seen. From there, you can decide if you want to add a second antenna, and which type. There are several ways to integrate a separate antennas into a usable system: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2882

(For various reasons, including spam suppression, posts may need moderator approval before appearing in the public forum. This can produce the confusing symptoms you've observed. Thanks for your understanding and patience.)
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Old 15-Mar-2014, 1:52 PM   #15
ajia
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.......(For various reasons, including spam suppression, posts may need moderator approval before appearing in the public forum. This can produce the confusing symptoms you've observed. Thanks for your understanding and patience.)
That makes perfect sense, thanks for the explanation.

Follow up question: Would the Antennacraft HBU-33 or HBU-44 with a second antenna make more sense than a DB8-E with it's multi-directional capabilities, making installation easier (IMO)?
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Old 15-Mar-2014, 5:58 PM   #16
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I recommend Test reception to the North West with the HD1800 antenna First.

Aim the HD1800 at the North West group of Tv stations.

Aim the HD1800 antenna at about 282 degree magnetic compass direction.

And Rescan for channels.

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Reason.

The Tv fool channel list is showing the Red [c] and Red [a] boxes beside the Tv stations call signs.

The [c] is co-channel (same channel) interference issues of the Tv stations to the East and North West.

The [a] is adjacent channel interference (Tv station channel numbers on either or both sides of the channel. Of the Tv stations to the East and North West.

KEYT is showing adjacent channel interference and KEYT is Very Weak Signal Strength and has 2 Edge Path land obstructions=hills and mountains.

The Tvfool channel list shows KEYT as having , Path 2 Edge.

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If the reception Test goes well .

Then I recommend a Completely Separate Antenna System for reception of the North West group of Tv stations.

I recommend install a Separate HD1800 antenna.

The coaxes and every thing will be completely separate from the other antenna system.

A , www.mcmelectronics.com , model 32-4425 , A/B antenna switch is used to change antennas at each Tv location.

Or

A separate Tuner is connected to the antenna and to the Tv at each Tv location.

Here are some tuner , tuner recorders.

www.epvision.com

www.channelmasterstore.com

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Why the HD1800??

Because the HD1800 has a High front to back ratio , the antenna does well at reducing signals at the back of the antenna.

Reducing signals of the opposite directions ( north west and east) is correct for your reception situation.

-------------------------------

Do the Test of reception and see what happens.

Last edited by teleview; 16-Mar-2014 at 9:21 PM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 15-Mar-2014, 8:00 PM   #17
GroundUrMast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajia View Post
...

Follow up question: Would the Antennacraft HBU-33 or HBU-44 with a second antenna make more sense than a DB8-E with it's multi-directional capabilities, making installation easier (IMO)?
The DB8E is a great high gain (long range) UHF antenna. When both panels are facing the same direction, I would not use the term 'multi-directional' to describe it's reception pattern, in this configuration I would describe it as a 'high gain directional' antenna. When adjusted to provide a wider beam-width (multi-directional), the gain is reduced. Because the DB8E covers only the UHF portion of the OTA TV broadcasting bands, it could be a part of a solution, but you would still need another antenna that covers the VHF portion of the OTA bands.

The HBU-XX antennas are designed to cover the UHF and High-VHF channels (real channels 14 and higher, and real channels 7 through 13).

The HD1800 covers all channels.

The F/B ratio of the HD1800 is fine but not unique, the F/B ratio of the other antennas is also good.

So, to recap...

LA (Mt. Wilson) reception should be easy to accomplish with one antenna provided it covers the real channels that you are interested in.

If you want to hear the audio only programming from real CH-6, then use the HD1800. If the programing on real CH-6 is of no interest to you, and you want to use an antenna that is not so wide at the rear, then I'd go with the HBU-44.

Reception of the Santa Barbara signals may require a separate antenna, but the LA antenna can be used to test...
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