Your help/input is Greatly Appreciated!

[rwilson1206]

Ive tried adding a splitter before, and I lost channels: If I add a splitter to my system, 4-way, then could I put a pre-amp near the MANT? It would still have the inline 18db amp as it enters the basement. I right now I am using the original 2 bay UHF at the top of the tower pointing toward youngstown to service my other two tvs. But since my MANT is picking up 47 channels, and maybe more once I add the dipole vhf to the mix, I suppose I would like to abandon the existing 2 bay altogether and hook up a 4 way splitter to the MANT. Keep in mind I would have the USVJ as well, both providing signal loss. I know you said in the past dont add a preamp to the system, but is there anything I can do if I add a 4 way splitter to the system? Also, what kind of seperation should be between the dipole vhf and the MANT?

One other thing, can you suggest a converter box for me, the Zenith DTT901 is cnet's best user rated box.

I am hoping to buy the USVJ, additional coax, 4 way splitter, dipole vhf, converter box and anything else I need soon from probably solidsignal.

A 4 way splitter has up to 11dB signal loss, I am primarily concerned with good signal for main tv, other 3 come secondary, although it would be ideal to have the same quality signal to all 4 tvs.

The MANT comes with the 18dB amp, but when I add the splitter it looses channels, and if I remove the amp entirely, the antenna doesnt work. So it has to have the amp, I added another 18db amp to the line once (antenna > MANT amp > splitter > 18dB amp) and I got no signal. The 18db has to be hooked up inside, because it plugs into the wall.

would I want MANT-Dipole antenna > 18db MANT > USVJ > 4 way splitter? I dont think that will work, I'm afraid the 4 way splitter will cause me to loose channels, and I dont know where I can add another preamp into the system, if I even need one...

Actually, I may be confused, I bought amps, Not preamps, but the way they are explained they almost seem like they are the same thing. I had two amps in the same line once, and it didnt work, but what about an preamp & amp in the same line? I'm afraid if I buy the preamp It wont work with the MANT, then im out 30 bucks. I may be looking at it wrong though, I know you said not to add a preamp, so maybe there is nothing I can do about the signal loss from the 4 way splitter. Maybe my secondary UHF is the way to go for the other tvs.

Another thing, I dont think I can use the USVJ to combine the MANT and the dipole until it enters the house, does the 18db MANT amp have to be hooked up before the line enters the USVJ, or can it be added after the USVJ combines the two?

thanks again

[Dave Loudin]

Quick hitters:
1) Not surprised you lose channels with a splitter - Your net noise margin on those is near zero

2) Keep the 18dB amplifier with the MANT.

3) Use the USVJ as close as practical to the antennas.

4) If you want to split, consider something like a CM-3414 distribution amplifier.

So, you have parallel paths from the dipole and from the MANT plus its amp to the USVJ, then a single cable to the distribution amp, then to the TVs.

5) Yes, you would be abandoning the old UHF antenna this way.

6) I have no recommendations based on experience for ATSC receivers (converter boxes).

[rwilson1206]

Dave,

Ordered the distribution amp and more coax and usvj.

I read tigerbangs post about grounding and he, and you (kinda) make it sound like getting a diff. antenna (Antennacraft BU-33), will be like an out of this world difference to what I have now. I get a little breakup occasionally still from a couple channels, its a little annoying, not super annoying. Will I pick up even more channels with the antennacraft? I was thinking about buying that alone, and seeing how it works, and combine with a uhf antenna for youngstown later (if necessary). I wouldnt buy a preamp either, I would test it with just the antenna first (unless you strongly suggest a preamp). His nascar joke makes it sound like I'm really missing out on what could be. Can I side mount the BU-33 on one of the legs of the tower, as opposed to mounting to the mast?

Actually Dave, I want to do this right. And give my wife peace of mind that she can invite people over to watch a show and not have breakup. Can you verify that everything you recommended in the beginning I should still buy. Or just tell me what to buy one more time. At this stage I wasted my money on the MANT940, a philips amplifier, and time. Thats about it. I would like to piece meal things, and slowly upgrade my system, but that may end up costing more shipping in the long run. I may just order it all at once. I am going to have one of the guys at work do a tower analysis on the tower to make sure it can hold me. Its a little tricky getting up to the mast, especially installing the BU-33. An 80" boom length, not sure how much it weighs, I would pretty much be installing it one handed. Thats why I asked if it can be installed on one of the legs of the tower. I have the coax, distribution amp (to hook it up to 4 tvs) and the usvj.

Also, could I just get one antenna and point the MANT toward youngstown? I think before you said I cant do that...

Thanks

Thanks again...

[Dave Loudin]

You cannot combine the MANT with another UHF antenna - you cannot guarantee that the signals received by each will add in phase. My idea of combining a VHF antenna with the MANT depended on getting acceptable UHF performance with what you have. If you are not happy with the occasional dropouts, then you need to go with the 4221/HBU-33 combination.

The benefits of going with more directional antennas:

1) eliminating virtually all dropouts
2) picking up a few Pittsburgh stations

The disadvantage is cost.

Now, if you want to go with the HBU-33 for Cleveland and the CM4221 for Youngstown/Pittsburgh, you should actually be able to combine the two without much penalty. Why? The antenna pointed to Cleveland will have very little, if any, sensitivity towards Youngstown and the antenna pointed towards Youngstown will have little, if any, sensitivity to Cleveland. Therefore, as an interim step:

replace the MANT with the 4221, aim your old UHF antenna at Cleveland, combine the two with a splitter/joiner (NOT the USVJ, sorry), and feed the distribution amp. You will lose the Cleveland VHF this way.

You need to go back and reread my posts. I've tried to give you complete answers each time, and all the information in this post can be found in previous ones. Good luck!

[Tigerbangs]

I think that the message from David here is that neither he nor I is fond of the MANT 940, especially for VHF use. Since you have that terrific tower attached to your house, we'd love to see you take advantage of what it can do for you. David is definitely on the right track with his advice...and the altitude that the tower will give you is a terrific advantage that we'd hate to see you waste!

[rwilson1206]

well I bought the bmu33 and the cm4221 and a 5-1000mhz signal combiner...

1 x AntennaCraft HBU33 High Band VHF UHF Fringe HD Antenna Digital Ready Outdoor 33 Element Off-Air Local HD High Definition Digital Signal Television Aerial, RED ZONE, Part # HBU-33 | With 50' FT Coax Cable (ANTU33) = $38.80
1 x Channel Master 4221-HD UHF 4 Bay HD TV Terrestrial Antenna ULTRAtenna Digital Bowtie DB4 HDTV CM-4221-HD Four Bay Outdoor Roof Top Off-Air Local Signal Digital Aerial, LIGHT GREEN ZONE, Part # CM4221-HD | With 50' FT Coax Cable (AN4221) = $29.95
1 x Pro Brand P-1000 2AP GX PBI 2 Way Splitter 5 - 1000 MHz All Port DC Passing P1000 Video Coax Cable High Performance Signal Combiner, Commercial Grade, Part # P1000-2AP-GX (SPL2PC) = $0.89

Hope I got it right, they didnt come with mounts, hope I can get them at a hardware store or something. It comes with 50 coax for each, so can i just run the separate strands into the basement and combine them there, then feed them to the distribution amplifier? I didnt buy any pre amps. should I have? Maybe I wont need them?

Can I mount the 4221 at the very top of the mast, and the hbu33 at the bottom of the mast? If I cant get to the top of the mast, can I mount the hbu33 a the bottom of the mast and side mount the 4221 on the tower below it. What should I use for seperation distance?

Thanks Again.

[Dave Loudin]

Originally Posted by Tigerbangs

I think that the message from David here is that neither he nor I is fond of the MANT 940, especially for VHF use. Since you have that terrific tower attached to your house, we'd love to see you take advantage of what it can do for you. David is definitely on the right track with his advice...and the altitude that the tower will give you is a terrific advantage that we'd hate to see you waste!

The only redeeming quality of the MANT 940 in this case was its near-omnidirectionality. With Cleveland and Youngstown at 90 degrees from each other at his location, even the most broad-beamed antenna will have a null towards one city while pointed at the other. It seemed that rwilson had just enough RF in the air to get acceptable reception via the MANT, so he had a shot at adding a simple VHF antenna to get what he wanted at minimum cost. However, I think we found that he did not have enough net noise margin to protect against random fades, interference, and the like.

[rwilson1206]

I recieved my antennas in the mail yesterday and will be installing them this weekend. A couple of questions....

I have plenty of coax, with that having been said, they each came with 50' quad sheilded rg6. Can I run seperate leads into the basement and combine them there? Or should I combine them at the top of the tower. I would like to combine them in the basement to have access to the combiner and it seems easier. Could I put the grounding block after they are combined or would I need two grounding blocks before they go into the house? Will two leads of coax going down the tower interfere with each other? Should they have standoffs or can I zip tie them to the tower leg?

Also, my mast is about 4' tall. What should the seperation distance be between the HBU33 and CM4221? The previous install had a UHF 2 bay at the top of the mast and an antenna simliar to the HBU33 at the bottom of the mast. I could install the HBU33 somewhere on the mast, come down so many feet and side mount the CM4221 on the tower. Which would be fine with me because that may be safer. By the way, my tower is 30' to bottom of mast, not 40'.

If I install both antenna on the mast my plan was to try and take down the mast that is installed now and install both new antennas on the mast on the ground, then some how climb up the tower with the mast and new antennas and install it that way. I want to spend as little time possible at the top of the tower, as Ive said before its rusty in spots and im not 100% comfortable at the top of it for long periods, moving around installing antennas, etc.

Lastly, the distribution amp I have hopefully will be good enough in my case and I will not need any other amps? Is it correct to say that seperate pre-amps for each antenna are more powerful than the distribution amp I have? That was another reason I wanted the combiner in the house and not at the tower, in the future, could I add preamps and install them in the basement, before the antennas combine, and also have the distribution amp later in the line?

Thanks Again...

[rwilson1206]

Tigerbangs or Dave, can you advise on the post above?

Thanks

[Tigerbangs]

I came into this antenna discussion a bit late, but after looking at your TVFool.com report, you have much weaker signals coming from Cleveland than you do from Youngstown. My first reaction is that you need to get the HBU-33 up at the top of the mast, clear of the tower. A 4221 can be side-mounted from a tower much more easily than a HBU-33 can be. As for safe minimum separation, I would say that the two antennas should be at least 4' apart vertically on the mast, however, it makes more sense to combine the signals from the two antennas as close to the antennas as you can and run one cable down the tower rather than run two cables. While you don't need a preamp for the Youngstown stations, I am a bit concerned that the HBU-33 aimed at Cleveland may need a bit of a boost becasue of the lower signal strengths and long cable leads. The issue is that it's such a pain to get up and down the tower that you need to make the decision BEFORE the equipment is installed.

If this was MY installation, I would most likely forgo the distribution amp and use a high-input preamplifier like a Winegard HDP-269 and a passive splitter instead because the preamp will overcome the insertion, cable and splitting losses earlier in the system.
Just my opinion....

Two runs of coax won't interfere with one another, so there is no concern there: i use wire-ties to secure the cable to the tower.

[rwilson1206]

One of the reasons I wanted to have two leads coming down, and connecting them in the basement is if I ever needed to change out the combiner or add preamps, protecting them from weather as well.

I got cold feet about climbing to the top of the tower, so Im having someone else do it. It will cost around 100, maybe less. So I only have one shot to get this right.

Luckily the distribution amp I ordered is on backorder, so I could cancel it and get the winegaurd preamp instead. But I do want to split my signal 4 ways. Before, when I added a four way splitter, I lost channels. Can I have a wineguard preamp and the distribution amp in the same setup? is it necessary?

I'm pretty certain if I added a 4 way splitter to the CM4221, I would lose channels (if I didnt have some type of amplification)

That having been said do I need to buy two preamps, and just use a normal splitter, and dont buy the distribution amp? Like I said, I only have one shot at this if the amps need to be installed at the antennas. What I can do is combine the antennas midway down the tower, to a spot I feel comfortable climbing to if I ever had to.

So there would be two leads each with its own preamp combining into one lead? Could I amplify the signal with one preamp only after they are combined? Also, how long are the power cords for the preamps? Wondering about how powering them will work when they are all the way at the top of the tower.

So, I will have short leads going from the antennas to the pre amps and then short leads going from the preamps to the combiner, then one long lead to the splitter. I thought about ordering custom lengths for the short leads from solid signal, because my crimping skills are not the best. Or can I use older, rg59-rg6 cable that was leftover from cable company, and use them for the short leads, they are already professionally crimped and the lengths are the same. (do they have to be EXACTLY the same?). So the options are, order from solid signal, use leftover, or do the best job I can crimping myself.

Take a look at this quote from a person at solid signal... I was telling her that I may want to replace my distribution amp I ordered with a couple HDP-269's and a four way splitter instead. This is what she said....

"HDP-269 are preamplifiers they will not work like that how you intend it to.
Take a look at the HDA-200 or HAD-100 either one should work with a 4 way splitter"

Thanks for all your help guys, I'm almost there. One other thing, how important is a good crimp, I can get it pretty decent, with some RCA crimpers I bought, I didnt want to pay 50 bucks for professional crimp tool. Ive got enough money invested in this already. But I want to do it as right as I can...

[Tigerbangs]

I am not a fan of using a preamp AND a distribution amp together except in the situation of having VERY weak signals. I don't think that you will need it, first of all, and secondly, if you choose to connect the two antennas on the antenna mast and come in with one down lead that you would be better off using a preamp, which is designed to live out in the foul weather. My personal experience is that it is better to amplify weak signals as early in the reception chain as is possible as long as you don't overload the preamp with too many strong signals. The beauty of the HDP-269 is that it can tolerate very strong signal inputs without overloading, and yet will provide amplification early in the reception chain so that your weak signals won't get buried in the cable and splitters.

[rwilson1206]

Well Ive ordered a HDP-269, a 4 way splitter and a Winegard CC 7870 2-Way TV Antenna Joiner Coupler. I originally bought a 5-1000mhz splitter/combiner, but people at solid signal told me to by this (CC 7870). I hope I did the right thing, did I?

One other question, Tigerbangs, I know you kinda said to put the preamp after the signals are combined. The preamp averages 12db gain, and the coupler has a 3.5db loss. Does that mean having one preamp, each antenna gets 6db, minus 3.5db (coupler), minus 7.5 db (4-way splitter)? Plus my coax runs. I hope (but if not I will buy another) one pre amp will be enough and put it after the antennas are combined, close to the antennas. Put I know in the past Dave may have suggested two preamps, one for each antenna. Since right now I have one preamp, I'm not making up for the 3.5db loss of the coupler, since I have to put the preamp after the coupler?
So is one preamp ok? Or do I need two? Or should I put the preamp before the coupler for the HBU33? I would play around with this if it was easily accessible, but as you know, it wont be.

I have about ten feet of coax ready for each antenna, then I combine them, and run 1' of coax to the preamp. I made 10' runs because It will allow me to access the preamp, and coupler if I ever have to, and puts them at a safe, accessible height on the tower, but not the safest where I would want to be climbing it all the time.

One other thing, could I utilize my phillips 18db signal amplifier anywhere in my system? I bought it awhile ago, and I'd hate to have it go to waste. My MANT 940 is going to waste, so Id hate to be out $60 bucks total on top of what I've recently bought.

Last thing... How crucial is it to get the coax insulation close to the very end of the f connector? I can get it pretty close most of the time, but not always (1/8" off sometimes). I have a professional crimper, so thats good, but I use channel locks to push the f connector onto the end of the coax, and the end of the coax doesnt always go flush with the end of the f connector (I think you know what I'm trying to explain). Will this cause significant signal loss? Hope not...

Thanks for everything, my annoyingness will cease soon, next week the antennas are getting put up...trying to get everything set up exactly how it should be.

[Tigerbangs]

A coupler really doesn't have 3.5 dB loss: usially they have insertion loss of less than 1 dB, but my concern about using a CA 7870 has to do with the filtering of it's inputs: I am concerned that, if you use it, you will attenuate the UHF signals coming from the antenna that will be aimed at Cleveland. I am also concerned about joining two antennas using a splitter-combiner because of the potential to suck-out some channel, but I would start by using the splitter first, rather than the CA 7870. As for your coax connectors, if you are only an eighth of an inch off, chances are good that you'll be fine.

I usually won't use quad-shield cable for TV reception because it has slightly higher signal loss than conventional dual and tri-shield RG-6u, but there is certainly nothing wrong with it, other than the fact that it is hard to work with, and conventional crimpers often won't work with it.

I think that you are overly concerned about amplification: you only need enough amplification to cover your insertion, line and splitting losses; anything more than that is superfluous. In this case, more is certainly NOT better, and too much amplification can have other consequences that are less than desirable Do NOT try to use the amplifier from the MANT 940 in the system: you don't NEED it, and it will do more HARM than good.

[rwilson1206]

Tigerbangs FYI,

I emailed this guy to make sure he didnt lead me the wrong way with the CC7870. This is what he said...


The CC7870 is basically a splitter in a weatherproof box. And I have no evidence that it is anymore efficient than a splitter. I think the type of combiner he was warning about is this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ This one DOES attenuate the UHF on one side and VHF on the other. Because antennas interfere with each other this helps if you have separate VHF and UHF antennas.

Only the UHF /VHF Combiners have the .05 insertion. Our 7870 has 3.5 db loss, same as a two way splitter.

Mike
Solid Signal

[Tigerbangs]

My mistake on that one: it's the CC-8800 that filters inputs, NOT the CC-7870: I should definitely do something about my mental dyslexia, or at least re-read the 'accessories' page on the Winegard website.

[rwilson1206]

Well I installed my new antenna setup over the weekend. HBU33 pointed approx. 330 degrees and the CM 4221 pointed 70-80 degrees. Each antenna has 10' leads going to the coupler (3.5db loss). Then the combined lead goes into the HDP269. From there I go down approx. 30' into the basement to a 4 Way splitter (7.5db loss).

I am pleased with the results. I didnt pick up any additional channels. In fact I lost WVIZ 25.1 (virt) and WUAB 43.1 (virt). Both channels are around the 330 degree mark, I wonder why they dont come in?

However, I rotated the CM4221 so that its 90 degrees off the HBU33 (Youngstown & Cleveland signals are over 90 degrees apart) and 43.1 starts to come in, and I've gotten reception from it thus far. Athough I get a little digital breakup from it. I'm thinking of rotating it the slightest bit closer towards cleveland, without losing 33.1 (virt), which comes in solid now. CBS 10 (real) came in great (got a lot of breakup previously), but just tonight, it has a little breakup. ABC 5.1 (virt) comes in solid now as well.

So my main concerns are:
1. why isnt WUAB 43.1 (342 virt) coming in good (although I will try and tweak it soon...
2. I have lost PBS 25.1 (345 virt), why is that?
3. And now Im getting a little bit of breakup from CBS 10 (real), (345 virt), but something like NBC 3.1 (345 virt) comes in perfect?

I never understood what my compass is in (real or virt) and which degrees should I use per the tv signal results from tvfool.com? You would think with the nice antenna I bought, you wouldnt have to be that precise...

But I am able to add in a 4 way splitter and all other stations come in great. So overall I am happy with what I did. Although I have to say, the MANT940 is a great antenna for anyone looking to go the cheap route.

Are you able to provide any input on my main concerns?

Thanks

Rob

[Tower Guy]

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

Are you able to provide any input on my main concerns?

Rob

Coupling two antennas with a splitter allows reflections to enter and at the same time adds 3.5 db loss.

You are better off with an A/B switch.

[Dave Loudin]

Originally Posted by Tower Guy

Coupling two antennas with a splitter allows reflections to enter and at the same time adds 3.5 db loss.

You are better off with an A/B switch.

Generally a true statement. However, in this case, the two markets we're looking at are virtually 90 degress apart, so very little signal from one should be getting into the other. Rwilson, you have the right idea about the 90 degree business - looks like the 4221 aimed towards Youngstown is picking up some of Cleveland. You're having issues with RF channels 26 and 28, so the next best thing to try is aiming the 4221 90 degrees from them, which would be 74 degrees by the compass, only 2 degrees from pointing directly at WYTV. If that doesn't work, then change the spacing between the two antennas. Antenna combining issues are, in part, a function of frequency. Your problem channels are pretty close in frequency.

[Tower Guy]

Originally Posted by Dave Loudin

However, in this case, the two markets we're looking at are virtually 90 degress apart, so very little signal from one should be getting into the other.

The 90 degree separation does prevent interaction of the antenna patterns. All that means is that the line lengths to the combiner can be random. However, any structure located 90 degrees away will cause multipath. Most adaptive equalizers need a bit more signal to decode the 8 VSB signal when there is multipath.

The suggestion of an A/B switch is intended to reduce multipath and eliminate the loss of the combiner