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Old 10-Sep-2014, 4:13 PM   #1
midalake
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Have recommendation does seem correct?

Hi All Should say recommendation does NOT seem correct.......

I have a recommendation to run two antennas from a “local expert” I hope to explain
.
What I have: A 50’ tower with an unknown antenna maker. It is the “classic style with about 15 front elements a reflector and 9 wider rear elements.
I also have a winegard 30db amp.

The stations I get are: [in order of strongest to weakest] 13-6-10-3-19 STATIONS 19 & 3 are intermittent.

The antenna points to the bulk of stations 13-6-10-19 Channel 3 is a different direction
.
MY GOAL is to try to get ALL of the stations WITHOUT A ROTOR.

I need to get an Antenna that will receive channel 19 better with my main channels of 6-10-13-19 and an antenna to get channel 3 in the different direction.

The reccommdation is to run a HD 9032 and a y-710-13 BUT IT SEEMS that these would not get all the stations I would want

Current antenna Sorry the picture is too big do not know how to shrink


QUESTIONS:
1 Are the antennas recommended the correct ones?
2. Is there a heavy duty mount pole I may be able to get a little extra height?
3. What would be a good set-up?

My Tv report : http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d243d2f4a77f7d

Thanks Dave

Last edited by midalake; 10-Sep-2014 at 4:34 PM.
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Old 11-Sep-2014, 3:58 PM   #2
midalake
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Just to add to my post, hopefully someone can help?

The one antenna recommended is Winegard PR 9032 UHF Prostar 1000 TV Antenna (PR9032) it says for channels 14-69

The other recommended Y-10713 Antenna Craft it says it is rated for channels 7-13

So with these two antennas how do I pick-up my Channel 6? and my channel 3 which is off on its own?

Thanks Dave
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Old 11-Sep-2014, 4:30 PM   #3
Ben Myers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midalake View Post
Just to add to my post, hopefully someone can help?

The one antenna recommended is Winegard PR 9032 UHF Prostar 1000 TV Antenna (PR9032) it says for channels 14-69

The other recommended Y-10713 Antenna Craft it says it is rated for channels 7-13

So with these two antennas how do I pick-up my Channel 6? and my channel 3 which is off on its own?

Thanks Dave
WLUC and WJMN are both UHF. The TV Fool report has a "real" column with the actual channel in use by the station.
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Old 11-Sep-2014, 8:04 PM   #4
tomfoolery
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Before digital, the analog broadcasts were mostly on the two VHF bands, low-vhf channels 2-6, and high-vhf channels 7-13. UHF was 14-83, eventually chopped back in steps to 14-51. When digital tv transmissions started, stations continued broadcasting analog on their existing channel, and they added digital broadcasts mostly on UHF channels, but the screen displayed the same channel number they've always used (with the added decimal, like 3.1, 3.2, etc.), now referred to as a 'virtual channel'.

Once the analog transmissions were permanently stopped, many stations moved their digital transmission to the channel they had always used for analog, but many (most, really) stayed on the UHF channel, with the virtual channel number remaining where it always was, with the addition of extra channels (like 3.2, 3.3, etc.) all multiplexed onto the same signal. This also allowed them to keep the same identity, like "News 3 at 11:00", and stuff like that. A few are using low-VHF, but not many, like WBKP on Real 5 in the gray in your report.

But your antenna receives the actual broadcast frequencies/wavelengths (the "Real Channel" in the TVF report), regardless of what channel the television and station identify themselves as (the "Virtual Channel" in the TVF report). So you need an antenna or antennas that receive the broadcast "Real" channels, which in your case are all high-VHF and UHF. Channel 3.1 WJMN (CBS affiliate) is broadcast on real channel 48, so it requires a UHF antenna with enough gain to bring it in cleanly. With a low NM value and 2-edge condition, it's going to take a big antenna, like the 91XG or DB8e, but given the wide angle between it and the other group at around 29 deg. magnetic, the DB8e with the panels aimed apart a bit may be the best bet. That would require a dedicated h-VHF antenna to get real 8, 10, and 13, and I would aim it at 29 magnetic, hoping to get 8 off the back, since it's the strongest.

Combine them with a UVSJ.
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Old 12-Sep-2014, 4:55 AM   #5
midalake
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OK Had to read everything a few times. So one antenna for 3-6-19 and another for 10 and 13. Channel 8 is reserved and not broadcasting.

Even though large, my current antenna would bring in 10 & 13 [I get those now]

So the question is how do I get the two different locations with 6 &19 in one direction and 3 in a different direction.

I am guessing that the antenna he recommend [ Winegard PR 9032] is not high on the list of the experts here.

So my question is can I get my station 3 off the side of the 91XG?

A question on the DB8e If you start to spread the antenna does it loose performance?

Also what is a UVSJ?

Also would the antenna I have currently compete with the other UHF antenna too much...Thus meaning I should go with the Y-10713 Antenna Craft.

Thanks Mucho....... Dave
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Old 14-Sep-2014, 7:05 PM   #6
midalake
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Bumping up for more help! One more question added to above, if I use a UVSJ where does this go in conjunction with my amp.

I appreciate the help I need to get antennas on the way this week!

Thanks Dave
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Old 14-Sep-2014, 8:32 PM   #7
timgr
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https://www.google.com/search?q=UVSJ+antenna+amplifier

Guessing it's UHF-VHF summing junction - obvious, eh?

A common recommendation here is the RCA preamp http://www.amazon.com/RCA-TVPRAMP1R-.../dp/B003P92D9Y ... the passive junction is lossy, ie it will cause some signal amplitude loss. If you have signal to burn, then that does not matter.

When both DB8e panels are pointed in the same direction, the antenna is maximally directional and also has maximum gain. When you spread the panels, you lose some gain on any one axis, but the directionality also becomes less. Whether the integral gain (the sum of gain across all possible directions, sort of a gain-direction product, if there is such a thing) is any less, I do not know.

Shoot, I wish you'd use the real channel numbers or the call signs or ideally both, rather than the old NTSC numbers, if that's what you think you are using. It would make following your questions easier.

Last edited by timgr; 14-Sep-2014 at 8:43 PM.
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Old 14-Sep-2014, 9:25 PM   #8
midalake
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My Groupings are actual 10-13-19-35 in one location.

And channel 48 about 29 degrees magnetic off the other group!

Dave
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Old 14-Sep-2014, 9:44 PM   #9
timgr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midalake View Post
My Groupings are actual 10-13-19-35 in one location.

And channel 48 about 29 degrees magnetic off the other group!

Dave
You could try aiming the two panels of a DB8e at 29 and 78 degrees to get 35, 48 and maybe 19. Then use a Y10713 aimed at 29 to get 10 and 13 and I'd expect to get 8 too, even though it's off target. But don't take my word as advice - I'm just an interested bystander.

It's also possible to combine multiple antennas using multiple tuners. Or you could use a rotator.

The narrower the bandwidth of the antenna, the higher the Q should be and the more gain I would expect for a given size and complexity. Supposedly the DB8e has an advantage over older designs for UHF because it was designed after the FCC clipped channels 51-69 from the commercial TV spectrum.

Last edited by timgr; 14-Sep-2014 at 9:48 PM.
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Old 15-Sep-2014, 1:34 PM   #10
tomfoolery
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WDHS real 8 isn't broadcasting presently, according to RabbitEars.info, and broadcasts very infrequently in order to keep their FCC license, according to wikipedia.org, so if it were me, I wouldn't worry about it. But if it ever does goes online for real, the signal is strong enough that it may be receivable off the back corner of the Y10713. It is/was broadcasting religious programming.

But I agree that using a preamp with separate UHF and VHF inputs should avoid the insertion losses associated with a UVSJ, small though they may be (.5dB is commonly claimed). But if you already have a single input amp, then a UVSJ is cheap enough to buy and try (even Radio Shack stocks them in their stores - don't confuse it with a common 2-way splitter), and you can return it if it's not going to work (cat. #15-2586). You can get them much cheaper elsewhere, but shipping and return policy may make the local store option more attractive. Put the UVSJ before the amplifier.

But I would try each antenna on its own, with the spread of the DB8e panels adjusted for max signal strength and quality across the channels of interest, as well as height and location on the building, then the Y10713, with no amplifier (take it and the power inserter out of the line) and a new RG6 cable (as short as you can use for testing purposes), then combine them and see if they still work well enough with the amplifier you have.
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Old 15-Sep-2014, 1:51 PM   #11
midalake
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Hi tomfoolery

I live remote where stores are not present to buy. I need to order. So can you just explain a little more what I need?

Is an amp and Pre-amp the same thing?

I have a winegard amp now, I tried to get a model off the power plug in the basement but did not seem to be printed on it. Also the outside box is way up the tower I cannot access until I tip the tower down. I know it is a 30db gain?

Would this have the two outlets on it I need?

I am not able to climb the tower, so testing for me might be a little limited. I want to try to get it on the first shot.

When hooking up two antennas do the cables need to be the same length going to the UVSJ or the amp/pre-amp?

Thanks Dave

Last edited by midalake; 15-Sep-2014 at 1:55 PM.
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Old 15-Sep-2014, 2:44 PM   #12
tomfoolery
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I didn't know Winegard made a 30dB amp. I know Channel Master does (CM7777), but it doesn't have individual inputs for UHF and VHF. The leads into a UVSJ or dual-input amp don't have to be the same length.

The 'preamp' I was referring to is what you have on the mast, under the antenna, existing only to push the signal down a long run of coax and through splitters.

30dB is pretty stiff for a preamp. Hopefully it doesn't overload on the stronger signals. That sort of thing is why folks usually recommend testing with no amplifier and a short RG6 coax straight to one tv (even through a window, or put the tv outside on an extension cord) to get a real baseline, and go from there. If that's not feasible, then there's really nothing wrong with combining the two antennas into the amp, aimed as best you can using a real compass (cel phone compasses can give a different answer each time you use it, sometimes off by a lot), and trying it. If it works to your satisfaction, then great. It's a bit of a crap shoot, though, especially with weaker 1-edge and 2-edge signals.

There are lots of sources for UVSJ units, like Solid Signal, Radio Shack, Antennas Direct (a nice outdoor unit to mount to the mast https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...Combiners.html), and others. Make sure it's actually a VHF-UHF combiner, not just a 2-way splitter. The mast mounted types are actually made for the weather, and the indoor types would have to be sealed up against weather, so in your case, I'd probably do the outdoor type and still seal up the F-connectors.

And for a little more money, an amp with separate VHF and UHF inputs (with a built-in FM filter) would be simpler, with fewer connections out in the weather.
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Old 15-Sep-2014, 2:54 PM   #13
midalake
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With no amp on-line the only station I get is Channel 13. So I am thinking it is something needed. I will give a new set-up a try and see how it works .

Do you know who makes Amp's with both VHF and UHF?

Thanks Dave

Last edited by midalake; 15-Sep-2014 at 2:57 PM.
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Old 15-Sep-2014, 3:37 PM   #14
tomfoolery
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Disconnecting the power inserter or pulling the plug on it will turn the preamp on the mast into a giant attenuator, blocking most of the signal trying to get through. Removing the amp and inserter completely is the only way to test reception without the aid (or hindrance) of the amplifier, but I realize that's inconvenient (or worse) in your case. But it's something to consider.

The RCA TVPRAMP1R has separate VHF and UHF inputs, plus an FM trap (switchable), a relatively low noise floor, and gain in the high teens for VHF and low 20's for UHF, I believe. If you use that one, make sure you check the dip switches for proper setting - don't rely on the factory settings, as lately they've been shipped with the switches opposite to what the manual says they are (from what I've read). You want the inputs to be separate, and the FM filter to be on.

It's only a couple of bucks more than the outdoor UVSJ, in fact, at least at Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/RCA-TVPRAMP1R-...f+preamplifier

Just remember - the amp is only for pushing the signal down long runs of coax and through splitters. The antenna(s) need to collect the signal, strong and clean enough for good reception, on their own, which is why you need high gain/directional antennas where you are, and an amplifier so you don't lose what little they can get on the (presumably long) way down the coax to the receiver(s).

Last edited by tomfoolery; 15-Sep-2014 at 3:44 PM.
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Old 29-Sep-2014, 12:44 PM   #15
midalake
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Hi to all that helped! I got the Db8e and the Y 10713 up this weekend. The Tower install was a pain. It turned out the tower would not accept the 1 1/4 top rail fence pipe. So I had to hog out about 1/8 of an inch. The reception is working PERCFECT. I am getting all the target stations I wanted and getting a few more coming in and out.

Dave
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