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Old 2-Aug-2014, 7:54 PM   #1
sd121
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Can't see the Forest from the trees

Thank you one and all for the help you give. It's a great service.

I am new to this technical area and would appreciate any help that I can get answering following two questions.

I am in a forested area (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c64db921d1fb or http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c65eb4d1087c). Before the digital change with a roof mounted antenna I was able to get a few OTA stations. To accommodate the change to digital I need to update things which I am willing to do if I can use OTA broadcasting. My concern is if being basically in a forest (trees are 50 to 100+ feet high) with the digital sensitivity to line of sight will prevent me from being able to get any reception (roof mount antenna is assumed). I do have an oscilloscope if there is any way to use it for measuring the signal strength.

The second question, if the signal strength should be ok, what would be a good hardware set-up to use.

Thanks again for filling the information void in this area.

Last edited by sd121; 3-Aug-2014 at 12:11 AM. Reason: added 2nd signal report
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 12:02 AM   #2
teleview
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The reception signal strengths of many of the Tv Stations are Strong to Moderate Signal Strengths.

And are LOS=Line Of Sight.

Most of the Tv stations are fairly close at about 50 miles.

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As a Test of reception.

install a ,

http://www.antennacraft.net.

HD850 antenna.

Above the Peak of the Roof.

Aimed at about 240 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antennas , do not trust a , cell phone , tablet and etc. compass.

As always , the antenna aim direction and antenna location can be adjusted for best reception.

Most Digital Tv's have a Signal Strength Meter and some Digital Tv's also have a Signal Quality Meter.

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Reception can be Tested Without and With a ,

http://www.antennacraft.net.

10G201 preamplifier.

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As a Test of Reception Connect a New Continues Length of Coax to the antenna and run the New Continues Length of Coax through a open door or window direct to 1 Tv.

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Here are some and not all above the roof antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com909911.html. The , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/712.html. The ronard(712-50-10) , 10 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html. Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(22180 , ronard(2224) .

http://www.ronard.com.

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Home Depot has , 10 foot 6 inch length , 1 and 3/8 inch diameter , TOP RAIL chain length fence , PIPE , that makes good antenna mast/pipe , the price is low at about 12 dollars.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 12:35 PM   #3
Billiam
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Plenty of strong to fairly strong signals in your report. Few problems envisioned.

What station on your report has the weakest signal that you wish to watch? Is it in red or yellow or green? And which station is it? If we know this then we can offer some ideas for finding the right antenna or antennas.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 1:35 PM   #4
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Trees will, in my opinion and experience, wreck any possibility of accurately predicting reception, especially of UHF signals. You will get whatever you get.

The o'scope will not be useful for this project, you'd need a spectrum analyzer in order to "see" the signals of interest.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 1:38 PM   #5
Billiam
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My last home was in a similar predicament. Lots of very large oak trees within 50 to 100 feet of my home. Despite that I could still pick up UHF signals as weak as minus 16 NM from Kansas City with a pre amp and reliably at that.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 4:54 PM   #6
sd121
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Thank you for responding to my post and helping me sort this out.

If all I can get is in the green that would be ok since the majors are there (CW, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, and PBS). As I look at the azimuth in the report most of the stations are line of sight at about 240 degrees (239-241). The two odd-balls (KFTY at 263 degrees and KTNC at 228 degrees) I don’t care about.

There are a couple stations in the yellow that would be nice (like KICU on 36 and KQEH on 50). Although these have significantly higher signal strength than the red, they are far less important to me. They are also at their own azimuth (227 degrees) so I’m not sure they are worth the effort.

It would be a complete home run to get the green stations above together with some of the first half of the reds that seem to all be coming from 231 degrees such as KGO on 7, KPIX on 29, KOFY on 19, KQED on 30, KRON on 38, and KTVU on 44.

Is it possible to set the direction for 231 degrees (assuming roof mount and an amplifier) and still be able to pick-up the stronger signals at 239-241?

Out of curiosity, is the reason why most of the reds are “2Edge” instead of line of sight because of the type of transmitter they use for those signals? Just interested in trying to learn more about this stuff.

I do have the ability to go a little higher with the antenna if that is helpful. I didn’t see much of a difference in the signal report even if I went crazy with the height. And as I mentioned before there is no real way I would be able to get above the trees.

Since trees can have such an impact would different positions on the roof have more of an impact than the extra height? Please let me know if there is anything in particular I can do to limit or lessen the impact of the trees.

As a frame of reference I tried to post an image of the area showing the trees, but images don't seem to be insertable here.

Thank you so much for your help.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:01 PM   #7
Billiam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd121 View Post
Thank you for responding to my post and helping me sort this out.

If all I can get is in the green that would be ok since the majors are there (CW, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, and PBS). As I look at the azimuth in the report most of the stations are line of sight at about 240 degrees (239-241). The two odd-balls (KFTY at 263 degrees and KTNC at 228 degrees) I don’t care about.

There are a couple stations in the yellow that would be nice (like KICU on 36 and KQEH on 50). Although these have significantly higher signal strength than the red, they are far less important to me. They are also at their own azimuth (227 degrees) so I’m not sure they are worth the effort.

It would be a complete home run to get the green stations above together with some of the first half of the reds that seem to all be coming from 231 degrees such as KGO on 7, KPIX on 29, KOFY on 19, KQED on 30, KRON on 38, and KTVU on 44.

Is it possible to set the direction for 231 degrees (assuming roof mount and an amplifier) and still be able to pick-up the stronger signals at 239-241?

Out of curiosity, is the reason why most of the reds are “2Edge” instead of line of sight because of the type of transmitter they use for those signals? Just interested in trying to learn more about this stuff.

I do have the ability to go a little higher with the antenna if that is helpful. I didn’t see much of a difference in the signal report even if I went crazy with the height. And as I mentioned before there is no real way I would be able to get above the trees.

Since trees can have such an impact would different positions on the roof have more of an impact than the extra height? Please let me know if there is anything in particular I can do to limit or lessen the impact of the trees.

As a frame of reference I tried to post an image of the area showing the trees, but images don't seem to be insertable here.

Thank you so much for your help.
You're welcome. I've had this problem before as you can see.

How many feet distant are the trees from the location of the antenna's proposed site?
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:02 PM   #8
Billiam
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Do you want to watch Ch. 2 or 3?
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:10 PM   #9
sd121
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Depending on where I mount the antenna the minimum distance from the trees would be 30-50 feet. That would be strapping to a fireplace (since I've seen this before I'm assuming it's no problem to do and is the easiest). If I mount the antenna differently the distance to the trees could be as much as 100 feet. I'm assuming by the question that distance is your friend when it comes to dealing with trees? I might be able to also trim the lower branches of the nearest trees to the height of the antenna if it will have a significant impact.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:11 PM   #10
Billiam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd121 View Post
Depending on where I mount the antenna the minimum distance from the trees would be 30-50 feet. That would be strapping to a fireplace (since I've seen this before I'm assuming it's no problem to do and is the easiest). If I mount the antenna differently the distance to the trees could be as much as 100 feet. I'm assuming by the question that distance is your friend when it comes to dealing with trees? I might be able to also trim the lower branches of the nearest trees to the height of the antenna if it will have a significant impact.
Yes, more distance from the trees will help. I had to trim some branches coming onto my roof from an adjacent property and while it didn't help much with the signal quality it did reduce the chances of a limb dropping onto the antenna.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:12 PM   #11
sd121
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No, I don’t care about KFTY on 2 or KCSO on 3
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:12 PM   #12
Billiam
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Can you use a rotor or do you want a fixed antenna pointed in one direction?
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:12 PM   #13
Billiam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd121 View Post
No, I don’t care about KFTY on 2 or KCSO on 3
OK that rules out all channel antennas that include VHF low then.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:15 PM   #14
sd121
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I can use a rotor. The preference would be without a rotor just to keep it simple, but it would not be a big deal if it helps.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:16 PM   #15
Billiam
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Ch. 36 is really iffy without a preamp. And even with one it may not come in. Green and Yellow signals should be doable with a single antenna on a rotor. No preamp recommended. If you have to use a pre amp then I'd recommend the http://www.amazon.com/RCA-TVPRAMP1R-.../dp/B003P92D9Y I just bought this and it works fine in a strong signal area. Only caveat is that I don't have trees around me at my current location.

2 edge signals means the signal is bouncing off something twice after leaving the tower before it gets to your location. 1 edge is a single bounce off an object like a mountain.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:18 PM   #16
Billiam
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Good. If a rotor is doable then I think you can get virtually every signal in Green, Yellow (minus the VHF low signals) and maybe even a couple in Red.

What is your budget for the entire project?
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:18 PM   #17
sd121
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Is using a preamp a problem when you have strong signals from overpowering?
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:21 PM   #18
sd121
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If I could pull it off for a few hundred dollars compared to what a monthly bill is for TV it would be a quick return.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:25 PM   #19
Billiam
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Yes, a pre amp can create interference from strong signals nearby. In this case I would only recommend it if you have to watch KICU but that does not seem to be a requirement. If the trees were not a problem then I would think it would come in without a pre amp since I've been able to get signals that weak or weaker on UHF without a pre amp in more than one location.

Do you have someone to help you mount this on the Chimney? Straps are tricky to handle and you will need two people. May want to use four straps since the rotor and antenna will need to be secured well.
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Old 3-Aug-2014, 5:26 PM   #20
Billiam
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I am thinking that the Antennacraft HBU 44 would be ideal for this situation. A single antenna that covers Channels 7 to 51. That on a rotor should give you more than enough of the channels you want to watch.
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