Looking for the best antenna for me.

[JeremeyN]

Here is my TV Fool Report http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e746a80d9fb35

I currently have Antenna's Direct DB8 with an amp. I am currently have it pointed about 129° and I get the following channels with these signal strengths.

2.1 - 60% - 65% and some times 0%
6.1 - 60% - 63%
22.1 - 72% - 74% Strongest channel I have
28.1 - 0% - I used to get this channel
34.1 - 64% - 65% - This channel isn't even on TV Fool Report. I see it on Atennasweb.org (ION) Channel Real Channel #34 @ 128°.

I need to know what is the best antenna I can get to get These channels in better reception and I need to pick up 4.1 (ABC). I see there is one on Channel 9 (KXMN). It is in the line of site of 128°-130° area. The one listed on channel 13 is at 105° and in the wrong direction.

I live in the mountains of NE Washington about 60 miles NW of Spokane. If it helps I am about 2700'-2800' Elevation and I also have a great line of site of 130°.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jer

[John Candle]

Something is a miss here , the radar report shows only 2 receivable Tv stations. I suggest go to the >>Start MAPS<< part of tvfool , move the pointer to your location , put in your antenna height of 25 feet and make a radar report and post it back here . Do not make a new question ask post.

[ADTech]

Jer,

If you send me your GPS coordinates via a private message, I'll look at your specific circumstances.

I've found that, when using a street address to generate a radar plot, the results are sometimes either ambiguous or sometimes flat out wrong due to a failure in Google's address look-up. I've also found that using only a radar plot in mountainous terrain is usually inadequate for the toughest locations. I prefer to include details that are not available from the plot.

Keep in that the TVFool analysis, while the best tool available, is only a mathematical "best estimate". I've found it to be pretty accurate for LOS signals, but 1- and 2-edge estimates have varied by as much as 10 dB in several instances when I've actually field tested.

[JeremeyN]

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e746db2bf7b1e

Originally Posted by John Candle

Something is a miss here , the radar report shows only 2 receivable Tv stations. I suggest go to the >>Start MAPS<< part of tvfool , move the pointer to your location , put in your antenna height of 25 feet and make a radar report and post it back here . Do not make a new question ask post.

[JeremeyN]

I can post a pic of current antenna with it facing towards 129 degrees so you can see what kind of view it has... I did post a new radar map just waiting for moderator to approve.

[JeremeyN]

ADTech I sent you a PM

Originally Posted by ADTech

Jer,

If you send me your GPS coordinates via a private message, I'll look at your specific circumstances.

I've found that, when using a street address to generate a radar plot, the results are sometimes either ambiguous or sometimes flat out wrong due to a failure in Google's address look-up. I've also found that using only a radar plot in mountainous terrain is usually inadequate for the toughest locations. I prefer to include details that are not available from the plot.

Keep in that the TVFool analysis, while the best tool available, is only a mathematical "best estimate". I've found it to be pretty accurate for LOS signals, but 1- and 2-edge estimates have varied by as much as 10 dB in several instances when I've actually field tested.

[JeremeyN]

I looked up kxkm and it is not ABC it is "My TV" owned by KXLY (ABC).... So How am I going to pick up channel 4.1 KXLY if it is at 105 degress and the rest are at 130 degrees.. Will I need 2 antennas?

[ADTech]

I got your message with your coordinates.

Your location actually illustrates the last paragraph in my previous post.

For example, there's the "best" plot at 1' AGL:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e74e570576268

And a few more of varying heights:

30 ' AGL, a fairly typical suggestion: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e74122219a90a

60', the usual practical height limit for a tower: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e742b08e237fc

And the impractical heights of:

200': http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e740eb0b67e1f

and 500' (limit of TVF): http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e748a1d8926b3

Which is the most accurate? Probably none of them. You're about 2000' below the ridge line around 3-4 miles to your south-east and, it appears, just at or below the ridge line a half mile to the SE. Any reception that you get will be SEVERELY diffracted and you will find that your reception will vary tremendously based on the weather and ground conditions *up there*.

You can improve your odds of getting channels on real channels 7 & 13 by installing a 10-element high-VHF Yagi aimed midway between those two channels.

For UHF, I doubt you can improve very much more with an off-the shelf UHF antenna. There are several antennas out there with slightly higher UHF gains at the lower half of the band, but the differential is going to be very slight. If you're into experiments, Tom Ballister's site antennahacks.com gives his results of modifications he made to a DB8. I do know he's been working on similar hacks to the 91XG, but I don't recall having seen any results.

You didn't mention what amp you have, but I'd suggest the most sensitive one your budget can afford (lowest noise figure). If it's a single input pre-amp uch as our PA18 or CPA19, combine the two antennas using a Holland UVSJ for the best results. If a separate input pre-amp, set it up for the two antennas.

Bottom line: You're in a particularly challenging location!

Cheers!

PS: KXLY transmits ABC as virtual channel 4.1 and MyN as virtual channel 4.2.

[John Candle]

A high gain antenna for channels 7 thru 13 is Winegard YA 1713 antenna. Use the Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp. Aim the antenna between 105 degree magnetic compass and 130 degree magnetic compass. Signal strengths at your receive location show the strongest signals at about ground level. You will most likely find a compromise of height and finding a good reception with less or no trees the direction of the transmitters.

[John Candle]

Here is a way to receive more free Tv channels , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=265

[JeremeyN]

So I am a bit confused... Will I get a better signal by having an antenna At Ground Level??? If that is true I can do that easily as I have nothing in front of where I am as it is all downhill from where I am at. I was thinking about buying one of these 5 antennas, surely they are better than my DB8.

HD Stacker, Channel Master3671, Winegard HD7697P, Winegard HD8200U and Antennacraft HBU 55.

I currently have a PA-18 pre-amp that came with my DB8 bundle I got 3 years ago. I think if I where to get a more directional antenna with a good pre-amp I should get the channels I need. Except for Channel 7 (ABC) I guess I can get a Yagi and point towards 7 and use a combiner... Unless I am getting this all wrong?

Any Advice,

Jer

[Tower Guy]

Originally Posted by JeremeyN

So I am a bit confused... Will I get a better signal by having an antenna At Ground Level???

That's unlikely. There will be an optimum height that will defract off the ground in front of your antenna and hit the ridge.

Even then, you may get a better signal off a bounce in an odd direction than direct.

You're headed toward alot of experimentation.

[GroundUrMast]

You are shaded by a 5000' ridge about 4.5 mile SE of your location. The reception on the ridge is good. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e74ba40781676

It's also quite good on top of Huckleberry Mountain.

If you were able to obtain right of way, either location would make a fine remote receiver site. Using home theater PC hardware controlled via IP communication and point-to-point Wifi hardware to establish a high capacity wireless Ethernet link to your location, you could theoretically access a full line-up of stations in Spokane.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=1286

... I agree with TG, you're in a spot that will call for experimentation and creative thinking.

[ADTech]

I doubt that any of the five antennas you proposed would outdo the DB8 on UHF. Of them, the HBU55 would be a suitable candidate as would the step-up from the 7697 (the 7698) if you were to go with a single antenna attempt. Keep in mind that those antennas are about 12-14' in length!

In our lineup, only the 91XG is "stronger" than the DB8 on UHF, and that's on the higher end of the UHF band. On the lower end where most of your UHF stations are at, the C4 is actually a bit stronger. I'm not particularly optimistic about any of them being very successful for you location.

The PA18 is a very decent fringe/deep fringe pre-amp. I've tested its noise figure in-house using an HP8970A to be between 1.8 and 2.2 or 2.3 dB, depending on the frequency. For its price point, it is a very good pre-amp for your location.

I did not mean to imply that YOUR reception would be best at ground level, I was illustrating the limitations and vagueness of the TVFool modelling engine when faced with very severe terrain conditions. Please take a moment to carefully review my earlier remarks.

You're in what I would politely call an "extremely challenging" location for reception. As the two previous posters have remarked, you're in for a lot of experimentation and, IMHO, a lot of frustration.

[JeremeyN]

K I lowered my Antenna by 10' and readjusted and now I am getting my best results with Channel 2, 6, 22, 28, 34. All the channels, except for 22 - CW (mid 70s), I get a signal strength between 60%-67%. If I got a better Pre-amp would this increase... Or would I be better to get a more directional Antenna. I don't mind having 2 antennas in the end. Even if it means me giving up on the DB8. I figure I can can use a HBU55(pointed towards 129°) and an Antenna Craft Y10-713 (Pointed 105°) and use a combine the two signals with suggested Holland UVSJ. But What would be the best Amp to get.

To me If I can can get the current channels through through a multi-directional I would think a Directional Antenna would do better with the right amp.

So would my plan potentially work better than I have and what amp is recommended.

Thanks In Advance,
Jer

[ADTech]

Select *EITHER* a combo 7-69 antenna *OR* a combination of two antennas, one for high-VHF 7-13 and a separate UHF antenna combined with the UVSJ.

Beyond the PA18, you might look into one of the ultra-low noise amps from RC or Kitz. While I haven't done any testing of either of them and I'm not recommending them, their published specs would indicate the potential of up to a 1.5 to 2 dB dB improvement in the system noise figure.

[JeremeyN]

can i use my DB8 and combine it with a High VHF Antenna. Or do I have to get a seprate antenna that only does UHF? You also mentioned a Combination antenna 7-69. How would I get that station that's 25 degrees to the north. Do I divide the two location... I assume this works well with LOS but 1-2 edge... It would be sweet If that worked out great.

I'll research some more with those amps you mentioned.
Jer

Originally Posted by ADTech

Select *EITHER* a combo 7-69 antenna *OR* a combination of two antennas, one for high-VHF 7-13 and a separate UHF antenna combined with the UVSJ.

Beyond the PA18, you might look into one of the ultra-low noise amps from RC or Kitz. While I haven't done any testing of either of them and I'm not recommending them, their published specs would indicate the potential of up to a 1.5 to 2 dB dB improvement in the system noise figure.

[JeremeyN]

I feel stupid to ask but how much can 1-2 db help with signal? I saw the antenna hack on the DB8 and it claimed 2-3 db improvement.

[GroundUrMast]

Your question is not stupid by any means. Only in the case where you are very close to having stable and reliable reception would 1 or 2 dB make a noticeable difference.

Your TV Fool report is a guide, an estimate based on sound theory and the math behind that theory, but it is only an estimate due to the complexities of the real environment. As the terrain becomes complex, the accuracy of the estimate is reduced. http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...57#how_to_read

If your TVFR is 100% correct, then simply look at the predicted noise margin of a particular signal, try to find an antenna who's gain is sufficient to add to the NM figure so that the sum is a positive number. Amplifiers produce noise which will subtract from the net NM. The gain of an amplifier will not add to the system NM, ONLY antenna gain is able to add to the net NM of your system. Your real world results strongly suggest that the predictions shown in your TVFR are not 100% 'on-the-money' - That's to be expected given the complexities of your location.

As a rule of thumb, reliable reception will require a net NM at least +10 dB. even then signal level can fade and interfering signals can come and go. Higher net NM is desirable up to the point that it would cause overloading of an amplifier or tuner.

The DB-8 is a UHF design which can serve as a VHF antenna in some situations. The ability to receive out-of-band signals is true of virtually all antennas to some degree. Yes you can use the DB-8 with an antenna designed for VHF reception. If you combine the signal with a UVSJ, the filtering action of the UVSJ will block most of the VHF signals from the DB-8 and most of the UHF signals from the VHF antenna.