TV Fool  

Go Back   TV Fool > Over The Air Services > Help With Reception

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 28-Aug-2015, 1:05 AM   #1
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Looking to cut the cord and install an antenna

Guess that should be install a better antenna in the title.

Not sure if this is the right forum spot or not.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03c9b03c21e1

I am hoping to receive signals from both Indianapolis, IN and Louisville, KY. I want both for NFL broadcasts as my team, more often than not, is on in one of the markets if not both. That would allow me to leave DirecTV and not pay for Sunday Ticket. Just as a side, I actually like DirecTV, I don't like my monthly bill.

Currently I have an AmazonBasics antenna and the amp that came with it. http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-A...0290967&sr=1-4
It's mounted about 13-14' above the ground. Coax run to both TV's with this setup is about 75'. I have it facing SE/NW and I pick up several channels in Louisville clearly. My Tivo shows a signal strength of 55-60 on them. There is a corner of a house and some electrical lines in the path but otherwise very usable minus ION and ABC being glitchy on clear days.

I played with the signal meter and found it could recognize Indianapolis stations but the signal strength was only 15-30 with no pictures. That lead me to speculate (hope really) that with a better antenna for the distance and possibly raising it up that I might be able to get both. I'd prefer something that would allow all channels at the same time from both directions but I assume dual antenna would be required if so.

Been doing some research and was thinking maybe I could mount the antenna on the roof using an eave mount. That would add another 6 feet just to the roof plus however high the antenna is positioned about it.

Any suggestions on what would be the best solution or if this is possible?
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 1:52 PM   #2
rickbb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 331
Generally speaking higher is better, there are exceptions and sometimes you need to move the antenna around AND up and down to find that sweet spot.

I don't know anything about that antenna, but just looking at the picture, I think you can do better with a known brand and roof mounted.

Mounting the one you have on the roof and adding an extension to the mast to get it higher won't cost much and might do what you want. A newer, (better), antenna won't cost that much either.
rickbb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 2:24 PM   #3
ADTech
Antennas Direct Tech Supp
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,940
That antenna is an Amazon-exclusive version of the Mohu Sky 60. It's only difference is cosmetic (the plastic housing). I've found it, at best, to be less than mediocre once the reception conditions start to become challenging.

Please create and post a new plot using your exact location as your initial plot is flagged as not being accurate (Google could not geocode your address) . Instructions are in http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=14508
__________________
Antennas Direct Tech Support

For support and recommendations regarding our products, please contact us directly at https://www.antennasdirect.com/customer-service.html

Sorry, I'm not a mod and cannot assist with your site registration.
ADTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 2:42 PM   #4
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03e0da24271e

I hope this helps.

The AmazonBasics has worked well through spring and summer so far. Not the strongest of signals but the picture has been good. How does winter weather affect TV reception?
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 4:29 PM   #5
ADTech
Antennas Direct Tech Supp
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,940
Quote:
Not the strongest of signals but the picture has been good
With digital, all it takes is "just good enough" to have perfect or near perfect picture and sound quality. Digital cliff effect.

Quote:
How does winter weather affect TV reception?
If your summertime reception was affected by seasonal foliage, that problem goes away until spring.

If you've been receiving sporadic out of market or distant reception during the summer, that usually goes away during the winter as the atmospheric enhancement effects subside and go away.

Realistically, reliable reception of the Indy stations at over 70 miles is probably going to be somewhere between extremely challenging and "ain't going to happen" even if you do everything right as far as antenna and amp selection, mounting site selection, and are able avoid any impairments in the immediate signal path out in front of the antenna. There are a lot of variables and the outcome depends on a number of things that may not be within your control such as buildings, trees, potential mounting height, willingness to deal with a very large antenna, and so forth. It's also going to depend on which of the Indy stations are going to carry the games that are of interest to you. Of course, and ESPN/NFL Network games won't be available with an antenna.

So, do you have a very clear line of sight to Indy? If not, you can expect reception to be negatively impacted.

Can you either handle a very large, 14' long antenna, or are you more in the camp that a smaller antenna with its lesser reception is the needed compromise?
__________________
Antennas Direct Tech Support

For support and recommendations regarding our products, please contact us directly at https://www.antennasdirect.com/customer-service.html

Sorry, I'm not a mod and cannot assist with your site registration.

Last edited by ADTech; 28-Aug-2015 at 4:33 PM.
ADTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 5:07 PM   #6
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Realistically, reliable reception of the Indy stations at over 70 miles is probably going to be somewhere between extremely challenging and "ain't going to happen" even if you do everything right as far as antenna and amp selection, mounting site selection, and are able avoid any impairments in the immediate signal path out in front of the antenna. There are a lot of variables and the outcome depends on a number of things that may not be within your control such as buildings, trees, potential mounting height, willingness to deal with a very large antenna, and so forth. It's also going to depend on which of the Indy stations are going to carry the games that are of interest to you. Of course, and ESPN/NFL Network games won't be available with an antenna.

So, do you have a very clear line of sight to Indy? If not, you can expect reception to be negatively impacted.

Can you either handle a very large, 14' long antenna, or are you more in the camp that a smaller antenna with its lesser reception is the needed compromise?
Well, I had hoped for better news. I planned to compensate with Sling TV for ESPN.

To be honest, I am not sure about LOS. I have not climbed up on my roof to see. For the most part from street level there is not really any obstruction it seems that direction.

I had resigned myself to the idea that a large yagi style was going to be needed to get Indy stations. If there is a smaller antenna that has the same kind of range that would be great.

On a side note, some of my neighbors have old OTA antennas on 30-40 foot towers that have probably been there since the 70's. I'm a bit jealous.
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 6:35 PM   #7
rickbb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 331
Picking the ABC from 70 miles to show to the profile shows you down in a RF shadow. Not looking good to get that channel. Might be why your neighbors have 30 to 40 towers.

Transmitter Profile Detail

WRTV-DT (Digital)
Channel: 25 (6.1)
Network: ABC
Maximum ERP: 1000.000 kW
Coordinates: 39.899068 -86.201017

https://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/...RE-WRTV-DT.png

NOTE: The vertical dimensions in this profile have been exaggerated in order to make the terrain features more visible. This is merely an approximation based on the information available from the FCC database.
WRTV-DT
Effective ERP: 1000.000 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 72.1 miles Azimuth: 12 degrees Compass: 17 degrees
rickbb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 6:53 PM   #8
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbb View Post
Picking the ABC from 70 miles to show to the profile shows you down in a RF shadow. Not looking good to get that channel. Might be why your neighbors have 30 to 40 towers.

Transmitter Profile Detail

WRTV-DT (Digital)
Channel: 25 (6.1)
Network: ABC
Maximum ERP: 1000.000 kW
Coordinates: 39.899068 -86.201017

https://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/...RE-WRTV-DT.png

NOTE: The vertical dimensions in this profile have been exaggerated in order to make the terrain features more visible. This is merely an approximation based on the information available from the FCC database.
WRTV-DT
Effective ERP: 1000.000 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 72.1 miles Azimuth: 12 degrees Compass: 17 degrees
Sorry to be such a noob with all of this but can you expand on what you mean? And maybe how to interpret the image on the details page?
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 7:41 PM   #9
rabbit73
Retired A/V Tech
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,567
Quote:
And maybe how to interpret the image on the details page?
I'll try.

Here is the map:



If you click on a callsign in your tvfool report you will see the profile. The transmitter is at the left end and your location is at the right.



The black arc that you see at the bottom of the image is the curvature of the earth, which starts to interfere with the signal at about 70 miles.

The color code for the image is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...id=15&Itemid=1

In very rough terms, the colors can be broken down as follows (not related to Antennaweb):

- White is extremely strong. Beware of signal overload on amps.
- Red-yellow-green are all quite strong. You can expect reasonable coverage with an indoor antenna.
- Cyan is where it's advisable to move the antenna up to the second floor or attic.
- Blue is where it's probably necessary to install a good antenna on the roof.
- Purple is quite weak and you really have to work at it for any chance of reception.

Here is the coverage map for WRTV ABC. You can see that the signal is pretty weak by the time it gets to your location. The color code is the same.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg IrataTVFmap.JPG (77.5 KB, 2432 views)
File Type: jpg IrataTVFprofile.JPG (62.0 KB, 2140 views)
File Type: jpg IrataTVFcoverage.JPG (116.1 KB, 2110 views)
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 28-Aug-2015 at 8:45 PM.
rabbit73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 8:46 PM   #10
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I'll try.

Here is the map:



If you click on a callsign in your tvfool report you will see the profile. The transmitter is at the left end and your location is at the right.



The black arc that you see at the bottom of the image is the curvature of the earth, that starts to interfere with the signal at about 70 miles.

The color code for the image is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...id=15&Itemid=1

In very rough terms, the colors can be broken down as follows (not related to Antennaweb):

- White is extremely strong. Beware of signal overload on amps.
- Red-yellow-green are all quite strong. You can expect reasonable coverage with an indoor antenna.
- Cyan is where it's advisable to move the antenna up to the second floor or attic.
- Blue is where it's probably necessary to install a good antenna on the roof.
- Purple is quite weak and you really have to work at it for any chance of reception.

Here is the coverage map for WRTV ABC. You can see that the signal is pretty weak by the time it gets to your location. The color code is the same.

Thank you very much for explaining that. I missed it on the site. This looks like I'd have to install an antenna tower for my best shot and cross my fingers I could pick up the signals.
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-Aug-2015, 11:43 PM   #11
rabbit73
Retired A/V Tech
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,567
You are welcome. The fact that you were able to get some Louisville stations is promising. WHAS ABC real channel 11 from there could be received with better quality using a different antenna and a preamp. The Amazon antenna probably isn't very good for VHF-High channels 7-13. Unfortunately, ION is in a different direction.

Here is a close-up of the tvfool profile at your location that shows the colors better:



Another way to demonstrate the Indianapolis problem is to use elevation profiles:



adding the antenna heights:




but the earth isn't flat:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg IrataTVFprofileCU.JPG (16.4 KB, 2048 views)
File Type: jpg IrataTVFprofile2.JPG (127.6 KB, 2015 views)
File Type: jpg IrataTVFprofile3.JPG (115.7 KB, 2087 views)
File Type: jpg IrataTVFprofile4.JPG (119.9 KB, 2101 views)
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 29-Aug-2015 at 12:11 AM.
rabbit73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-Aug-2015, 1:06 AM   #12
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
You are welcome. The fact that you were able to get some Louisville stations is promising. WHAS ABC real channel 11 from there could be received with better quality using a different antenna and a preamp. The Amazon antenna probably isn't very good for VHF-High channels 7-13. Unfortunately, ION is in a different direction.
Thanks. This is all a little disappointing. As a kid we had OTA until I was 12 or 13. Always thought we watched Indy channels so I was hopeful I could do this. I'd hate to spend a ton of money to install a tower and get nothing in return.

Where do I find these terrain charts?

Last edited by Irata; 29-Aug-2015 at 1:11 AM.
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-Aug-2015, 1:35 AM   #13
rabbit73
Retired A/V Tech
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,567
The Indy channels were analog then. You could watch them when they were very weak if you could tolerate a little snow. With digital signals it's all or nothing because of the "Digital Cliff," as ADTech mentioned.



Quote:
Where do I find these terrain charts?
The ones in color are ready made on the tvfool report. The black and white ones I created using this web site; it takes a little time to learn how to use their software.

http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html

I don't consider Indy to be impossible, just very difficult and expensive if you are willing to settle for unreliable reception and are willing to risk failure.

If you have a friend there he could stream it to you on the internet with a Slingbox.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AnalogVSDigital2 (2).jpg (108.6 KB, 2129 views)
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 29-Aug-2015 at 1:53 AM.
rabbit73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-Aug-2015, 1:46 AM   #14
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
The Indy channels were analog then. You could watch them when they were very weak if you could tolerate a little snow. With digital signals it's all or nothing because of the "Digital Cliff."



The ones in color are ready made on the tvfool report. The black and white ones I created using this web site; it takes a little time to learn how to use their software.

http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html
Maybe I should write a nice letter to WRTV and ask them to raise their tower up a few feet for me.

I'll have to play with the site see how WXIN and WTHR look to my location.

Thank you!
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-Aug-2015, 2:52 PM   #15
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Thank you for all the work you did rabbit73. I can't consistently get ABC in Louisville and looks like even less chance out of Indy. Played around on the heywhatsthat page. I think I got it set right with the 2 stations of most importance (WXIN and WTTV) in relation to NFL games. WXIN seems to have the same possible issue as WRTV but WTTV looked to be a better possibility.

I'm going to ask the lady across the road if she uses her antenna. It looks newer (not all rusty as the two behind me across the alley) so she may actually use it.

Last edited by Irata; 29-Aug-2015 at 2:55 PM.
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-Aug-2015, 10:46 PM   #16
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Just curious, given all the data in the thread does it look like I will need a tower mounted antenna to have a chance at Indy stations? Or would I have a chance with something like a DB8e mounted on the roof? Just looking for some expert suggestions on what I would probably need.
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1-Sep-2015, 2:13 PM   #17
rickbb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 331
It would certainly be much less expensive to try a roof mount first. All you'd be out is the cost of the mount and a mast pole.
rickbb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6-Sep-2015, 2:35 AM   #18
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
This is where I had my Amazon antenna. My plan today was to move it to the top of the house:



This is what the SE facing part of the antenna perspective:



By the time we got everything in order it ended up being the afternoon. Unfortunately it was stupid hot today and the roof temp was ridiculous. So back to Lowe's for some conduit. We were able to approximate the height of the antenna on it's normal mount. (sorry bad picture) It's not done properly I know, this is completely temporary setup for testing purposes.



When we set it we put the flat sides directly N/S instead of NW/SE. I also added a preamp I found at Menards and removed the Amazon amp. This afternoon the weather was completely clear. Doing a check with the Tivo I still got all the Louisville except one AND the displayed signal strength went from 55-60 to 70 or above. I was able to add WTTV from Indy but none of the other channels came in then. They fluctuated up and down with no stable signal.

As of 10:19 tonight, WRTV, WTHR, WFYI, WNDY, WTTK, WHMB, and WXIN from Indy all coming in solid.

My plan is still to move it to the top of the but if I put the original short J pole on there will the roof affect reception from the north?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20150905_202224311.jpg (72.1 KB, 415 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20150905_094604881_HDR.jpg (115.2 KB, 410 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20150905_094639147.jpg (94.5 KB, 409 views)

Last edited by Irata; 6-Sep-2015 at 2:37 AM.
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6-Sep-2015, 2:34 PM   #19
rabbit73
Retired A/V Tech
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,567
Thanks for the photos.
Quote:
I also added a preamp I found at Menards and removed the Amazon amp.
What preamp did you get? Is it near the antenna or down at the lower end of the coax?
Quote:
Doing a check with the Tivo I still got all the Louisville except one AND the displayed signal strength went from 55-60 to 70 or above.
As of 10:19 tonight, WRTV, WTHR, WFYI, WNDY, WTTK, WHMB, and WXIN from Indy all coming in solid.
That sounds like a big improvement to me.
Quote:
My plan is still to move it to the top of the but if I put the original short J pole on there will the roof affect reception from the north?
I'm not sure which way is north after looking at the photos. Which direction does the side of the house in the third photo face? Without knowing that, my answer is if the present location isn't affected, then the planned location will not be affected.
Quote:
On a side note, some of my neighbors have old OTA antennas on 30-40 foot towers that have probably been there since the 70's. I'm a bit jealous.
Ah, yes: I see towers in photo 2.

The coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

Attached Images
File Type: gif NEC Grounding.gif (16.5 KB, 1923 views)
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 6-Sep-2015 at 2:43 PM.
rabbit73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6-Sep-2015, 4:04 PM   #20
Irata
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thanks for the photos.What preamp did you get? Is it near the antenna or down at the lower end of the coax?
That sounds like a big improvement to me.
I'm not sure which way is north after looking at the photos. Which direction does the side of the house in the third photo face? Without knowing that, my answer is if the present location isn't affected, then the planned location will not be affected.
Ah, yes: I see towers in photo 2.

The coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

The preamp is a RCA TVPRAMP1R. Relatively inexpensive so I figured I would experiment a little. I impulse buy. I have it mounted about 6 inches under the antenna.

About an hour or so later most of the Indy stations dropped off. Signal still good with the others though. At one point I had, for a few minutes, solid reception of channel 21 out of Fort Wayne which is 100+ miles away. That was weird.

That's the back of the house. It faces south.

I don't think either of those houses use those antennas.

I talked to the lady across the street with the antenna tower(not pictured). It's a bit shorter but only installed a few years back. Said it was never used and told me I could have it if I could get it removed safely.
Irata is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Go Back   TV Fool > Over The Air Services > Help With Reception


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT. The time now is 4:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © TV Fool, LLC