Need Help with Selection

[GroundUrMast]

If you can do so safely, placing the antenna above the nearby trees is the single best improvement available.

The ANT-751 is a compromise in size and gain, with the hope that it will not be too directional. It needs a clear view of the horizon.

The alternative is to opt for a larger antenna but that will force you to install a rotator to make the most use of it.

You need a stable signal from the antenna before applying an amplifier... the purpose of which is to overcome losses on the output side of the amplifier.

[PeteyMcp]

Thanks for the input. I will probably try to simulate a higher mast by getting up on the roof and holding the antenna up over my head and checking for signal. Other than safety, are there any other concerns with me doing this, i.e. me holding the antenna affecting the signal?

I definitely won't get over the trees, but I'd like to see if it helps. Here's a view from the current antenna height (About 20' above grade, about a foot above the roof) in the direction of CBS, which I do not get at all:

Here is the direction of ABC and NBC, I get ABC no problem, I don't get NBC at all. I am aware that the Maple is going to cause me problems in the Summer, it may not be long for this world as we're thinking about having it removed:

And here is the direction of Fox, CW, MyN, and PBS, all of which we get very clearly:

ABC has a signal strength around 60-70, all of the others that we receive are in the 80-90 range.

Based on these photos, and I fighting a losing battle? There are other people in the area with antennas and similar if not worse tree cover. I may knock on a couple of doors to see how their reception is, or if they're even using the antennas any more.

I'm wondering if the hill in the direction of CBS and ABC/NBC may be blocking the signal, and maybe getting up another 8-10 feet will solve the problem.

Get the antenna up Higher.

I see a white pipe sticking out of the roof , Duck tape a Looooong pipe or put sections of antenna mast together , duck taped to the white pipe.

Is there a chimney on the house?? Can lash a Looooong pipe/mast sections to the chimney for a test of reception.

The reason I recommended the ANT751 is because it is small and as such is not a very directional antenna.

The Tv transmitters are at different locations around the compass.
And the not very directional ANT751 antenna receives to the , front , front angles , back , back angles , to the antenna. The sides of a antenna has the least reception.

The bigger a antenna is the more gain it has in the forward direction and less gain in other directions.

At this point I recommend connect a Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamplifier.

Preamplifiers can help with reception , but are not a substitute for getting signal , getting signal is the antennas job , and antennas receive better with little obstructions or no obstructions in the way of reception.

http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com.

Have only 1 Tv connected , no splitters.

Being that I am not there to look at the reception situation when I recommend antennas I do my best to find a balance of directions to receive and signal strengths.

This works out most of the time.

In 98% of my recommendations I go to great lengths to point out the tree situations and obstructions situations as to reception of Tv transmissions.

Because I know that most question askers place little importance to the importance of reception situations.


Your reception situation is not hopeless.

Your reception situation is a chalange.

Also might have to go to a bigger antenna , I am thinking , possibly a Winegard HD7696P antenna.

I am doing my best to strike a balance of antenna size and directions of reception and get all Tv stations with one antenna.

[PeteyMcp]

Thanks for the feedback Teleview. I can definitely get the antenna up higher, I just wanted to make sure it made sense before I went through the effort. The chimney is lower than the roof line in the photos I added. Rather than mounting the antenna from the plumbing vent, can't I just install a gable mount? The ridge line in the photo with the plumbing vent is from the gable I would mount off of, so I see no benefit to mounting off the vent unless you know of one. How high should I get this thing? Are you talking 10 feet? Or should I be looking at getting it up even higher? I'd prefer to stay away from guy wires unless absolutely necessary.

Should I try the pre-amp first, or the added height first?

Brian

Using the white vent pipe is a temporary mount.

The operative word for antenna height is -->Higher<--.

A Looong pipe can be used to get the antenna Higher.

Antenna mast pipe sections can also be connected together to get the antenna Higher.

And finding a location for the antenna where the trees are lower and less dense in directions of reception.

And trees distance away from antenna is better for directions of reception.

Tv antennas receive better when little to nothing is blocking reception.

Here is a way to get the antenna - Higher - http://www.ronard.com/Tripods%200703/4712.html.

And then mast pipe sections are put together to make the antenna about 10 feet higher then the top of the tripod antenna mount if required to get reliable reception of the Weak reception Tv transmissions.

No guy wires will be required.

The tripod antenna mount can be moved around on the roof to find a location has the best reception of the Tv transmissions.

Yes the preamplifier can be added now , however the preamplifier is not a substitute for getting the antenna Higher and finding a location where the Tv transmissions are stronger.

[PeteyMcp]

So another update. I borrowed a signal loss/gain meter from a co-worked, and from the antenna to the TV I'm only losing about 1.2db. When I was playing around, I decided to re-scan for channels and it looks like I'm actually receiving CBS now, I must have tweaked the aim and not re-scanned. Using the signal strength indicator on the TV, I played around a bit with the aim, and I was able to get NBC and CBS, but not at the same time.

I decided I would try out the Pre-amp to see if that helped. I had to return the ladder I was borrowing yesterday, so I decided to see if I could get it to work I would get what I could from RadioShack. I ended up with this: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...lue=Amplifiers

After installing everything, it appeared to be DOA, I lost all of the channels I had. I'm not sure if it was blocking the signal, or if something was disconnected within one of the units. I removed it and all of the channels came back. I'm going to return the unit and order the recommended unit from Amazon, hopefully I can get my hands on another ladder.

Slowly but surely.

Brian

I Never Recommend radio shack Tv preamplifiers or distribution amplifiers.

They are defective even when working.
_____________________________________

For testing of reception have No splitters connected.

[PeteyMcp]

Thanks Teleview, I knew better, I was just trying to cram in a fix before I lost the ladder. I'm actually happy that it didn't work since I ended up reading reviews today of that amplifier and they're pretty bad. Looks like most fail within a few months. I'm going to order the antennas direct pre-amp today and hopefully get it installed before winter really sets in.

If that gets me NBC and CBS, I'll probably stick with that until the leaves come in in the spring, and then I'll re-evaluate the height of the antenna.

Thanks again for the help.

[PeteyMcp]

I hate to resurrect this thread, but I FINALLY got a ladder and was able to make some modifications. I have the antenna in the same location, but up about 10'. I also added in a pre-amp on the mast. Before making any of these changes, I flipped on the TV and checked reception. I had lost some channels that I had previously received very clearly, I assume due to the leaves coming in. FOX and PBS disappeared, I can't remember if ABC did as well, but the signal was definitely week. When I first moved the height up 10', I checked reception and I think I added PBS back in, but still didn't have Fox and most of the channels were borderline. I added the pre-amp, and now I reliably receive all of the channels I had previously received before the leaves grew in, but still, no NBC or CBS. I tried adjusting the aim for a while with my wife watching the signal and never got reception on either NBC or CBS. Every so often NBC would flicker to a 30% signal, but it never lasted and we never actually got the channel to show up.

That big tree in the second photo I previously posted is a bear. Is it hopeless to get signal through that tree? I'd be curious to see if I get NBC and CBS after the leaves die off in the fall.

What else can I do here? I'd hate to go to a bigger antenna and a rotator, but I'm not sure what else I have for options. Getting ABOVE the tree seems pretty much impossible.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Brian

[elmo]

I'd assume your best signal reception for each problem channel is when you point right at each, although if blocked dead ahead, a little left or right tweak may boost your gain.

A larger antenna will likely help, but it may bring it's own issues. The bigger the antenna, the more directional it tends to be. Think of it like a flood light vs a spot light. Two 100w'ers aimed the same direction. One will light up a wide range, but not deep. The other will put a beam far away w/o much surrounding light. That's a way to imagine how the small and large antennas compare. So that smaller antenna allows you to aim between two signals and pick up some of each. If they're far away, (or blocked to some degree) you don't get enough of either to matter. If direct aim doesn't help, then a larger antenna aimed directly may do it. But you typically can't expect it to give you both if aimed between.

Multiple antennas can help but you have to have the tuners or switching to manage multiple signals. The other way is installing a rotor. If you can tune each when aimed dead on, then the rotor would do that for you on demand. It's a PITA, but it is an option.

Outside of that, I do wonder if something like the AD ClearStream 2-V would help you out, in terms of having the reflector on it. You could always try to go bigger.

But in the end, nearby trees are gonna likely impact your reception.

[PeteyMcp]

Thanks Elmo,

Even with direct aim, I can't pick up NBC or CBS reliably. I've never picked up NBC, and CBS I received for a short time in the winter, but I can only get blips of reception now, never enough to deliver a picture.

I'm reluctant to install a rotor, but if a larger, directional antenna and a rotor is the only option, I'll go that route. Is a Winegard HD7696P, as previously recommended by Teleview the best option?

What's the general feedback on the Clearstream 2V? The two channels I can't get are UHF, 38 and 44. Do certain antenna's do better with UHF vs. VHF?

[elmo]

Typically, the bigger the antenna, the more directional it becomes. Think of it as the 751 is like a floodlight - the 7696 is more of a spotlight; the spotlight will have longer reach, but it's more about where it's pointed, not a wide area.

What you need is more gain. A bigger antenna will have that. And if you check out some good antenna websites, you'll find the specs on the antennas being sold. A gain chart is what you are after. Every antenna varies in how much gain is has for a given frequency. So if you can find those numbers, you can see which have more gain on the channels you are having issues with. Just be sure that you are looking at the Real Ch # - not the virtual #'s - when you compare. Some gain charts will show frequency and others will show Ch #'s. You can map those with a table of frequency and channels; ie, Ch 14 = 470-476 MHz. So given that, you identify your problem channels and start checking out gain charts to find the best performer in that range.

The 751 has a couple of small elements there on the front. Those are for UHF. The longer rod elements at the back are for VHF. So to get more UHF gain, you need more UHF elements. Sometimes you'll see a corner reflector just behind the UHF elements to help boost that reception. The HD7696p has all of that. If you look around, you'll see various versions of the HD76xx antennas for comparison.

The CS2-V is a design that's different from the types you're looking at now, obviously. It's primarily a UHF by design with a reflector. The V adds an element for VHF reception.

[PeteyMcp]

Elmo,

Do you know where i can get my hands on a gain chart for the RCA-751R? I'm trying to compare the charts on all of these antennas to see if that tells me anything.

[PeteyMcp]

OK, I think I'm going to go with a bigger antenna and install a rotator if needed. The previously recommended winegard appears to be discontinued. What would be the current model that I should go with. Would a 7694P work? Or are there other options that might be better?

Any suggestion on a rotator?

[GroundUrMast]

I've never seen RCA publish much in the way of technical specs.

For a very crude estimation, compare the HBU-11 by Antennacraft - http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/HBU11_.pdf

Is a telescoping mast a reasonable option for you? http://www.3starinc.com/telescoping_masts.html It would require guy wires and some able bodied help to raise it safely. The ANT-751 has a good shot at working for you if it can clear the tree tops.

I'm currently working on a tree mounted system... about 90' up a Western Red Cedar. A couple months of cable bills paid for the climbing gear...

If you're going to be forced to remain low (below the trees), use the biggest antenna available... the 7694 would be an improvement over the ANT-751, but not enough. go up to the HD7698P and a good rotator.

[PeteyMcp]

Thanks for the input. I just don't see how I can get up high enough to clear the trees. Depending on how high the transmitter is, I may be able to run a couple of quick calculations to see if I can get up high enough, but not above, the tree to provide a clear path over the tree from the antenna to the transmitter. I see on the TV Fool report that there is an elevation profile, but it doesn't give me the actual height above see level, or relative height, of the transmitter. Is that available somewhere?

I also wanted to point out that the real problem tree only should be affecting NBC and ABC. I receive ABC no problem, but NBC I don't get at all. The signal for ABC is stronger, but not a ton, however, it's Hi-V as opposed to NBC which is UHF. Would that influence the antenna choice at all if I decide to change? Do you know anything about the HD Stacker from Denny's? Is it worth just staying with Winegard due to the history of quality manufacturing?

For what it's worth, the people in my area, which appears to be in an area of weaker reception for these channels due to the presence of a large hill, all seem to have larger directional antennas, most with rotators.

[PeteyMcp]

Thanks for the input. I just don't see how I can get up high enough to clear the trees. Depending on how high the transmitter is, I may be able to run a couple of quick calculations to see if I can get up high enough, but not above, the tree to provide a clear path over the tree from the antenna to the transmitter. I see on the TV Fool report that there is an elevation profile, but it doesn't give me the actual height above see level, or relative height, of the transmitter. Is that available somewhere?

I also wanted to point out that the real problem tree only should be affecting NBC and ABC. I receive ABC no problem, but NBC I don't get at all. The signal for ABC is stronger, but not a ton, however, it's Hi-V as opposed to NBC which is UHF. Would that influence the antenna choice at all if I decide to change? Do you know anything about the HD Stacker from Denny's? Is it worth just staying with Winegard due to the history of quality manufacturing?

For what it's worth, the people in my area, which appears to be in an area of weaker reception for these channels due to the presence of a large hill, all seem to have larger directional antennas, most with rotators.

[PeteyMcp]

Ok, hate to resurrect this, but I figured I would close it out. I ended up getting a Winegard HD7697P and installed it today. I pointed it directly at CBS which is about mid way between the two extreme directions. I picked up CBS and was happy to see I also picked up everything else even with the more directional antenna, and most of them are more solid than with the RCA. Unfortunately I still can't get NBC. I pointed it right at NBC and didn't get anything. I tried fine tuning the aim, but I realized after the fact that something funny was going on where I wasn't getting any stations. I might try again tomorrow and see if I can get NBC. Rather than tree trimming or putting up a very tall tower, I think we're just going to live without NBC.

Thanks for all of the help, sorry to drag this out so long, but I think I'm finally happy with what I have.

That being said, if anyone has any easy thoughts on NBC, let me know, otherwise I'll let this thread fade into oblivion.

Thanks again.

[GroundUrMast]

Experiment with extremely low mounting... and all available levels on the existing roof mast. (Just a last ditch 'Hail-Mary' idea.)

Digital Tv tuners can develop - Digital Glitches - that are not cleared out with simple channel scans.

Do Double rescan , http://www.wchstv.com/DoubleReScanAlert.pdf