New to Antennas and Hoping for Help!!

[Marian]

Hi, All,

First, my TV Fool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1ddab6601a9029

My husband and I have recently cut the cord from satellite service with Dish. Our goal is to cut monthly costs and quit wasting money on bad programming. We are enjoying streaming videos, but miss local news and weather. Until recently, our satellite package involved one receiver servicing two TV’s, with all the coaxial cable installed by the Dish guy in our attic two years ago (there’s a splitter up there somewhere). The furthest TV from the satellite location (now the antenna location) is an older Panasonic, and I don’t think it’s digital. That TV was the site of the Dish receiver and is about 50’ from the antenna. The second TV is digital and is about 25’ from the antenna. The antenna is mounted on the northeast corner of our 1-story house, on the eave. It’s the same location that the satellite dish was mounted. Our house is located on a hill, and TV reception is known to be tricky.

We’ve already purchased an antenna and are 7 days into a 14-day return time with Best Buy. It’s a ClearStream 2V, purchased on the advise of a sales rep. So far, we have picked up nothing with it. We initially pointed it at about 45 degrees, based on the suggestion of the sales rep. However, after much poring over the TV Fool reports and maps (a steep learning curve for the uninitiated), I think a more correct direction would be to about 85-90 degrees. But we’re still picking up nothing.

To complicate matters, when we removed the satellite dish from its mast, there were two coax cable ends plugged into the business end of the dish. But there is only one coax receptacle on the antenna. We’ve tried it with both cables, but neither has made a difference (still no reception).

So my questions are as follows:
1. Do we need a converter box? If yes, what is a good but inexpensive suggestion?
2. Did I buy an appropriate antenna? The questions and answers I’ve been reading on the forum make me realize how clueless I am on that issue.
3. Are we doing the right thing with the two coax cables (leaving one to dangle while the other is plugged in)?
4. Is there any hope of OTA TV for us?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Marian

[darkmatter]

I am by far not an expert but I can tell you this the Clearstream 2v is not going to work for you. I contacted antennas direct (they make the Clearstream 2v) and recomended it for me and I have stations that are LOS and it didn't work for me. If it were me I would return the antenna to Best Buy and contact them directly. For me they were very helpful. They gave me three different antennas (at no additional cost to me) because I needed Low Vhf channels 1-6 High Vhf channels 7-14 and Uhf channels 15-69. Their antennas are pretty small in size and they have a life time warrenty. I would recommend that you talk to Marty. I don't know his extension directly. They will work with you on pricing to. Their customer service is awsome. Good luck.

Rich

[Marian]

Thank you, Rich. That was indeed my first concern, whether to return the antenna soon. Sorry to be so ignorant, but what is LOS?

I will call Antennas Direct and speak to Marty.

Marian

[GroundUrMast]

Originally Posted by Marian

....
So my questions are as follows:
1. Do we need a converter box? If yes, what is a good but inexpensive suggestion?
2. Did I buy an appropriate antenna? The questions and answers I’ve been reading on the forum make me realize how clueless I am on that issue.
3. Are we doing the right thing with the two coax cables (leaving one to dangle while the other is plugged in)?
4. Is there any hope of OTA TV for us?

....

Marian

#4.... Yes

#1.... Maybe, can you post the Make/Model of each of your existing TV's?

#3.... The cable should be usable in your antenna system. The 'splitter' in the attic may not be a splitter. If it's a switch matrix or other satellite system only devise, it may be blocking the OTA signal. There may be a bit of cable tracing to do, but it's quite likely the cable can be used, worse case, a simple and inexpensive 'barrel' connector may be needed to connect two cable together in the attic. (Only one cable is needed from the TV antenna. The unused cable can be sealed and saved for a backup.)

#2.... Your TV Fool report is based on a proposed antenna height of 10' above ground (the default value in the TV Fool software). When I click on a station call sign listed on your report, the path profile shown make me think you could have much better signal conditions if you mount the antenna a bit higher. Can you run another TV Fool report using 25' or 30' as the proposed antenna mounting height, then post it for us?

The signal levels shown are lower than I would like to see if you could only choose the CS2V. But if mounted high enough it may be ideal... let's see.

I have also had the opportunity to speak with Marty at AD... a standup guy IMO.

[darkmatter]

I didn't see that ground your mast. I had a long day at work yesterday. LOS means line of site anything other then that is how many times the signal is reflected. Ie 1 Edge I believe is reflected 1 time and so on.

[ADTech]

Marian,

We'll be happy to help you out directly, however, as it happens, I'm out of the office today and Marty's normal schedule is Mon-Thu. Both he and I will be in Monday morning although at slightly staggered start times. Please wait until Monday to call and ask for me (Steve) if the problem hasn't been resolved by then.

I'd need your exact address (verified by Google Maps to be accurate) in order to analyze your situation. You're invited to reply to me by this website's Private Message feature or by email to info @ antennasdirect.com with that information. I'd like to get a precise location so that I can look for hills, trees, buildings, etc. If you have them GPS coordinates are preferred.

I suspect your complete lack of any reception is due to some combination of your terrain and "rookie" mistakes. Don't worry, we (and the volunteer members of this board) can identify the former and help out with the latter. GUM covered the most common ones while I was asleep overnight.

Your best diagnostic step at the moment is to pick up a 50' length of RG6 coax and use it for initial setup rather than diving into a pre-existing sat cabling scheme. You'll also need to verify that the sat mount provides a suitable location for the antenna to "see" in the direction off towards Medford. In the event that the mount's location causes the antenna to be facing point blank into your own roof or some other physical obstacle, then it is an unsuitable location and the antenna must be moved.

I'll be checking back both here and at the office's email periodically though out the weekend to see if there is any assistance I can offer.

Do keep an eye on your return window from the store int he event that it's determined that the C2V is not appropriate.

Converter boxes are required for older sets that do not have internal digital tuners. Boxes run $50-60 at WalMart , Best But, Radio Shack, etc. TV sets that do have internal digital tuners must still be programmed to use an antenna as antenna reception is NEVER automatic. Please refer to that set's owner's manual or call the set manufacturer's support line for best assistance with that particular make and model.

Best of luck!

[Marian]

Thank you all for your responses and requests for additional information.

Our two TVs are: Panasonic CT-20G8G (an old style TV that protrudes to the rear); and an Emerson flat screen LC320EMX.

My description of the antenna height was a bit flawed. As I mentioned, we are on a hill. The high point is to the northeast, and it slopes down to the southwest. Therefore, our building pad is dug into the hill, and although our antenna on the northeast corner is 10' off the ground, it's only 4' above the natural terrain.

I did some "what-if's" on the TV mapping section, and 10' above the natural terrain seems to yield the best lines on the map. Both higher and lower result in dimmer lines. The correct report for 10' above the natural terrain is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1dda460396fcb4. The correct report for our current reality (4' above the natural terrain) is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1dda2db70c8d9a.

The two coax cable ends that were going from the gable end of our house into the satellite dish --- were there two cable ends because there were two TV's???

My husband will need to get up in the attic and determine what is going on with the cables. Whatever connectors the Dish guy put in place, we will replace with something generic as mentioned. I'm assuming that we need to have one coax cable going from the antenna to the furthest away TV (the one that needs a converter box), with a T-connection midway to go to the digital TV in the middle.

We will be returning the ClearStream antenna to Best Buy. Although it may be a fine antenna, we don't have enough time to find out before our 14-day return deadline. I will plan to contact Steve at Antennas Direct on Monday for additional advice.

If anyone has new insights from my additional information, I'm all ears. I feel much more confident now, after your comments, questions, and offers of help. Thank you!

Marian

[GroundUrMast]

Thanks for the model numbers. A quick online search for the manuals leaves me understanding that the Panasonic was built in about 2003, before the FCC mandated that a digital tuner be included. You'll need a converter box to make use of the Panasonic set.

The Emerson manual ( http://funaiport.com/download/downlo...&brand=Emerson ) indicates you have an ATSC (the digital standard for over-the-air broadcasting) capable set. So no converter should be needed. You will need to go through the setup procedure to set the tuner to the correct mode though. Most tuners default to 'cable' mode which is incomparable with the signal standard used for over-the-air broadcasting, this may well explain why you have yet to see any signal.

The two cables from the satellite dish provide separate connections for the horizontally polarized and vertically polarized signals from the satellite. (There are actually two independent antennas sharing a common reflector dish.) In N. Amer., virtually all antennas designed for over the air TV use horizontal polarity only. So you only have one output from the TV antenna.

Big box home centers will usually stock the parts needed, such as signal splitters (performs the 'T' function), cable and connectors.

If you can not, or will not consider mounting any higher, you'll need a high performance antenna. Aimed at the main group of transmitters, (about 70° per a compass) a UHF only antenna such as an Antennas Direct DB8e or 91XG would be appropriate. Similar products from other vendors would be the Winegard HD9095P, and Channel Master CM-4228 and CM-3023. These antennas fall into two major categories, panel style and Yagi. The panel antenna is compact and often much easier to mount on a satellite 'J-pole'. The Yagi antenna is long and may not have adequate support if you are going to re-use the 'J-pole'... It will depend on the size and style of pole you have.

Given the weak signal levels, you'll likely need a preamplifier to overcome the losses caused by cable and splitters. An Antennas Direct PA-18 is a good option... Unless you are able to get more signal by mounting higher... (my preference).

I would still be curious to see what your 25' or 30' TV Fool Report looks like...

[Marian]

Here is the TV Fool report for 24' above normal terrain level: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1ddab3ebb12069

My concern about a pole so high (25' above the normal steep terrain), is how on earth we would mount the antenna, maintain it, and deal with getting it pointed, etc. I was relieved to see that the lower antenna height seemed to show better lines on the map (it was a surprise, actually). However, the lower antenna height is still significantly higher than what we have now. So I'll be interested to hear what you have to say about the report above. I was only looking at the map, as I didn't really understand the report details. The solid green LOS to the east at 84 degrees gives me hope. If we are able to pick up those channels, which I think are Fox and NBC, we will be satisfied.

On the Emerson TV, I've been selecting "antenna" all along in the setup mode, so the lack of reception is for another reason.

Marian

[ADTech]

The lack of reception is, in my opinion, due to a likely mistake in the re-use of the satellite cabling. Dish Network it seems, almost always installs a multi-switch in the system which, if not removed, will ALWAYS block TV antenna signals, Directv, depending on the age of the installation may or may not have used on.

Your bet immediate step is to proceed as I suggested above BEFORE deciding to return the C2V. Without any data from its performance, I'd simply suggest a bull-blown system of a C4/C5/PA18 to install to see if reception is there. That's a lot of time, money, ad effort that may or may not be needed, so, please, go get a temporary coaxial cable and make a temporary connection only to the Emerson and give it a scan. RG6 is ubiquitous, you can even get it at WalMart, KMart, Sears, or any hardware or home center.

Don't get carried away with experimenting with small elevation changes in the TVFool simulation software. When a location's signal path is over sharply changing terrain, the software averages the terrain into 100 square meter blocks making any effort at precision in the antenna height or its location relatively meaningless. Your only true indication of reception prospects is to successfully hook up an antenna and to test actual reception, at task that has not yet been completed.

When an antenna is situated on the immediate "back" side of a hill, the signals are often far weaker than forecasted, sometimes completely absent. That's why antenna siting relative to the surrounding terrain can become critical. That often leads to one of the FAQs here: "How high does the antenna need to be?" There is no better answer than "As high as it needs to be in order to be placed in the path of the incoming signals." Unfortunately, it usually not possible to provide a specific number as every installation is different due to the surroundings and the signal path.
.
Please attempt to resolve the concerns about the cabling so that you can give the C2V a valid test before it goes back to the store.

[Marian]

OK, then. We will get the connectors/cable issue in the attic addressed before we do anything with the antenna. And we'll do the test on the digital TV only. I'll be back in touch after we have that done.

Thanks!

Marian

[Marian]

I am thrilled to report that, when following your suggestion to bypass all of Dish's cabling just for test purposes, we have reception!!

After installing the bypass coax, autoscan revealed no reception. I didn't like my husband's assessment of 84 degrees, so I corrected that. We still didn't expect reception because the antenna visibly didn't look like it was pointed high enough to clear the hill to the east. But I ran autoscan anyway, and was very startled to have reception on five channels, four digital and one analog. Aside from the direction the antenna is pointed (the horizontal axis), we can't tilt it up anymore than it already is without some modification of the mast. At present, the antenna remains at 4' higher than the natural terrain, with an appearance of pointing into the hill!

The four digital channels are 26-1, 26-2, 5-1, & 5-2. 26 is Fox, and 5 is NBC. I don't understand why we have two Fox channels and 2 NBC channels, but more is better!! Channel 14, the analog channel, is a Spanish-language channel.

Steve, I will call you on Monday to discuss some other issues, but thank you so much for insisting that we test the cabling before giving up on the antenna. It's hard to believe that this petite little antenna is actually working. And, it's easy to get off track when there are so many variables.

Have a great weekend!

Marian