Struggling with reception

jzinckgra · 27-Mar-2013, 11:10 PM

Here is my analysis:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1dda08d91b12a0

I have tried a couple different directional antennas before realizing I probably needed an omnidirectional. I can easily get ABC, NBC, CBS, but Fox (23.1) is the tough one since it's in a different direction then the others. The most recent directional I have used is a Terk HDTVO. This is mounted outside ~15' above the ground, attached to 50' of RG6 then into the amplifier. I gave up on this antenna and just tonite tried a brand new Winegard MS-2000 omnidirectional. I had high hopes, but the results are the same.

Any thoughts? All I care about are the major networks, but I can only get 3/4 of them. I may be able to put the antenna up another 5-8' high, but not sure that will do much. I'm kinda surprised since we're on a hill at 720'. Thanks.

rabbit73 · 27-Mar-2013, 11:45 PM

Welcome to the forum.

The amplifier for the Terk HDTVO is in the antenna; the part inside is just the power injector. You haven't added a second amp have you?

The HDTVO is a very directional antenna. Does it pick up FOX if you aim the antenna at about 78 degrees magnetic? If yes, then you will need to rotate the antenna for FOX or use 2 antennas with an A/B switch to select which direction you want. Hopefully your TV has the ability to add another channel after scan so that you don't need to rescan every time you change direction.

Another alternative would be an antenna without a reflector to make it bi-directional so that it will get both directions at once. One example would be a 4-bay UHF antenna with a folded dipole for VHF combined with a UVSJ. That setup would probably need a preamp at the antenna for NBC; try without it first.

If the MS2000 didn't improve your reception, that would seem to indicate that you need a directional antenna aimed at FOX instead of an omni.

jzinckgra · 28-Mar-2013, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbit73

Welcome to the forum.

The amplifier for the Terk HDTVO is in the antenna; the part inside is just the power injector. You haven't added a second amp have you?

The HDTVO is a very directional antenna. Does it pick up FOX if you aim the antenna at about 78 degrees magnetic? If yes, then you will need to rotate the antenna for FOX or use 2 antennas with an A/B switch to select which direction you want. Hopefully your TV has the ability to add another channel after scan so that you don't need to rescan every time you change direction.

Another alternative would be an antenna without a reflector to make it bi-directional so that it will get both directions at once. One example would be a 4-bay UHF antenna with a folded dipole for VHF combined with a UVSJ. That setup would probably need a preamp at the antenna for NBC; try without it first.

If the MS2000 didn't improve your reception, that would seem to indicate that you need a directional antenna aimed at FOX instead of an omni.

Hi, thanks. I really need to get all channels without an a/b switch since we like to dvr shows that come in on fox and the other channels. Can you provide an example of 4 bay UHF? I actually have a CM-4228 which I think is similar. I think we might have to go with satellite.

rabbit73 · 28-Mar-2013, 3:56 AM

Quote:

I really need to get all channels without an a/b switch since we like to dvr shows that come in on fox and the other channels.

That makes the solution more difficult. The way CATV systems solve the problem is to have separate antennas for each channel and combine them with bandpass filters, but that is a very expensive solution. I can't tell from what you say if you have been able to receive FOX yet. Assuming you can if you aim an antenna at it, these are my thoughts:

1. The first solution that comes to mind seems outlandish, but it has advantages: two antennas and two DVRs. This will allow you to record with one and watch the other, or record two shows that are on at the same time. You will also have a backup DVR, the cost of which will be less in the long run than satellite.

2. A 4-bay antenna is like one half of your 4228 which is an 8-bay of two 4-bays stacked side-by-side; CM calls the 4-bay a 4221. Since you already have a 4228 you could remove the reflector (wire mesh screen at the back) and receive from both front and back, without switching, signals from:
WGME CH38 CBS 225 degrees magnetic
WPFO CH23 FOX 78 degrees magnetic
WMTW CH8 ABC 253 degrees magnetic
WCSH CH44 NBC 251 degrees magnetic

If CH8 is too weak, add a VHF-high folded dipole cut for CH8 with a UVSJ.

3. It is sometimes possible to combine the signals from two antennas with a splitter in reverse used as a combiner. This can sometimes work, but often not. The problem is that both antennas can receive the same channel and when they arrive at the combiner they may or may not be in phase resulting in enhancement or cancellation. These two signals can be considered as co-channel interference. One would have to be at least 16 dB weaker than the other (best at least 20 dB) to work.

Quote:

I'm kinda surprised since we're on a hill at 720'.

You may be on a hill but the coverage from FOX is very spotty at your location, and there are other hills in the signal path. It looks like they got the signal power and NM numbers reversed.

28-Mar-2013, 5:39 AM

The following is a - Clear - Clean - Simple - recommendation.

Here is a 1 antenna shot at reception of.

WPTX-DT Real Digital UHF channel 43 , virtual number (51.1-2) , CW and Me-Tv.

WPME-DT Real UHF Digital channel 35 , virtual number (35.1) MyTv and Maine Visitors Channel.

WCBB-DT Real VHF Digital channel 10 , virtual number (10.1) PBS and PBS World and Main Capitol Connection.

WGME-DT Real UHF Digital channel 38 , virtual number (13.1) CBS.

WFPO-DT Real UHF Digital channel 23 , virtual number (23.1) FOX.

WMNE-LP Real UHF Digital channel 32 , virtual number (32.1) TBN.

WMTW-DT Real VHF Digital channel 08 , virtual number (8.1) ABC and Accu Weather.

WCSH-DT Real UHF Digital channel 44 , virtual number (6.1) NBC and Weather.

_____________________

Antenna rotator Not Required. Antenna rotators Are Not channel surfing friendly , must wait for the antenna to rotate and There Will Be Domestic Issues about the direction the antenna is aimed when using a antenna rotator.

_____________________

Above the roof in such a manner that the roof and house are not blocking reception to the , east , south , south west.

Install a Antennas Direct , Clear Stream 2 Complete UHF/VHF antenna aimed at about 215 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...VHF-Combo.html.

Remove the Reflector Screen of the CS2 Complete antenna and the CS2 Complete antenna will receive at the front and back of the antenna for reception of.

PBS and FOX to the east.

And

CW , MeTv , MyNetwork , CBS , NBC , ABC , TBN , and Etc. , to the south and south west.

_______________

Install a Antennas Direct , CPA-19 preamp.

_______________

For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

Buy the HFS splitters at , http://www.solidsignal.com , or , http://www.hollandelectronics.com.

____________

Here are some roof top antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , install the 5 foot or 7 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , install the #4560 eave antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.

http://www.ronard.com.

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing the word ronard in the soildsignal search box or buy from ronard.

___________

Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. .

http://www.solidsignal.com.

http://www.amazon.com.

_______________________

As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , do a good job of , absorbing , multi-path reflecting , blocking , Digital broadcast Tv reception and so do buildings and other obstructions including your own roof and house.

It is best to install the CS2Complete antenna at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the directions of reception including your own roof and house.

The Tv's Must Channels Scan for the , OTA=Over The Air , Digital Broadcast Tv stations/channels , often named the , 'Air Channels' or 'Antenna Channels' in the Tv Setup Menu because the Tv transmissions travel through the Air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna.

Some Digital Tv's will Automatic channel scan for cable channels.

DO NOT channel scan for cable tv channels.

Go into the Tv Setup Menu and select , "Air Channels' / 'Antenna Channels'.

jzinckgra · 28-Mar-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbit73

That makes the solution more difficult. The way CATV systems solve the problem is to have separate antennas for each channel and combine them with bandpass filters, but that is a very expensive solution. I can't tell from what you say if you have been able to receive FOX yet. Assuming you can if you aim an antenna at it, these are my thoughts:

1. The first solution that comes to mind seems outlandish, but it has advantages: two antennas and two DVRs. This will allow you to record with one and watch the other, or record two shows that are on at the same time. You will also have a backup DVR, the cost of which will be less in the long run than satellite.

2. A 4-bay antenna is like one half of your 4228 which is an 8-bay of two 4-bays stacked side-by-side; CM calls the 4-bay a 4221. If you have a 4228 you could remove the reflector and possibly receive from both sides, without switching, signals from:
WGME CH38 CBS 225 degrees magnetic
WPFO CH23 FOX 78 degrees magnetic
WMTW CH8 ABC 253 degrees magnetic
WCSH CH44 NBC 251 degrees magnetic

3. It is sometimes possible to combine the signals from two antennas with a splitter in reverse used as a combiner. This can sometimes work, but often not. The problem is that both antennas can receive the same channel and when they arrive at the combiner they may or may not be in phase resulting in enhancement or cancellation. These two signals can be considered as co-channel interference. One would have to be at least 16 dB weaker than the other (best at least 20 dB) to work.
You may be on a hill but the coverage from FOX is very spotty at your location. It looks like they got the signal power and NM numbers reversed.

To clarify, if I point in the direction of Fox, I get a strong signal (~75), but then ABC is pixelated. I thought about using a splitter and trying both antennas. Where should I put the splitter? Should I have it outside and combine both antenas there, then run one wire to the TV?

rabbit73 · 28-Mar-2013, 3:21 PM

Another idea:

4. Channel Master used to make a device called a JoinTenna to join two antennas. You might be able to find one for CH23. One input would pass only the FOX CH23 signal and reject all others. The other input would pass all other channels and reject CH23. The output combines both.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Ant...Jointennas.htm
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1152566/th...tenna-exchange
Google search

If you can't find a CH23 JoinTenna, Tin Lee Electronics in Canada can make a custom filter, but it would cost more than $100.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/945821/alt...e-to-jointenna
Google search
http://www.tinlee.com/index.php
http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.p...IGNALINJECTORS
http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-custom...kup%20Info.pdf

rabbit73 · 28-Mar-2013, 6:40 PM

Quote:

To clarify, if I point in the direction of Fox, I get a strong signal (~75), but then ABC is pixelated.

Good, that's normal and promising.

Quote:

I thought about using a splitter and trying both antennas. Where should I put the splitter? Should I have it outside and combine both antenas there, then run one wire to the TV?

There are several ways you can combine your antennas. If you use the MS-2000 for 38, 8, and 44, and the TERK for CH23, both antenns will pick up CH8 which might cause a problem. You can insert a UVSJ after the TERK power inserter to block 8 by using the UHF and common ports.

Since your antennas have preamps, the coax to them carries DC up to the preamp and the signal down to the TV. An ordinary 2-way splitter does not pass DC, so it must be placed after the power inserter/power supply.

If I had your antennas, this is what I would try if using a combiner:

Code:

4228 for CH23 > coax to inside > UVSJ to pass UHF only \
                                                         > combiner > DVR
TERK for other 3 CHs > coax to inside > power inserter /

You can make a temporary setup for this test, but if you find a way that works you should ground the coax with grounding blocks, and connect the grounding blocks and antenna masts to the house electrical system ground with no. 10 copper wire to meet NEC requirements.

If CH23 isn't strong enough, you will need to add a preamp to the 4228; the input of the combiner would come after the 4228 preamp power supply/power inserter.

If you were to put the combiner outside, you would need use rubber boots on the coax connectors for waterproofing with a permanent setup.

The 4228 can keep its reflector for this combiner test because it is only for one direction, but I prefer the simplicity of solution No. 2 without the reflector (removing the reflector from an 8-bay or 4-bay antenna converts it from a uni-directional antenna to a bi-directinal antenna---I favor the 4-bay for its wider beamwidth) using just one bi-directional antenna for all 4 channels.

The similar single bi-directional antenna suggestion by teleview is also good.