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Old 19-Jun-2015, 5:53 PM   #1
byruda
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Join Date: Jun 2015
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Post Assistance in Receiving PBS in Ontario

Good day,

I am a US citizen now living in Ottawa, Ontario. Because I do not have cable, I am presently unable to view programming from PBS.

I have only one TV, a recently purchased Samsung model.

I live in a single family house with a roof peak at 38 feet. A brick chimney extends about 4 feet above the peak. The house is in a dense, urban neighborhood with maple trees a bit taller than the roof peak directly to the south. There is a large gap in the trees at bearing 145". All the other houses in the immediate area to the south are of similar height.

My TV signal analysis is here:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8230d1ecd19368

The only differences between what local TV channels the Samsung TV is receiving, a total of 13, and what the signal analysis says it should receive are:

1) Signal report CIII-DT (vc 14.1) is shown on Samsung as Global Network CIII-HD (vc 6.1)
2) Signal report does not list CBOFT-D shown on Samsung at vc 9.1, CBC French
3) Signal report does not list CHCH-HD shown on Samsung at vc 11.1
4) Samsung displays a channel labelled OMNI2 on vc 14.1 not CIII-DT as shown on signal report
5) Samsung displays a channel labelled OMNI1 on vc 60.1. not CIII-DT as shown on signal report (see item 1, above). Signal report does not list any vc 60.1

I also ran an FM signal analysis. The results for the station I am interested in are:

WSLU 89.5 26.39 -76.4 2Edge 67.3 154" (167") 537.5

These results reflect a somewhat arbitrary antenna height of 50 feet AGL, but one I thought could be achieved.

The distant TV channel I would like to receive is WNPI-DT, real channel 23 with a NM(db) of -4.1. Receiving WWNY, real channel 7, NM(db) -12.9, would be a bonus.

I would like the opinion of the forum whether the purchase of:

1) an external, high-gain antenna, e.g. Winegard HD7698P Platinum;
2) antenna rotor;
3) high-gain pre-amplifier;
4) high-grade coax; and
5) antenna mount and mast.

will enable me to receive reliably the PBS TV and FM stations I am interested in, as well as the OTA local digital television stations I currently receive with a small external TV antenna mounted on my back deck.

I would very much appreciate any comments on my equipment list, additions or deletions to same, antenna mast height (I'd like to keep it to 12 feet or less) and specific model recommendations for the hardware. I could also use some help with how to avoid signal overload with respect to using a high-gain system for both the remote stations as well as the powerful local channels.

Thank you for your help with this.
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Old 19-Jun-2015, 8:01 PM   #2
rabbit73
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,191
Welcome, byruda:

I suggest you go here to answer some of your questions; they know more about your local stations than I do:
Over-The-Air (OTA) Digital Television > OTA Reception Results
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/129-...ption-results/

ON - Ottawa, Vanier, Gloucester, Orleans - OTA
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/129-...leans-ota.html

But I'll try to answer a few:
Quote:
1) Signal report CIII-DT (vc 14.1) is shown on Samsung as Global Network CIII-HD (vc 6.1)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIII-DT
scroll down to transmitters

Quote:
2) Signal report does not list CBOFT-D shown on Samsung at vc 9.1, CBC French
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBOFT-DT
Quote:
3) Signal report does not list CHCH-HD shown on Samsung at vc 11.1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHCH-DT
Quote:
4) Samsung displays a channel labelled OMNI2 on vc 14.1 not CIII-DT as shown on signal report
5) Samsung displays a channel labelled OMNI1 on vc 60.1. not CIII-DT as shown on signal report (see item 1, above). Signal report does not list any vc 60.1
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...rket&mktid=274
Quote:
The distant TV channel I would like to receive is WNPI-DT, real channel 23 with a NM(db) of -4.1.
This will be difficult. You have identified some, but not all, of the problems.
Quote:
will enable me to receive reliably the PBS TV and FM stations I am interested in, as well as the OTA local digital television stations I currently receive with a small external TV antenna mounted on my back deck.
I think you will need separate systems for local and PBS.
Quote:
Receiving WWNY, real channel 7, NM(db) -12.9, would be a bonus.
That will never be reliable; it's Tropo.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Jun-2015 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 19-Jun-2015, 8:53 PM   #3
stvcmty
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by byruda View Post
[...]
I am a US citizen now living in Ottawa, Ontario. Because I do not have cable, I am presently unable to view programming from PBS.[...]
If all you want is PBS, you may want to look at a FTA system. You can get PBS channels from a satellite at 125W or 87W.

http://www.ftalist.com/ses2.php
http://www.ftalist.com/amc21.php

You can get a complete system for about $200. For more information, I suggest heading over to http://www.satelliteguys.us/xen/foru...discussion.24/
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Old 19-Jun-2015, 10:09 PM   #4
rabbit73
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Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 2,191
Quote:
I could also use some help with how to avoid signal overload with respect to using a high-gain system for both the remote stations as well as the powerful local channels.
Yeah, that's one of the problems.

CBOT-DT is your strongest signal with a Noise Margin of 64.5 dB, even before adding the 7698 antenna average UHF gain of 13 dB.



Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

You will need an antenna like the 7698, 91XG, or DB8E for WNPI and a preamp which would be overloaded by your local signals. The dynamic range between CBOT and WNPI is 68.6 dB. To this you must add 16 dB for the SNR needed by WNPI to get the required SFDR (Spurious-Free Dynamic Range) of 84.6 dB. This will not work because the strong local signals will create spurious signals in the preamp itself from IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) that will probably wipe out the weak signals including WNPI.



Another problem with WNPI is that it is a 2Edge signal from terrain obstructions that interfere with the signal path. The curvature of the earth starts to interfere with signals at about 70 miles.

Yet another problem is that WNPI has adjacent channel interference from CICO-DT on real channel 24, which is 62.9 dB stronger.

ATSC Recommended Practice:
Receiver Performance Guidelines

Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010

5.4.2 Adjacent Channel Rejection
The receiver should meet or exceed the thresholds given in Table 5.2 for rejection of first adjacent-channel interference at the desired signal levels shown above the columns therein.



62.9 dB is much greater than 33 dB.

The only way I can see for you to have a chance of receiving WNPI is with two separate antenna systems, one for your local channels, and one for WNPI. You could have an A/B switch for antennas or have a separate tuner for one antenna, with its output connected to the A/V input of the TV and other antenna would connect to the antenna jack of the TV.

The WNPI antenna system would need a single channel bandpass filter for real channel 23 from Tin Lee:
http://www.tinlee.com/bandpass_filters.php?active=3#CF7

You can call them to talk with an engineer and email your TVFOOL report.

Ant > CH23 BP Filter > Preamp > coax > Power Inserter > TV

Just for fun, you could try it before ordering the expensive custom filter, to see what you can get.

In theory, it is possible to use one antenna with RF relays to remotely switch in or out the preamp and filter, but that would be a custom job.

I wonder if you could stream over the internet what you want from PBS, either directly or with a Slingbox from a remote location in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slingbox
http://www.slingbox.com/
Help with NFL football games please!
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Attached Images
File Type: jpg NMChartC.jpg (71.3 KB, 366 views)
File Type: jpg SFDRdiagramJ2 (2).jpg (103.6 KB, 375 views)
File Type: jpg AdjacentChannelThresholds.jpg (59.0 KB, 2287 views)
__________________
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aeri...ttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 20-Jun-2015 at 12:01 AM.
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