Please help pick an antenna in Toronto, ON

raven007 · 25-Dec-2011, 5:47 AM

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ANOTHER UPDATE - Dec. 28, 2011
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I guess the posts are pre-moderated.

In Canada, we do not own a balcony.

I had to set cable to "OFF" in TV settings and I got 31 digital and a few "white" analogs.

Would ClearStream2V antenna would really help, especially with those Rochester channels?

It looks like I'm missing mostly analog channels

Analog
CBLT 5 (although I get CBC on 5.1 in digital)
CFMT-TV 47
CIII-TV 41 (not sure if digital CIII-TV is the same - 41.1)
CJMT-TV 69
CITY-TV 57

CITS-TV 36 (although it is at 202 degrees, so may be difficult to get)
CKVR-TV 3 (although it is at 350 degrees, so may be difficult to get)
CIII-TV 6 (although it is at 240 degrees, so may be difficult to get)
CKCO-TV 13 (although it is at 254 degrees, so may be difficult to get)
CIII-TV 27 (not sure if digital CIII-TV is the same - 41.1)
WBNF-CA 15 (it is 52 miles away)

Digital
CITY-DT 44.1
CJMT-DT 44.1 (two channels fighting for one spot?)
CFMT-DT 64.1
CKXT-DT 66.1
CKXT-DT 15.1 (not a typo, same name as 66.1)
WNYO-DT 49 (no .1? strange)
WBBZ-TV 67.1 (tvfool's chart says path - 2Edge, which is kinda strange at 151 degree angle)

I do not get any of "Grey: These channels are very weak and will most likely require extreme measures to try and pick them up". Whatever is between 180 and 360 degrees has to go through the building; so I do not really expect to pick that up.

Other channels that I'm missing from here:
http://www.remotecentral.com/hdtv/index.html

This TV 67-2
METV 67-3 (don't care, as I get it in 720p/2.0)
Daystar Television Network 67-4 (some religious channel)
WUTV-DT 29-1

Supposed to be far/hard to receive - about 10 stations out of Rochester.
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UPDATE
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Thanks, guys!

OK, no Lava antennas and no preamp.

I'd try rabbit ears antenna, have to dig through my parents garage, but I do not think it will help me with Buffalo stations though, right?

I did a bit more reading - it does not look like Antennas Direct DB2e support VHF. And Toronto has stations that are VHF. It looks like Buffalo is all UHF, not sure if they plan to convert to VHF.

Would aiming antenna in one direction be a problem since the difference between Toronto and Buffalo is ~50-55 degrees? Or if I aim for Buffalo I should pick up Toronto anyway? Would pointing somewhat away from Toronto reduce the chance of overload?

I am not sure about condominium rules re: antenna on a balcony.

Are the following antennas not amplified and would they work for my purposes? I would put an antenna right in front of south facing window.
I guess I need ClearStream2 with as it has a higher UHF gain.

ClearStream2™ Complete Long-Range VHF/UHF Digital TV (DTV) Antenna Combo Pack
http://overtheair.saveandreplay.com/...2_Complete.asp
Max gain: 10.4 dBi UHF;3.1dBi VHF

Antennas Direct ClearStream5
http://overtheair.saveandreplay.com/...stream5_C5.asp
Max gain: 4.9 dBi UHF; 7.6 dBi VHF
VHF Range: 65 Miles+

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Hello,

Could you guys please help me pick an antenna?

I live in Toronto, Canada, about 200ft above the ground, facing south. I have most channels from ~7miles, and some transmmitters that are ~52 miles away and 3 channels from transmitter that is 80 miles away (based on tvfool.com TV Signal Analysis Results ). Which indoor antenna is the best for my needs and why?

Also, do I need high gain or low gain antennas, since I'm very close to CN tower, and I'm not sure if high gain would cause a problem.

Do I need a pre-amp? The antenna would be within 6ft of TV.

My TV: Sony KDL-32L4000, it has NTSC and ATSC tuner

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...40331a21a0010e

I'm looking at the following:
1. Winegard SS 3000 Indoor UHF/VHF Antenna (SS-3000) $74.99CAD
http://overtheair.saveandreplay.com/...arpshooter.asp
Range may be lacking: up to 30 miles

2. LAVA HD600 Indoor/Outdoor HDTV VHF/UHF Digital TV Antenna $34.95
http://antennadeals.com/HD600.html
Claim range of up to 75 miles but bad reviews.

3. LAVA HD468 $34.95
http://antennadeals.com/HD468.html
Claim range of up to 75 miles, good reviews, altough I find range a bit hard to believe at that price

4. LAVA HD-700A $45.00
http://www.homeantenna.org/inhdan.html

5. Antennas Direct DB2e Extended Range Antenna $79.99 CDN
http://overtheair.saveandreplay.com/...irect_DB2e.asp
Range: Up to 45+ miles, 60˚ beam-width, need some kind of stnad for this, though.
May need to get a kit:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...na-Bundle.html

6. ClearStream2™ Outdoor Long-Range Digital TV (DTV) Antenna $99.99
http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...V-antenna.html
Range: Up to 50 Miles

7. ClearStream™ Micron XG $79.99
http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...V-Antenna.html
Range: 35 Mile maybe too small

8. Antennacraft® HDX1000 Amplified HDTV Antenna
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3740644
Range: UHF - 50miles, VHF - 20-40miles

9. Winegard FreeVision FV-HD30 Compact Ultra Powerful Metro rated DTV TV Antenna (FVHD30)
http://overtheair.saveandreplay.com/...on_FV-HD30.asp
Range may be lacking: up to 30 miles

Thanks!

Dave Loudin · 25-Dec-2011, 1:31 PM

No, you do NOT need a preamp. There is precious little signal loss in 6 feet, and preamps do not dig signals out of the noise.

Do NOT buy any LAVA product. They are of dubious quality and their designs are more about looks than real sensitivity.

Do not get hung up on mileage ratings. They are an informal way of trying to relate antenna gain to expected performance. Preamplifier gain is often added to antenna gain to extend these ranges, which is incorrect. Preamps preserve an antenna's performance through the feed system.

You have a tremendous height advantage over the average OTA scenario. Notice that you have LOS, or line-of-sight to stations over 70 miles away, which means they arrive at your location much stronger than they would for someone with an antenna 15 feet above ground at the same distance. This is clearly shown by the NM data in your report.

NM, or noise margin, is TVFool's estimate of how the signal level in the air (before antenns are involved) compares to the minimum signal required for reception. We normally recommend aiming for +15dB in order to protect against localized interference and unusual atmospheric conditions. Note that, except for the weakest Buffalo stations, you don't need ANY antenna gain. You simply need to not lose any signal. Consult the Signal Analysis FAQ linked to on your report for more information.

Therefore, as a first step, get a barebones loop/bunny ears antenna that has NO amplifier. If that doesn't work, you could try a Terk HDTVi, the FV-HD-30, or the DB2e. Other opinions are welcome.

Good luck!

Electron · 25-Dec-2011, 3:36 PM

DO NOT use a amplified antenna of any type or kind for reception of local tv stations, the amplifier will overload from the strong signals and be the cause of bad or no reception. DO NOT use a lava , lavas are cheap flimsy junk. I recommend a Winegard MS1000 antenna , inside or outside. If you have a balcony to the south , put the MS1000 on the south balcony for reception of the Canada and USA digital stations.

raven007 · 25-Dec-2011, 4:50 PM

Double post.

Dave Loudin · 25-Dec-2011, 5:20 PM

Personally, I would not recommend an omnidirectional antenna in this case. While the convenience of setting and forgetting is attractive, I am concerned about multipath from the close-in towers. Better to have modest discrimination against off-axis paths right off the bat. Besides, a simple loop with rods shouldn't cost more than $10.

raven007 · 25-Dec-2011, 5:38 PM

Thanks, guys!

OK, no Lava antennas and no preamp.

I did a bit more reading - it does not look like Antennas Direct DB2e support VHF. And Toronto has stations that are VHF. It looks like Buffalo is all UHF, not sure if they plan to convert to VHF.

Would aiming antenna in one direction be a problem since the difference between Toronto and Buffalo is ~50-55 degrees? Or if I aim for Buffalo I should pick up Toronto anyway? Would pointing somewhat away from Toronto reduce the chance of overload?

I am not sure about condominium rules re: antenna on a balcony.

Are the following antennas not amplified and would they work for my purposes? I would put an antenna right in front of south facing window.
I guess I need ClearStream2 with as it has a higher UHF gain.

ClearStream2™ Complete Long-Range VHF/UHF Digital TV (DTV) Antenna Combo Pack
http://overtheair.saveandreplay.com/...2_Complete.asp
Max gain: 10.4 dBi UHF;3.1dBi VHF

Antennas Direct ClearStream5
http://overtheair.saveandreplay.com/...stream5_C5.asp
Max gain: 4.9 dBi UHF; 7.6 dBi VHF
VHF Range: 65 Miles+

If I can put the antenna on a balcony, would this not be beter? I've read somewhere but can't find it now that it has gain >15dBi
7. Channel Master 8-bay HD Antenna (CM4228HD) Free HDTV Channels
http://www.angelelectronicsshop.com/...lmaster/Detail

Electron · 25-Dec-2011, 6:58 PM

Here is a flat coax for getting the signal from the balcomy to the inside. Please be nice to the flat coax , do not slam windows or doors on it. http://www.amazon.com/Flat-Cable-TV-.../dp/B0002KR74A. . http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/33-10935 . . At http://www.solidsignal.com the , fc-300lx

raven007 · 27-Dec-2011, 7:16 PM

Thanks for for replies. I did a bit of testing.

I borrowed Terk Antenna, and I'm only getting 2 digital channels and one snowy analog channel:
CFTO-DT 9 (9.1)
CH-CH-DT 11 (11.1)

P.S. I'm still not sure if outdoor (balcony) antenna would be allowed here, as in the condo agreement it says that satellite dishes and all other outdoor installations must be approved by board of directors and condominium is still in construction stage.
I definitely can't put CM4228HD indoors but I can squeeze ClearStream2V VHF/UHF Digital TV antenna in.

GroundUrMast · 27-Dec-2011, 8:29 PM

There are both amplified and non-amplified models in the Terk product line. You need to be certain you are using a non-amplified antenna.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2828

raven007 · 28-Dec-2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

There are both amplified and non-amplified models in the Terk product line. You need to be certain you are using a non-amplified antenna.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2828

Antenna was fine - it was me (or TV). In TV settings, I had to set "cable" to "OFF". Not sure why but that is what Sony needs (I did not have any other cables connected to TV).

I got 31 digital and a few "white" analogs. I got some that are not even in TV Fool Report, but missing some from there too. I'd compare tomorrow and post results.

Would ClearStream2V VHF/UHF be an improvement for me to pick up the missing channels?

Electron · 28-Dec-2011, 4:31 AM

The balcony is part of your living unit and is under your direct control. No one else can use your balcony , it is not a public access place. Barbaque grills live on the balcony , bicycles live on the balcony , chairs and tables live on the balcony. You will not be afixing the antenna or antenna stand to the balcony or walls with any type or kind of nails or screws or bolts. You will be using a tripod stand that stands on the floor of the balcony , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html

Dave Loudin · 28-Dec-2011, 4:34 PM

Careful, you do not know the differences between Canadian and American regulations on this point. Our friends to the north do not have the legal protections on the Federal level that we enjory with regards to external antenna installations.

Electron · 28-Dec-2011, 9:12 PM

The kernal of doubt. Even so it is Ok to think clearly about the situation. Thinking is a legal activity.

Dave Loudin · 28-Dec-2011, 9:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron

The balcony is part of your living unit and is under your direct control.

I was trying to add something to this statement. In Canada, there is no Federal regulation concerning external antennas. What the OP can do is strictly up to his lease or condo by-laws. No one south of the border can say with confidence what is permitted in any particular circumstance.

raven007 · 29-Dec-2011, 2:14 AM

Not sure why my reply from yesterday wasn't posted, but anyway:

I have an exclusive use of the balcony but I do not own it. I think we don't even own outside of the doors. It would probably be OK unless someone complaints, but I do not want to end up with $100 antenna that I can't use.

After playing with TV settings (I had to set cable to "OFF"), I got 31 digital and a few "white" analog channels.

Would ClearStream2V antenna help me get the missing channels?

---
It looks like I'm missing mostly analog channels

Analog
CBLT 5
CFMT-TV 47
CIII-TV 41 (not sure if digital CIII-TV is the same - 41.1)
CJMT-TV 69
CITY-TV 57

CITS-TV 36 (altough it is at 202 degrees, so may be difficult to get)
CKVR-TV 3 (altough it is at 350 degrees, so may be difficult to get)
CIII-TV 6 (altough it is at 240 degrees, so may be difficult to get)
CKCO-TV 13 (altough it is at 254 degrees, so may be difficult to get)
CIII-TV 27 (not sure if digital CIII-TV is the same - 41.1)
WBNF-CA 15 (it is 52 miles away)

Digital
CITY-DT 44.1
CJMT-DT 44.1 (two channels fighting for one spot?)
CFMT-DT 64.1
CKXT-DT 66.1
CKXT-DT 15.1 (not a typo, same name as 66.1)
WNYO-DT 49 (no .1? strange)
WBBZ-TV 67.1 (tvfool's chart says path - 2Edge, which is kinda strange at 151 degree angle)

I do not get any of "Grey: These channels are very weak and will most likely require extreme measures to try and pick them up". Whatever is between 180 and 360 degrees has to go through the building; so I do not really expect to pick that up.

Other channels that I'm missing from here:
http://www.remotecentral.com/hdtv/index.html

This TV 67-2
METV 67-3 (don't care, as I get it in 720p/2.0)
Daystar Television Network 67-4
WUTV-DT 29-1

Supposed to be far/hard to receive - about 10 stations out of Rochester.

Ditchit · 29-Dec-2011, 4:26 AM

Hi Raven,
After analyzing your post [http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0331a21a0010e] its apparent that you are living directly west of Toronto[transmitter#1]and north east of Grand Island Buffalo[transmitter#2 (nb. there are others, but lets focus on these)].
Being able to get the best possible reception with the most possible channels its always best to get the exact coordinates and eliminate all interference.
However we all know, that's never gonna happen, so lets work with what we have being the coordinates and the channels available.
The coordinates as per your post indicates that you will need to point your an antenna EAST for Toronto [with a compass @91^] and another antenna SOUTH EAST for Grand Island Buffalo [ with a compass @ 146^].
The span on these [#1 vs#2] are rather far apart [~46^] and unfortunately the ozone is not always in our favour.
The channels which are mostly available ranges from Virtual channel #2-#69
These channels operates on VHF and UHF bands [54 -812 mhz]
channel 2-13 on VHF
channel 14-69 on UHF
I will not get into the complexities of why...but instead focus on your needs.
Using an indoor antenna will allow you to get ~ 6 local channels from Toronto.
Having an outdoor antenna pointing in either of the directions [coordinates above] will yield a bigger result.
So what will work best in your favour?
Factoring living in (Condo/High Rise) you do have the right to owing an antenna [but not secured to building]
This then will be your ideal option [which should now enable you to have access to ~28 “channels”.
http://www.durhamradio.com/ant-7287-...v-antenna.html
for a mount I would also recommend:
http://www.durhamradio.com/dga6226-d...m-antenna.html
Amplifier?
No, based on where you are located in comparison to the transmitting towers along with the use of only 1 TV; an amplifier will not be needed.
I do hope that this will help...

Dave Loudin · 29-Dec-2011, 11:41 AM

Raven, you've made it a little hard to follow, but I think I'm with you.

Sites like TVFool have to rely on the publicly available databases from the FCC and Industry Canada to determine the technical parameters of stations and their status. IC's database has gotten way behind with current operations during the analog shutdown, so analog stations no longer on the air and digital stations that were using an interim channel assignment still show on the TVFool report. The status table you linked to at remotecentral explains the shifts some stations made.

One more comment: when you refer to the RF channel (real channel) used, do not append a -1. That notation is for the virtual channel only.

So, applying what we know, you have virtually no analog stations available any more. (I am curious about what those "white analog" channels you got are.) As far as the digital stations go, the only ones truly missing are CITY 44, WNYO 49, WBBZ 7, and WUTV 14. CITY has not been transmitting from its final location, but it may be now. Co-owned CJMT is in the same situation, so if you get that, you should get CITY. In any case, the switch to their permanent facility will happen any day now, so your issue should be cleared up.

For WNYO and WUTV, stepping up to a C2 model for a little more gain seems appropriate. WBBZ's antenna is farther away from the others and is mounted low on its tower, so that is why it is not line-of-site to you. You're going to need a VHF antenna with more gain than any of the antennas we are talking about can provide.

I'm still sticking with the C2e, as it has been redesigned for the new limited UHF band of 14-51, and that will provide more gain at channel 14 than the others will. Yes, I know you have a couple of VHFs (REAL channel, not virtual), but they are SO strong that the C2e should still provide enough signal to your TV. If not, there's a $10 fix that's not too complicated.

Good luck!

raven007 · 29-Dec-2011, 11:53 PM

2Dichit

That helps, thanks. I do get ~ 28 channels now, indoor. I'll check after New Year re: antenna on a balcony.

How good is Digiwave brand though? I've read reviews and most of them are not too great.

2Dave Loudin
I'm getting Global on 27, and snow on 22. Sorry, what's C2e?

Dave Loudin · 30-Dec-2011, 12:33 AM

Got my nomenclature scrambled... I meant the DB2e!